Classic American West Coast Boxing
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Great piece on Joe Brown, Roger. For my money, he beats Duran and Mayweather; as would Carlos Ortiz.
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
White Men Can Dance
Joe Louis would charter a couple of cars on the train and invite his friends and have a party.They'd ride up to let's say Niagara Falls and back and have a good 'ol time.Sometimes Louis would hire a band like Basie's or Ellington's ,or sometimes he'd have the music played through a sound system .Joe Louis might have come off as being a little tongue tied in public,but he was a hep cat amongst the Harlemites.He wasn't a square when it came to music or picking out his threads. And his taste in the ladies was impeccable-black or white.
You can add Archie Moore,Henry Armstrong,Ezzard Charles,and Jersey Joe Walcott to that list of merry makers.But on the other side of the coin,I wonder where the white guys found their rhythms.Back in the 40's dance bands were mostly segregated. It wasn't until the big rooms in Manhattan closed around midnight that the white musicians would then trek north to Harlem and then jam together with the brothers in the clubs like a big happy fraternity.
Benny Goodman was the first bandleader who started to mix black musicians into his group.Teddy Wilson,Lionel Hampton,and Charlie Christian were some of the first negroes to share the spotlight with the likes of Harry James and Gene Krupa.
But if you had to pick the foremost band of the 40's it would have to be Glenn Miler's outfit.It was his unique sound that captured the ear of his listeners. He stumbled upon it by accident. Ray Noble,another bandleader,was experimenting with putting a clarinet as the lead with the rest of the reed section playing in harmony.That Glenn Miller sound still resonates to this day.
It's hard to say if the blacks during Louis' time bought into Glenn Miller. Miller's band was drew the color line.Then again the all black groups had mostly a colored following unless they performed in joints like the Cotton Club or Sugar Ray's uptown.
Anyway,when it came to jitterbugging the brothers didn't have a monopoly on it. The white kids could shake their booties just as good.
Glenn Miller-I Got Rhythm
Joe Louis would charter a couple of cars on the train and invite his friends and have a party.They'd ride up to let's say Niagara Falls and back and have a good 'ol time.Sometimes Louis would hire a band like Basie's or Ellington's ,or sometimes he'd have the music played through a sound system .Joe Louis might have come off as being a little tongue tied in public,but he was a hep cat amongst the Harlemites.He wasn't a square when it came to music or picking out his threads. And his taste in the ladies was impeccable-black or white.
You can add Archie Moore,Henry Armstrong,Ezzard Charles,and Jersey Joe Walcott to that list of merry makers.But on the other side of the coin,I wonder where the white guys found their rhythms.Back in the 40's dance bands were mostly segregated. It wasn't until the big rooms in Manhattan closed around midnight that the white musicians would then trek north to Harlem and then jam together with the brothers in the clubs like a big happy fraternity.
Benny Goodman was the first bandleader who started to mix black musicians into his group.Teddy Wilson,Lionel Hampton,and Charlie Christian were some of the first negroes to share the spotlight with the likes of Harry James and Gene Krupa.
But if you had to pick the foremost band of the 40's it would have to be Glenn Miler's outfit.It was his unique sound that captured the ear of his listeners. He stumbled upon it by accident. Ray Noble,another bandleader,was experimenting with putting a clarinet as the lead with the rest of the reed section playing in harmony.That Glenn Miller sound still resonates to this day.
It's hard to say if the blacks during Louis' time bought into Glenn Miller. Miller's band was drew the color line.Then again the all black groups had mostly a colored following unless they performed in joints like the Cotton Club or Sugar Ray's uptown.
Anyway,when it came to jitterbugging the brothers didn't have a monopoly on it. The white kids could shake their booties just as good.
Glenn Miller-I Got Rhythm
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Mugging
When willie Pep lost his first pro fight he must have felt that got mugged.The Wil 'O The Wisp got grabbed,thrown around,elbowed,and half strangled by Sammy Angott who packed on more weight above Willie's featherweight limit. Angott will never go down in history as being a great fighter.but he knew what he had to do if had a chance to tag Pep with his first loss.
They called Angott "The Clutch." He was a dirty fighter but that was his strength,and all he knew how to do. He was no cutey in the ring, and to have tried to outbox Pep would have been impossible. Later,Sandy Saddler would use similar tactics to subdue Willie.
Floyd Mayweather Jr. went through the ranks never losing a fight. He was a modern day Willie Pep. A maser boxer. He was loose as a goose in there.Roy Jones Jr. was similar in style when he was in his prime.
Focusing on Mayweather,I could never understand the strategies used by his opponents. With the exception of De La Hoya, Mayweather's opponents thought they could outbox him. When I saw Manny Pacquiao come out for the opening round and settle in mid ring I knew the fight was over.There was no way PacMan had the skills to outbox Mayweather.
I thought De La Hoya had the right idea by backing Floyd against the ropes but for some reason Oscar took his foot off the gas.
Slick fighters don't like pressure.Smokin' Joe gave Ali fits with pressure.Gene Fullmer and Jake LaMotta made Ray Robinson hang on by pressing him. Julio Cesar Chavez was on Hector Camacho's chest throughout their fight.Roberto Duran didn't let Sugar Ray Leonard up for air in their first fight.
For me, Floyd Mayweather caught a lucky break.He fought some good fighters who didn't take full advantage of what they needed to do to win.They let Floyd fight HIS fight.
Willie Pep
When willie Pep lost his first pro fight he must have felt that got mugged.The Wil 'O The Wisp got grabbed,thrown around,elbowed,and half strangled by Sammy Angott who packed on more weight above Willie's featherweight limit. Angott will never go down in history as being a great fighter.but he knew what he had to do if had a chance to tag Pep with his first loss.
They called Angott "The Clutch." He was a dirty fighter but that was his strength,and all he knew how to do. He was no cutey in the ring, and to have tried to outbox Pep would have been impossible. Later,Sandy Saddler would use similar tactics to subdue Willie.
Floyd Mayweather Jr. went through the ranks never losing a fight. He was a modern day Willie Pep. A maser boxer. He was loose as a goose in there.Roy Jones Jr. was similar in style when he was in his prime.
Focusing on Mayweather,I could never understand the strategies used by his opponents. With the exception of De La Hoya, Mayweather's opponents thought they could outbox him. When I saw Manny Pacquiao come out for the opening round and settle in mid ring I knew the fight was over.There was no way PacMan had the skills to outbox Mayweather.
I thought De La Hoya had the right idea by backing Floyd against the ropes but for some reason Oscar took his foot off the gas.
Slick fighters don't like pressure.Smokin' Joe gave Ali fits with pressure.Gene Fullmer and Jake LaMotta made Ray Robinson hang on by pressing him. Julio Cesar Chavez was on Hector Camacho's chest throughout their fight.Roberto Duran didn't let Sugar Ray Leonard up for air in their first fight.
For me, Floyd Mayweather caught a lucky break.He fought some good fighters who didn't take full advantage of what they needed to do to win.They let Floyd fight HIS fight.
Willie Pep
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Press A Weight,Get A Lift
When I was frequenting the gyms I never heard fighters talk about any kind of supplemental training methods or regimens when it came to lifting weights.Ken Norton had a body that looked like it was sculpted by Michelangelo but I never saw him lift a weight.In fact I never saw any weights in any of the boxing gyms around town.Archie Moore's ABC club for boys didn't have a set of weights. Moore wouldn't have known how to instruct anyone with barbells anyway.Burke Emery the same way. He was like all the trainers of his day. Weights were suppose to make a fighter muscle bound.Slow him up. The size of a fighter's bicep didn't mean that he could get any added power into his punches.
Angelo Dundee was old school.When he was learning his trade early on in Stillman's Gym from guys like Ray Arcel and Charley Goldman barbells were for "dumbbells" who considered themselves "Physical Culturalists"-guys that liked to pose in front of a mirror and fall in love with themselves. All that posing and flexing had a weird connotation about it.It wasn't even considered a sport.The irony of it was that these dudes that went in for big muscles were not thought of of the manly ilk anyway.
Of all the sports, weightlifting has had the least appeal with boxing. All the other sports have some sort of weightlifting gym attached to its training facility. It's hard to imagine even a high school football program without the team working out in the weight room.
I"ve never heard a fighter give any credit to weight training as a part of him winning a championship. I can't name a weight trainer who has been hired on to help a fighter become successful.
I used to lift a lot of weights. But I was power lifter, not one of those guys who shaved his body and then smeared oil all over it. But when it came time for me to workout with the fighters all that strength never was applicable when it came to boxing execution.
When I think of Arnold Schwarzenegger posing in his bun huggers with the contour of his little thimble dick pressing out like a pimple(that's what all those steroids do for you.Shrink your dick because your balls shut down from popping all those roids)and him calling dudes "Girly Men". instead of him being hung like a stud he's got a crotch like a philly.
Thimble Dick
When I was frequenting the gyms I never heard fighters talk about any kind of supplemental training methods or regimens when it came to lifting weights.Ken Norton had a body that looked like it was sculpted by Michelangelo but I never saw him lift a weight.In fact I never saw any weights in any of the boxing gyms around town.Archie Moore's ABC club for boys didn't have a set of weights. Moore wouldn't have known how to instruct anyone with barbells anyway.Burke Emery the same way. He was like all the trainers of his day. Weights were suppose to make a fighter muscle bound.Slow him up. The size of a fighter's bicep didn't mean that he could get any added power into his punches.
Angelo Dundee was old school.When he was learning his trade early on in Stillman's Gym from guys like Ray Arcel and Charley Goldman barbells were for "dumbbells" who considered themselves "Physical Culturalists"-guys that liked to pose in front of a mirror and fall in love with themselves. All that posing and flexing had a weird connotation about it.It wasn't even considered a sport.The irony of it was that these dudes that went in for big muscles were not thought of of the manly ilk anyway.
Of all the sports, weightlifting has had the least appeal with boxing. All the other sports have some sort of weightlifting gym attached to its training facility. It's hard to imagine even a high school football program without the team working out in the weight room.
I"ve never heard a fighter give any credit to weight training as a part of him winning a championship. I can't name a weight trainer who has been hired on to help a fighter become successful.
I used to lift a lot of weights. But I was power lifter, not one of those guys who shaved his body and then smeared oil all over it. But when it came time for me to workout with the fighters all that strength never was applicable when it came to boxing execution.
When I think of Arnold Schwarzenegger posing in his bun huggers with the contour of his little thimble dick pressing out like a pimple(that's what all those steroids do for you.Shrink your dick because your balls shut down from popping all those roids)and him calling dudes "Girly Men". instead of him being hung like a stud he's got a crotch like a philly.
Thimble Dick
Last edited by dagosd2000 on 30 Jun 2022, 19:08, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Roger: Did Moore or Emery ever talk about karate or other martial arts ?
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Mytth
If Jack Dempsey hadn't of hooked up with Doc Kearns ,The Manassa Mauler wouldn't have even been a footnote in boxing lore.Prior to their partnership Dempsey was a struggling,half starved pug who hard a time finding a four round prelim to make 5 bucks so he could buy a beer in the local saloon and then then scarf a few sandwiches from the plate on the bar.He went through managers who had as much interest in him as one of those sandwiches, Dempsey rode the rods most of the time out West and found sleeping quarters on any old bench in the park.He wasn't very good back then. Sometimes he'd win. Sometimes he didn't.His name wouldn't exactly sell out the arena.
Doc Kearns was a word of the mouth hustler of all sorts and sometimes fight promoter according to his bragging. Dempsey was desperate and gullible at the time,and had about as much moxie as a bum who had just fallen off the turnip truck.But Kearns delivered on all his promises to take Dempsey to the top of the heap and put the most money into his pocket than any fighter prior. Granted, Kearns got his cut and took out advances but Dempsey, when he finally had had enough of Gene Tunney, had made over 5 million dollars with Kearns steering the ship. That not only included fights,but starring in movies,stage productions,and vaudeville routines with Doc with Dempsey the straight man.
Tex Rickard had a hand in all this but Tex would have never been a part of this clique if Kearns hadn't have led the way.As the first Tunney fight was building up Dempsey had a falling out with Kearns. He wanted a bigger slice of the pie is what it boiled down to. There were lawsuits and court judgements.But Dempsey was fixed for life by that time. Even holding that grudge Dempsey admitted that Kearns made him into what he was even though he didn't like the guy anymore.
Later, after the split Kearns told everyone that he used to load up Dempsey's gloves with plater of Paris. It wasn't just the Willard fight where Dempsey was the underdog and Kearns made a 10 thousand dollar side bet at 10 to 1 that his charge would stop the big Kansan in the first frame. There was that 17 second KO of the number one challenger Fred Fulton who Jack had put to sleep in 17 seconds of the first round, the ref's count included.
After Dempsey won the title he fought Billy Miske who would be dead three months later from the effects of Bright's Disease.The he caught Bill Brennan with a lucky punch in his next defense when Brennan was winning going away.Then there was the first million dollar gate with the 160 pound Carpentier. Kearns then robbed all the banks in Shelby ,Montana without using a gun after Dempsey and Tommy Gibbons played cat and mouse with each other.Firpo was next and he should have won the title on a DQ after knocking Dempsey through the ropes into the laps of the scribes. The final two bouts were with Tunney where Dempsey lost 19 0f the 20 rounds.Six defenses in seven years.One of the most protected fighters in history. No matter what Dempsey said he ducked Wills in the meantime and they would never let him fight in New York again. And sandwiched between the Tunney losses Dempsey was about to get knocked out by Jack Sharkey when he hit Sharkey low,and when he turned to complain to the referee, Dempsey clipped him with a big desperation hook to pull it out of the fire.
But without Doc Kearns to lead him around by the nose Jack Dempsey would have wound up being one of those obscure boxing non entities in the BoxRec archives.
Doc Kearns
If Jack Dempsey hadn't of hooked up with Doc Kearns ,The Manassa Mauler wouldn't have even been a footnote in boxing lore.Prior to their partnership Dempsey was a struggling,half starved pug who hard a time finding a four round prelim to make 5 bucks so he could buy a beer in the local saloon and then then scarf a few sandwiches from the plate on the bar.He went through managers who had as much interest in him as one of those sandwiches, Dempsey rode the rods most of the time out West and found sleeping quarters on any old bench in the park.He wasn't very good back then. Sometimes he'd win. Sometimes he didn't.His name wouldn't exactly sell out the arena.
Doc Kearns was a word of the mouth hustler of all sorts and sometimes fight promoter according to his bragging. Dempsey was desperate and gullible at the time,and had about as much moxie as a bum who had just fallen off the turnip truck.But Kearns delivered on all his promises to take Dempsey to the top of the heap and put the most money into his pocket than any fighter prior. Granted, Kearns got his cut and took out advances but Dempsey, when he finally had had enough of Gene Tunney, had made over 5 million dollars with Kearns steering the ship. That not only included fights,but starring in movies,stage productions,and vaudeville routines with Doc with Dempsey the straight man.
Tex Rickard had a hand in all this but Tex would have never been a part of this clique if Kearns hadn't have led the way.As the first Tunney fight was building up Dempsey had a falling out with Kearns. He wanted a bigger slice of the pie is what it boiled down to. There were lawsuits and court judgements.But Dempsey was fixed for life by that time. Even holding that grudge Dempsey admitted that Kearns made him into what he was even though he didn't like the guy anymore.
Later, after the split Kearns told everyone that he used to load up Dempsey's gloves with plater of Paris. It wasn't just the Willard fight where Dempsey was the underdog and Kearns made a 10 thousand dollar side bet at 10 to 1 that his charge would stop the big Kansan in the first frame. There was that 17 second KO of the number one challenger Fred Fulton who Jack had put to sleep in 17 seconds of the first round, the ref's count included.
After Dempsey won the title he fought Billy Miske who would be dead three months later from the effects of Bright's Disease.The he caught Bill Brennan with a lucky punch in his next defense when Brennan was winning going away.Then there was the first million dollar gate with the 160 pound Carpentier. Kearns then robbed all the banks in Shelby ,Montana without using a gun after Dempsey and Tommy Gibbons played cat and mouse with each other.Firpo was next and he should have won the title on a DQ after knocking Dempsey through the ropes into the laps of the scribes. The final two bouts were with Tunney where Dempsey lost 19 0f the 20 rounds.Six defenses in seven years.One of the most protected fighters in history. No matter what Dempsey said he ducked Wills in the meantime and they would never let him fight in New York again. And sandwiched between the Tunney losses Dempsey was about to get knocked out by Jack Sharkey when he hit Sharkey low,and when he turned to complain to the referee, Dempsey clipped him with a big desperation hook to pull it out of the fire.
But without Doc Kearns to lead him around by the nose Jack Dempsey would have wound up being one of those obscure boxing non entities in the BoxRec archives.
Doc Kearns
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Clearing The Air
There were several things that bothered Jack Dempsey while he was still fighting and after he hung up his gloves.For starters he didn't like to be called a "slacker" by the press and the fans during America's brief participation during World War !.The slur carried over after the war ended and Dempsey felt bitter about the name calling. There were 24 million men who had registered for the draft.Dempsey was one of them. His number never got called. He said he tried joining up with the Navy but that they had lost his paperwork.Then the war ended, and Dempsey soon after won the heavyweight championship.When the first million dollar gate took place at Boyles 30 Acres with him and Georges Carpentierr it was the frog who got thr big hand.Carpentier had fought for France in the war while Dempsey was fighting stiffs.Dempsey didn't like the fact that Americans were cheering a foreigner instead of him.Many years later when World War 2 broke out Dempsey had a buddy on the draft board who got his 45 year old butt into a Coast Guard uniform and made him a captain. Dempsey was a physical defense insrtuctor.For him ,he'd gotten the monkey off his back.
Then there was the talk of Dempsey ducking Harry Wills the number one contender at the time. Dempsey said he would have had no problem with Wills. But Tex Rickard didn't want to promote the fight.He was still catching it for him putting Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries together. Floyd Fitzsimmons said he'd take over and greased Wills' palm up front with 50 grand in cold harsh cash. He then told Dempsey that he'd hand him a million dollars. Instead Fitzsimmons wanted to give Jack 25 g's and the rest later. He kept Dempsey waiting so he backed out of the deal. Of course this was Dempsey's recollection of what happened. Then the New York Athletic Commissioner ,William Muldoon,didn't want the fight to happen. He was afraid of race riots.Dempsey said he'd go along.So instead of Wills it was Gene Tunney who got the shot at the title.
Finally,there's the talk of Dempsey fighting with loaded gloves.Dempsey said when he fought Willard he didn't need to do that to win.However,it was Doc Kearns who let the cat out of the bag. By saying this he also tarnished himself.Doc admitted that Willard's people were in Dempsey's dressing room before the fight but were so stupid they didn't pick up on what was going on.Remember Willard was the favorite.He'd never been off his feet before. In less than a round Dempsey knocked him down 7 times,broke his jaw in 13 places,fractured his cheekbone,busted 4 of his ribs,and knocked his front teeth out.All in less than a round.Kearns had made a side bet taking 10 to 1 for 10 grand that Dempsey would stop Willard in less than a round. When it looked like Dempsey had accomplished that feat he jumped from the ring and immediately took off his wraps.BUt Ollie Pecord the referee yelled to Dempsey to get back into the fight.Wiliard wanted to contuniue.And it did for two more rounds.Williard never touched the canvas again.The only thing Willard had to say when his corner wouldn't let him go out for the 4th round was,"Dempsey's gloves were loaded."
Jack Dempsey may have been the most popular fighter ever. Even Ali I don't think matched him with the fan appeal. A black man,no matter how good he is, will always have those who hate him because of the color of his skin.That went the same for Joe Louis.
Jack Dempsey
There were several things that bothered Jack Dempsey while he was still fighting and after he hung up his gloves.For starters he didn't like to be called a "slacker" by the press and the fans during America's brief participation during World War !.The slur carried over after the war ended and Dempsey felt bitter about the name calling. There were 24 million men who had registered for the draft.Dempsey was one of them. His number never got called. He said he tried joining up with the Navy but that they had lost his paperwork.Then the war ended, and Dempsey soon after won the heavyweight championship.When the first million dollar gate took place at Boyles 30 Acres with him and Georges Carpentierr it was the frog who got thr big hand.Carpentier had fought for France in the war while Dempsey was fighting stiffs.Dempsey didn't like the fact that Americans were cheering a foreigner instead of him.Many years later when World War 2 broke out Dempsey had a buddy on the draft board who got his 45 year old butt into a Coast Guard uniform and made him a captain. Dempsey was a physical defense insrtuctor.For him ,he'd gotten the monkey off his back.
Then there was the talk of Dempsey ducking Harry Wills the number one contender at the time. Dempsey said he would have had no problem with Wills. But Tex Rickard didn't want to promote the fight.He was still catching it for him putting Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries together. Floyd Fitzsimmons said he'd take over and greased Wills' palm up front with 50 grand in cold harsh cash. He then told Dempsey that he'd hand him a million dollars. Instead Fitzsimmons wanted to give Jack 25 g's and the rest later. He kept Dempsey waiting so he backed out of the deal. Of course this was Dempsey's recollection of what happened. Then the New York Athletic Commissioner ,William Muldoon,didn't want the fight to happen. He was afraid of race riots.Dempsey said he'd go along.So instead of Wills it was Gene Tunney who got the shot at the title.
Finally,there's the talk of Dempsey fighting with loaded gloves.Dempsey said when he fought Willard he didn't need to do that to win.However,it was Doc Kearns who let the cat out of the bag. By saying this he also tarnished himself.Doc admitted that Willard's people were in Dempsey's dressing room before the fight but were so stupid they didn't pick up on what was going on.Remember Willard was the favorite.He'd never been off his feet before. In less than a round Dempsey knocked him down 7 times,broke his jaw in 13 places,fractured his cheekbone,busted 4 of his ribs,and knocked his front teeth out.All in less than a round.Kearns had made a side bet taking 10 to 1 for 10 grand that Dempsey would stop Willard in less than a round. When it looked like Dempsey had accomplished that feat he jumped from the ring and immediately took off his wraps.BUt Ollie Pecord the referee yelled to Dempsey to get back into the fight.Wiliard wanted to contuniue.And it did for two more rounds.Williard never touched the canvas again.The only thing Willard had to say when his corner wouldn't let him go out for the 4th round was,"Dempsey's gloves were loaded."
Jack Dempsey may have been the most popular fighter ever. Even Ali I don't think matched him with the fan appeal. A black man,no matter how good he is, will always have those who hate him because of the color of his skin.That went the same for Joe Louis.
Jack Dempsey
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The One Guy He Wouldn't Fight
Jack Dempsey said the only guy he never wanted to face in the ring was Sam Langford.The reason was real simple.Dempsey said he was scared to death of him.One of Dempsey's early managers,John Reisler was always trying to get Dempsey into the ring with Langford.I guess Reisler also managed Sam and told Dempsey he could put the fight together in a blink of an eye.But Dempaey was always adamant.He said Langford was too good for him.This was a time when Langford's best fighting days were behind him and Dempsey was struggling to hold his own with anyone.
I've given it some thought.Dempsey was often accused of drawing the color line.There was the snafu with Harry Wills.Dempsey never got close to Joe Louis until Joe had hung up his gloves.Dempsey thought Max Schmeling would beat Joe Louis again in the rematch.He also thought his boy Max Baer would whip Louis.It wasn't until well after the war that Dempsey opened up the front door of his bar/restaurant to blacks.Jack Dempsey was the most popular fighter during the Roaring 20's (maybe of all time)but his fan club was mainly vanilla white.
So for Dempsey to say that Sam Langford was the only fighter he ducked because he was afraid of him puts him in better standing with colored folks."Dempsey ain't such a bad guy.He was afraid of Sam Langford.He was no racist" they might say in Harlem.
I don't know if I believe any of it. Hey.There's a good one for one of those mythical fights."Who would have won?Jack Dempsey or Sam Langford?"
Go ahead and kick it around if you like.I don't give a damn.
Sam Langford
Jack Dempsey said the only guy he never wanted to face in the ring was Sam Langford.The reason was real simple.Dempsey said he was scared to death of him.One of Dempsey's early managers,John Reisler was always trying to get Dempsey into the ring with Langford.I guess Reisler also managed Sam and told Dempsey he could put the fight together in a blink of an eye.But Dempaey was always adamant.He said Langford was too good for him.This was a time when Langford's best fighting days were behind him and Dempsey was struggling to hold his own with anyone.
I've given it some thought.Dempsey was often accused of drawing the color line.There was the snafu with Harry Wills.Dempsey never got close to Joe Louis until Joe had hung up his gloves.Dempsey thought Max Schmeling would beat Joe Louis again in the rematch.He also thought his boy Max Baer would whip Louis.It wasn't until well after the war that Dempsey opened up the front door of his bar/restaurant to blacks.Jack Dempsey was the most popular fighter during the Roaring 20's (maybe of all time)but his fan club was mainly vanilla white.
So for Dempsey to say that Sam Langford was the only fighter he ducked because he was afraid of him puts him in better standing with colored folks."Dempsey ain't such a bad guy.He was afraid of Sam Langford.He was no racist" they might say in Harlem.
I don't know if I believe any of it. Hey.There's a good one for one of those mythical fights."Who would have won?Jack Dempsey or Sam Langford?"
Go ahead and kick it around if you like.I don't give a damn.
Sam Langford
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
An American Tradition
Probably the two most famous fights on the 4th of July were Tex Rickard's promotional extravaganzas :the championship fight in Reno, Nevada between Jack Johnson and the ex champ and "White Hope" Jim Jeffries;and Jack Dempsey' s destruction of the "White Hope" who finally conquered Johnson,Jess Willard.
I think back on those two fights and Rickard couldn't have put those fights together on a more apropos date-America's Independence Day. The fights were synonymous with a gigantic fireworks display.Rickard would never again promote a heavyweight championship bout with a black man after Jeffries came up way short against Johnson.. Thus Rickard stayed clear of Harry Wills during the 1920's. He didn't want to instigate a backlash of riots and lynchings like what happened before.. Wills was no Jack Johnson,at least when it came to presenting himself in public,but Rickard didn't want to take any chances.Johnson could have painted the middle finger on his forehead. How he never got hanged from the highest tree was a miracle.The government thought they could beat him in the courts on that trumped up Mann Act beef but he fled the country before they could nab him.
Before the fight in Toledo Rickard was afraid that Willard would kill Dempsey. Willard had killed a man in the ring,Bull Young, with a single punch. But it was Willard who almost died that afternoon.
Today in the United States I can't think of any fight between Americans,especially involving heavyweights,that would symbolize the fighting spirit of the good 'ol USA. There's Deontay Wilder.And there's Andy Ruiz who says he's going to fight again. MIchael Hunter? They're all Americans.But you could combine any of those names and put them in the ring and they wouldn't draw flies.But you never know.In this day of of the hype the right people could sell snow to the Eskimos. I'm sure glad I don't have ay Eskimo blood in me.
Tex Rickard
Probably the two most famous fights on the 4th of July were Tex Rickard's promotional extravaganzas :the championship fight in Reno, Nevada between Jack Johnson and the ex champ and "White Hope" Jim Jeffries;and Jack Dempsey' s destruction of the "White Hope" who finally conquered Johnson,Jess Willard.
I think back on those two fights and Rickard couldn't have put those fights together on a more apropos date-America's Independence Day. The fights were synonymous with a gigantic fireworks display.Rickard would never again promote a heavyweight championship bout with a black man after Jeffries came up way short against Johnson.. Thus Rickard stayed clear of Harry Wills during the 1920's. He didn't want to instigate a backlash of riots and lynchings like what happened before.. Wills was no Jack Johnson,at least when it came to presenting himself in public,but Rickard didn't want to take any chances.Johnson could have painted the middle finger on his forehead. How he never got hanged from the highest tree was a miracle.The government thought they could beat him in the courts on that trumped up Mann Act beef but he fled the country before they could nab him.
Before the fight in Toledo Rickard was afraid that Willard would kill Dempsey. Willard had killed a man in the ring,Bull Young, with a single punch. But it was Willard who almost died that afternoon.
Today in the United States I can't think of any fight between Americans,especially involving heavyweights,that would symbolize the fighting spirit of the good 'ol USA. There's Deontay Wilder.And there's Andy Ruiz who says he's going to fight again. MIchael Hunter? They're all Americans.But you could combine any of those names and put them in the ring and they wouldn't draw flies.But you never know.In this day of of the hype the right people could sell snow to the Eskimos. I'm sure glad I don't have ay Eskimo blood in me.
Tex Rickard
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Triple G And Call It A Career
The aficianados in Mexico seem to have taken Canelo Alvarez's loss to Dmitri Bivol in stride. I think they thought like most everyone else including Canelo that their countryman would have little problem capturing a version of the light heavyweight title.But it was evident early in the fight that Alvarez couldn't hurt this guy and like previous opponents Bivol wasn't afraid of him either.Mexico doesn't want to see a rematch and Canelo doesn't want to try his luck again.Bivol is coming into his own.Canelo has passed the point of no return.
So now it's all set up for Canelo and the rubber match with Golovkin. This should be a good fight.Gennadly is even longer in the tooth than Canelo.I think right now Canelo is frustrated.He wants to get back on the winning track again.His apparant invincibility showed a crack in his armor against Bivol.But his fans aren't making any excuses.Their boy got beat fair and square.
But with Golovkin on the docket, Alvarez must win if the aficianados wan't to talk about him in the same breath as Julio Cesar Chavez.At the end Julio had no business being in the ring.Canelo is quite away from that right now. He's still very good.BoxRec thinks of him still as the best P4P in the world.I don't but he's still pretty damn good.
Canelo is shooting off his mouth right now.He's doing a lot of trash talking.That worries me. Maybe he's trying to compensate for some doubts.If he wins he can go out with his ego more or less on solid footing.If he loses he'll fall from grace. If there's a fourth fight both guys I don't think would be worth paying to see in person or on Pay Per View.
Triple G
The aficianados in Mexico seem to have taken Canelo Alvarez's loss to Dmitri Bivol in stride. I think they thought like most everyone else including Canelo that their countryman would have little problem capturing a version of the light heavyweight title.But it was evident early in the fight that Alvarez couldn't hurt this guy and like previous opponents Bivol wasn't afraid of him either.Mexico doesn't want to see a rematch and Canelo doesn't want to try his luck again.Bivol is coming into his own.Canelo has passed the point of no return.
So now it's all set up for Canelo and the rubber match with Golovkin. This should be a good fight.Gennadly is even longer in the tooth than Canelo.I think right now Canelo is frustrated.He wants to get back on the winning track again.His apparant invincibility showed a crack in his armor against Bivol.But his fans aren't making any excuses.Their boy got beat fair and square.
But with Golovkin on the docket, Alvarez must win if the aficianados wan't to talk about him in the same breath as Julio Cesar Chavez.At the end Julio had no business being in the ring.Canelo is quite away from that right now. He's still very good.BoxRec thinks of him still as the best P4P in the world.I don't but he's still pretty damn good.
Canelo is shooting off his mouth right now.He's doing a lot of trash talking.That worries me. Maybe he's trying to compensate for some doubts.If he wins he can go out with his ego more or less on solid footing.If he loses he'll fall from grace. If there's a fourth fight both guys I don't think would be worth paying to see in person or on Pay Per View.
Triple G
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Help Wanted
"Next month we're going to be serving food,"said Jeff the bartender.
I had dropped by Champs Bar to see what was going on with the work trucks parked outside.Jeff was just opening up.The workmen were in the back hammering away.
"What made you decide that?"I asked as he put a glass of club soda on the bar in front of me.
"It wasn't my idea,"he said."Shirley's grandson said he had to do it if he was to keep up with the Bay Hill next door and Fast Times across the street.They serve food and it's killing us.,"
"Yeah,but have you ever eaten that crap?The food is terrible.".
"What the hell do a bunch of drunks know?You put a fancy name for a hot dog on a menu and they turn into a bunch of gourmets."
"So what are you going to haver?"I asked.
"I don't know yet.Shirley's grandson hasn't come up with a menu."
"That means you have to hire more help."
"The word is out but everyone wants to be either a bartender or a waitress.No one wants to be a cook or a dishwasher."
"You mean you can't find a Mexican that wants to be a dishwasher or a cook."
"None have applied.Mexicans don't come in this place."
"You know I just came back from my wife's hometown down below in Mexico and my nephew came over to visit.He was covered with dirt from head to toe.He had just finished working a 60 hour a week pick and shovel construction job making 60 dollars.He'd love to be a cook in this joint or wash dishes."
"You got his phone number?"asked Jeff half joking.
"You know the news puts out all this stuff about these migrants coming up to the border wanting to get to the U.S. to work."Don't let no one kid you .Business wants them because they'll work for minimum wage and won't complain."
"There's a lot of homeless here that don't want to work. They're on the dole and all they care about is getting high."
"Tell me.Have you ever seen a Mexican here begging in the street for money?"
"Come to think of it I haven't."
"Well,I can give you my nephew's phone number if you want it."
"I'd have to run it by the boss."
"Next month we're going to be serving food,"said Jeff the bartender.
I had dropped by Champs Bar to see what was going on with the work trucks parked outside.Jeff was just opening up.The workmen were in the back hammering away.
"What made you decide that?"I asked as he put a glass of club soda on the bar in front of me.
"It wasn't my idea,"he said."Shirley's grandson said he had to do it if he was to keep up with the Bay Hill next door and Fast Times across the street.They serve food and it's killing us.,"
"Yeah,but have you ever eaten that crap?The food is terrible.".
"What the hell do a bunch of drunks know?You put a fancy name for a hot dog on a menu and they turn into a bunch of gourmets."
"So what are you going to haver?"I asked.
"I don't know yet.Shirley's grandson hasn't come up with a menu."
"That means you have to hire more help."
"The word is out but everyone wants to be either a bartender or a waitress.No one wants to be a cook or a dishwasher."
"You mean you can't find a Mexican that wants to be a dishwasher or a cook."
"None have applied.Mexicans don't come in this place."
"You know I just came back from my wife's hometown down below in Mexico and my nephew came over to visit.He was covered with dirt from head to toe.He had just finished working a 60 hour a week pick and shovel construction job making 60 dollars.He'd love to be a cook in this joint or wash dishes."
"You got his phone number?"asked Jeff half joking.
"You know the news puts out all this stuff about these migrants coming up to the border wanting to get to the U.S. to work."Don't let no one kid you .Business wants them because they'll work for minimum wage and won't complain."
"There's a lot of homeless here that don't want to work. They're on the dole and all they care about is getting high."
"Tell me.Have you ever seen a Mexican here begging in the street for money?"
"Come to think of it I haven't."
"Well,I can give you my nephew's phone number if you want it."
"I'd have to run it by the boss."
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
It'll Follow Him Around For The Rest Of His Life
Roberto Duran ,if he really wanted to quit that much,should have stayed in his corner and not answered the bell for the next round. In those two fights with Leonard Duran went from the epitome of greatness, and then fell into the depths of humiliation.Being a macho man in a macho culture he shamed himself, damaging his aura of invincibility irrevocably.Yeah,he had a few good fights after that "No Mas" thing but he never could convince the public that he was once considered the most feared lightweight of all time.
You know he had to be thinking of a way to get out of that second fight.But instead of staying in there and taking a beating, he stops fighting in the middle of the ring,turns his back,and gripes,"No Mas." Bad move Bobby.He broke Ray Arcel's heart. And Freddie Brown was stunned.The country of Panama went limp.(And there's a guy on this forum who cried his eyes out).
Freddie Brown ,on the plane back to Panama, told Duran to make up an excuse.So Bobby told everybody he had a tummy ache.Now who in the hell is going to buy that?That's not very macho anyway. Arcel said that Duran was physically in shape;didn't complain about a tummy ache during the fight. But mentally he had let go of the rope. He flaunted his win over Leonard,let his weight balloon up,and lost his killer instinct. He never really got it back.
Duran is an old man now.He lives in Panama and is sort of a curiosity piece more than a national treasure. Doing what he did in that second fight with Leonard will haunt him forever.He thinks about it everyday.if he hadn't have had to be such a macho guy in and out of the ring that "No Mas" quit job wouldn't have been so dramatic.Like I said,he's an old man now.He's lucky his wife stuck with him through that "little boy" period. He hangs out with his beer drinking pals in the pool hall. He probably can't beat up a high school soccer player.But you know what's good about that?He doesn't care.He doesn't care about all that macho bulls--t. He's a content grandpa, and what would it amount to to pick on him?It ain't worth it.
But at night when he leaves the pool hall he still once in awhile hears "No Mas" being yelled at him from out of the dark. Probably one of those high school soccer players.
Roberto Duran
Roberto Duran's daughter,Irichelle,at the West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame.I was lucky enough to be seated next to her.Charming and not macho at all
Roberto Duran ,if he really wanted to quit that much,should have stayed in his corner and not answered the bell for the next round. In those two fights with Leonard Duran went from the epitome of greatness, and then fell into the depths of humiliation.Being a macho man in a macho culture he shamed himself, damaging his aura of invincibility irrevocably.Yeah,he had a few good fights after that "No Mas" thing but he never could convince the public that he was once considered the most feared lightweight of all time.
You know he had to be thinking of a way to get out of that second fight.But instead of staying in there and taking a beating, he stops fighting in the middle of the ring,turns his back,and gripes,"No Mas." Bad move Bobby.He broke Ray Arcel's heart. And Freddie Brown was stunned.The country of Panama went limp.(And there's a guy on this forum who cried his eyes out).
Freddie Brown ,on the plane back to Panama, told Duran to make up an excuse.So Bobby told everybody he had a tummy ache.Now who in the hell is going to buy that?That's not very macho anyway. Arcel said that Duran was physically in shape;didn't complain about a tummy ache during the fight. But mentally he had let go of the rope. He flaunted his win over Leonard,let his weight balloon up,and lost his killer instinct. He never really got it back.
Duran is an old man now.He lives in Panama and is sort of a curiosity piece more than a national treasure. Doing what he did in that second fight with Leonard will haunt him forever.He thinks about it everyday.if he hadn't have had to be such a macho guy in and out of the ring that "No Mas" quit job wouldn't have been so dramatic.Like I said,he's an old man now.He's lucky his wife stuck with him through that "little boy" period. He hangs out with his beer drinking pals in the pool hall. He probably can't beat up a high school soccer player.But you know what's good about that?He doesn't care.He doesn't care about all that macho bulls--t. He's a content grandpa, and what would it amount to to pick on him?It ain't worth it.
But at night when he leaves the pool hall he still once in awhile hears "No Mas" being yelled at him from out of the dark. Probably one of those high school soccer players.
Roberto Duran
Roberto Duran's daughter,Irichelle,at the West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame.I was lucky enough to be seated next to her.Charming and not macho at all
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Meshugah
Barney Ross and Jack Ruby grew up childhood pals down on Maxwell Street in Chicago. They grew up when times were rough and Jews took a lot of s--t from just about everybody.Ross wound up being one of the best fighters of his era and won the welterweight championship of the world. He beat some of the best including Jimmy McLarnin,Ceferino Garcia,Billy Petrolle,and Tony Canzoneri.In 79 fights he only lost 4 times.When Henry Armstrong carried him the last few rounds to win Ross' title the kid from Maxwell Street afterwards hung up his gloves. Ross' got his rear handed to him against Armstrong and pled with Henry to make him last till the end.Armstrong, recognizing Ross' past performances and heart, didn't have a problem letting Barney stay on his feet.
I've always thought that Barney Ross was one of the most advanced boxers of his day when most of the pugs still carried their hands low and waded in to slug it out..Ross would pick 'em apart.
Jack Ruby on the other hand wanted to prove how tough he was by being an errand boy for Al Capone. But Ruby was known back then as Jack Rubenstein,his legal name.He later changed his name to "Ruby" when he relocated to Dallas, ,Texas and opened up his strip club,The Carousel.
My father remembered Ruby from my father's days of hanging out in The Patch with the other aspiring dago toughs who wanted to get ahead in The Outfit by any means necessary.I'll never forget when Jack Ruby on national television stepped out of that crowd in the Dallas Police Station basement and shot Lee Harvey Oswald.Talk about a reeealy beeg show! When they finally subdued Ruby and announced to the world who he was,my father who was sitting there in front of the tube,yelled,"Hey,I know that guy.His name isn't Ruby.It's Rubenstein! I remember him from Chicago.He was a little crazy.The Jews called him "Meshugah.""
I then began probing my father for further information.
"He was kind of a nut,"added my father."Always had this thing about showing everybody that the Jews were tough and you couldn't push them around.But he wasn't really dangerous.Just had a temper and would fly off the handle."
To make a long story short and not get into the conspiracy thing too deep,Ruby was told to rub out Lee Oswald to prevent there being a trial. It was the only thing that went wrong with the JFK hit. Oswald was supposed to be killed in the Texas Theater but was apprehended. That's when Ruby got a call.
Well,I guess you could say Ruby showed everybody how tough he was but he instantly became one of the most unpopular guys around. It was Ruby who got a trial but it was carefully maneuvered that he would take the rap for 1st degree murder. He got sentenced to life but only lived a few years in jail dying of cancer.Ironically he was about to get a second trial on an appeal but mysteriously the judge and Jack kicked the bucket before things got rolling.Ruby knew a lot of things that if he testified would have brought the Johnson administration down including Lyndon,J. Edgar Hoover,and all the oil tycoons in Texas.
It was during the appeal process that Barney Ross was raising money to help his childhood pal to put together a defense team.But when Ruby was put in the pine box it was all said and done.Jack Ruby died a lonely man. He was termed a "Lone Nut" like the guy he killed,Lee Harvey Oswald. But neither guy was "lone" nor being a "nut."It's just the way the government wanted to paint them to the public.They got themselves into something they couldn't get out of.
Barney Ross
Barney Ross and Jack Ruby grew up childhood pals down on Maxwell Street in Chicago. They grew up when times were rough and Jews took a lot of s--t from just about everybody.Ross wound up being one of the best fighters of his era and won the welterweight championship of the world. He beat some of the best including Jimmy McLarnin,Ceferino Garcia,Billy Petrolle,and Tony Canzoneri.In 79 fights he only lost 4 times.When Henry Armstrong carried him the last few rounds to win Ross' title the kid from Maxwell Street afterwards hung up his gloves. Ross' got his rear handed to him against Armstrong and pled with Henry to make him last till the end.Armstrong, recognizing Ross' past performances and heart, didn't have a problem letting Barney stay on his feet.
I've always thought that Barney Ross was one of the most advanced boxers of his day when most of the pugs still carried their hands low and waded in to slug it out..Ross would pick 'em apart.
Jack Ruby on the other hand wanted to prove how tough he was by being an errand boy for Al Capone. But Ruby was known back then as Jack Rubenstein,his legal name.He later changed his name to "Ruby" when he relocated to Dallas, ,Texas and opened up his strip club,The Carousel.
My father remembered Ruby from my father's days of hanging out in The Patch with the other aspiring dago toughs who wanted to get ahead in The Outfit by any means necessary.I'll never forget when Jack Ruby on national television stepped out of that crowd in the Dallas Police Station basement and shot Lee Harvey Oswald.Talk about a reeealy beeg show! When they finally subdued Ruby and announced to the world who he was,my father who was sitting there in front of the tube,yelled,"Hey,I know that guy.His name isn't Ruby.It's Rubenstein! I remember him from Chicago.He was a little crazy.The Jews called him "Meshugah.""
I then began probing my father for further information.
"He was kind of a nut,"added my father."Always had this thing about showing everybody that the Jews were tough and you couldn't push them around.But he wasn't really dangerous.Just had a temper and would fly off the handle."
To make a long story short and not get into the conspiracy thing too deep,Ruby was told to rub out Lee Oswald to prevent there being a trial. It was the only thing that went wrong with the JFK hit. Oswald was supposed to be killed in the Texas Theater but was apprehended. That's when Ruby got a call.
Well,I guess you could say Ruby showed everybody how tough he was but he instantly became one of the most unpopular guys around. It was Ruby who got a trial but it was carefully maneuvered that he would take the rap for 1st degree murder. He got sentenced to life but only lived a few years in jail dying of cancer.Ironically he was about to get a second trial on an appeal but mysteriously the judge and Jack kicked the bucket before things got rolling.Ruby knew a lot of things that if he testified would have brought the Johnson administration down including Lyndon,J. Edgar Hoover,and all the oil tycoons in Texas.
It was during the appeal process that Barney Ross was raising money to help his childhood pal to put together a defense team.But when Ruby was put in the pine box it was all said and done.Jack Ruby died a lonely man. He was termed a "Lone Nut" like the guy he killed,Lee Harvey Oswald. But neither guy was "lone" nor being a "nut."It's just the way the government wanted to paint them to the public.They got themselves into something they couldn't get out of.
Barney Ross
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Scar Tissue
When I finally located Jose Napoles in Ciudad Juarez several years ago I didn't know what to expect. I felt lucky that i had found him after a two day search. He was sitting in front of his rented house in a poor section of the city not that far from the U.S. border smoking a cigar. He seemed very happy waving at everyone though most were oblivious to his gestures.
I gave him that painting of him.He didn't say if he liked it or didn't, nor did he say "thank you." He didn't even look at it.He didn't come off as being rude.He was just absorbed his own little world and didn't seem to respond to any outside stimulation.I didn't know where to start a conversation. I didn't want to come off with a lot of rote questions like "Who was the best fighter you fought?" or "What was your toughest fight?".There was no breaking the ice.He was happy from the get go and I could have asked him about anything and he would have felt at ease .There was no seriousness in his manner.No depth of reflection.No philosophical words of wisdom.He said he was waiting for his wife to come home from shopping.She had taken the truck to run her errands.In short time I sensed that the dementia was toying with him. The clincher was when he told me that last year he went to Cuba to visit his mother and father.
After realizing that there wouldn't be anything gathered of significance from our conversation I bounced more or less innocuous queries off the former champ. Like "Can you still get it up anymore?"He got a kick out of that one. He didn't say "yes" or "no." In fact I think he forgot what I had asked him before he could answer.
I wasn't disappointed that he had slipped to the point that it was like talking to a child.That's just the way it was.There was nothing I could have done about it.As he sat there puffing away on his cigar I looked at the old scar tissue around his eyes.I thought of all those big fights he had in LA.Here was a black Cuban who was embraced by Mexico as one of their own. Jose Napoles had fallen in love with the country. He fit like a glove.He was as popular as any athlete in Mexico. In fact the president of the country,Diaz Ordaz,intervened with the state department to expediate making him a Mexican citizen.That was the first time a president had done something like that.
So there was my favorite fighter when I was into the sport smoking a cigar in front of his house waving to everyone as they walked by ignoring him. I wound up giving him 20 dollars when I left telling him to buy some more cigars. He called me "Campeon" and we embraced.
I'll remember that day for the rest of my life. Jose waited for his wife to come home so she could cook him dinner.She probably asked him where he got the painting.I bet he couldn't remember.
Jose puffing away.There's his wife's truck in the backround.
Years later I saw this picture on the internet.There's my painting hanging on his wall.
When I finally located Jose Napoles in Ciudad Juarez several years ago I didn't know what to expect. I felt lucky that i had found him after a two day search. He was sitting in front of his rented house in a poor section of the city not that far from the U.S. border smoking a cigar. He seemed very happy waving at everyone though most were oblivious to his gestures.
I gave him that painting of him.He didn't say if he liked it or didn't, nor did he say "thank you." He didn't even look at it.He didn't come off as being rude.He was just absorbed his own little world and didn't seem to respond to any outside stimulation.I didn't know where to start a conversation. I didn't want to come off with a lot of rote questions like "Who was the best fighter you fought?" or "What was your toughest fight?".There was no breaking the ice.He was happy from the get go and I could have asked him about anything and he would have felt at ease .There was no seriousness in his manner.No depth of reflection.No philosophical words of wisdom.He said he was waiting for his wife to come home from shopping.She had taken the truck to run her errands.In short time I sensed that the dementia was toying with him. The clincher was when he told me that last year he went to Cuba to visit his mother and father.
After realizing that there wouldn't be anything gathered of significance from our conversation I bounced more or less innocuous queries off the former champ. Like "Can you still get it up anymore?"He got a kick out of that one. He didn't say "yes" or "no." In fact I think he forgot what I had asked him before he could answer.
I wasn't disappointed that he had slipped to the point that it was like talking to a child.That's just the way it was.There was nothing I could have done about it.As he sat there puffing away on his cigar I looked at the old scar tissue around his eyes.I thought of all those big fights he had in LA.Here was a black Cuban who was embraced by Mexico as one of their own. Jose Napoles had fallen in love with the country. He fit like a glove.He was as popular as any athlete in Mexico. In fact the president of the country,Diaz Ordaz,intervened with the state department to expediate making him a Mexican citizen.That was the first time a president had done something like that.
So there was my favorite fighter when I was into the sport smoking a cigar in front of his house waving to everyone as they walked by ignoring him. I wound up giving him 20 dollars when I left telling him to buy some more cigars. He called me "Campeon" and we embraced.
I'll remember that day for the rest of my life. Jose waited for his wife to come home so she could cook him dinner.She probably asked him where he got the painting.I bet he couldn't remember.
Jose puffing away.There's his wife's truck in the backround.
Years later I saw this picture on the internet.There's my painting hanging on his wall.
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Paranoia
In 1916 ,when Joe Louis was 2 years old, his father,MUn Barrow, was committed to a psychiatric hospital. In 1969 Joe Louis was committed to a psychiatric hospital. It's nor clear why Louis' father was institutionalized.Louis was led to believe that his father had died shortly after being committed.However,Louis' father lived till 1938 unaware that his son was the heavyweight champion of the world.
IN 1969 Louis' son ,Joe Barrow, had his father sent to the Colorado Psychiatric Hospital. Louis was unaware that his son had initiated the hospitalization.
"I wish he would have talked it over with me,"said Louis afterwards.
Joe Barrow said it was the hardest decision he ever made in his life, and regretted it.
Joe Louis suffered from extreme parranoia.He thought the United States government was out to destroy him.Louis would smear the windows of his house with vaseline because he thought the FBI was spying on him. In time louis was released. He had so many physical and mental issues he was considered a non threat to himself and the people around him.
This leads me to think that Louis' father also suffered from being paranoid.It's a condition that never goes away completely.Today there are drugs that psychiatrists prescribe to help alleviate the symptoms. Before drugs there were lobotomy treatments .However,there were tremendous risks probing with an instrument into the prefrontal cortex of the brain through a person's eye socket severing the connections to the brain. This was supposed to alleviate mental illness. Joseph Kennedy's oldest daughter,Rosemary,had this procedure done(one of the first to go under)and wound up with permanent brain damage.She was sent to an institution in the mid west and lived out the rest of her life with the mental capacity of a 2 year old.To heighten this tragedy Kennedy's wife was unaware that her husband had scheduled the operation for her daughter.
There probably was a heredity factor somewhere between Mun Barrow and his son.It's scary to think of what would have happened if Joe Louis would have developed the condition during his career as a fighter. His legacy wouldn't have been what it is today.It would be something people would want to forget.
Joe Louis
In 1916 ,when Joe Louis was 2 years old, his father,MUn Barrow, was committed to a psychiatric hospital. In 1969 Joe Louis was committed to a psychiatric hospital. It's nor clear why Louis' father was institutionalized.Louis was led to believe that his father had died shortly after being committed.However,Louis' father lived till 1938 unaware that his son was the heavyweight champion of the world.
IN 1969 Louis' son ,Joe Barrow, had his father sent to the Colorado Psychiatric Hospital. Louis was unaware that his son had initiated the hospitalization.
"I wish he would have talked it over with me,"said Louis afterwards.
Joe Barrow said it was the hardest decision he ever made in his life, and regretted it.
Joe Louis suffered from extreme parranoia.He thought the United States government was out to destroy him.Louis would smear the windows of his house with vaseline because he thought the FBI was spying on him. In time louis was released. He had so many physical and mental issues he was considered a non threat to himself and the people around him.
This leads me to think that Louis' father also suffered from being paranoid.It's a condition that never goes away completely.Today there are drugs that psychiatrists prescribe to help alleviate the symptoms. Before drugs there were lobotomy treatments .However,there were tremendous risks probing with an instrument into the prefrontal cortex of the brain through a person's eye socket severing the connections to the brain. This was supposed to alleviate mental illness. Joseph Kennedy's oldest daughter,Rosemary,had this procedure done(one of the first to go under)and wound up with permanent brain damage.She was sent to an institution in the mid west and lived out the rest of her life with the mental capacity of a 2 year old.To heighten this tragedy Kennedy's wife was unaware that her husband had scheduled the operation for her daughter.
There probably was a heredity factor somewhere between Mun Barrow and his son.It's scary to think of what would have happened if Joe Louis would have developed the condition during his career as a fighter. His legacy wouldn't have been what it is today.It would be something people would want to forget.
Joe Louis
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
One "Great Fighter"Today's Fighters Would Beat Up
I never saw nothing in Stanley Ketchel.For years the boxing scribes considered him the best middleweight who ever lived. Nat Fleischer,the editor of Ring Magazine,had him ranked tops.Ernest Hemingway wrote about him like he was a savage beast.The only thing we can see on film of Ketchel is the last Papke fight and the Johnson bout..Against Papke he looks like a crude 4 round preliminary fighter ,and so does Papke. Nothing but a lot of holding with the referee trying to pull these two guys apart.Ketchel doesn't show anything. He has no jab.Doesn't throw combinations.He lunges with his punches.He's down right slow in his movements.I don't understand what all the fuss was about.
The other clip is his fight with Jack Johnson. Johnson just toyed with this guy until Ketchel caught him with a lucky punch and put Jack on the seat of his pants for a flash knockdown. Then in ten seconds it was over with Ketchel knocked unconscious and missing his front teeth.Ok.So Ketchel was a middleweight and Johnson a heavyweight.It was a bigger mismatch than Mickey Walker when he tried his luck with Max Schmeling.Even Johnson afterwards said he wasn't impressed with Ketchel. Johnson said that Ketchel was the easiest guy he could ever hit.He had no defense.
Just about every boxing nut would have loved to see a tape of Ketchel when he fought Sam Langford in that 6 round exhibition in Philly.The scribes were pretty much split on who got the better of it.
Ketchel lived a hard life.Between his drinking and practically living in every whorehouse west of the divide but always remembering to tip his hat to those ladies of the night;I think that's what made him such the anti hero. A Billy The Kid.A Marlon Brando in The Wild One. But as far as a great fighter-baloney.
When that gal Goldie Smithand her common law husband Walter Dipley tried to rob Ketchel but wound up shooting him dead at that ranch in Missouri,Ketchel's trainer Willus Britt suffered a breakdown.But Ketchel's fame just took off.He was the perfect storm legends are made of.But I don't think if he was around today he'd raise a pimple on the boxing scene.Forget what Ray Robinson ,Marvin Hagler,or Carlos Monzon would have done to him.If Stanley Ketchel was fighting today just about every pug in the gym would use him for target practice.
Stanley Ketchel
I never saw nothing in Stanley Ketchel.For years the boxing scribes considered him the best middleweight who ever lived. Nat Fleischer,the editor of Ring Magazine,had him ranked tops.Ernest Hemingway wrote about him like he was a savage beast.The only thing we can see on film of Ketchel is the last Papke fight and the Johnson bout..Against Papke he looks like a crude 4 round preliminary fighter ,and so does Papke. Nothing but a lot of holding with the referee trying to pull these two guys apart.Ketchel doesn't show anything. He has no jab.Doesn't throw combinations.He lunges with his punches.He's down right slow in his movements.I don't understand what all the fuss was about.
The other clip is his fight with Jack Johnson. Johnson just toyed with this guy until Ketchel caught him with a lucky punch and put Jack on the seat of his pants for a flash knockdown. Then in ten seconds it was over with Ketchel knocked unconscious and missing his front teeth.Ok.So Ketchel was a middleweight and Johnson a heavyweight.It was a bigger mismatch than Mickey Walker when he tried his luck with Max Schmeling.Even Johnson afterwards said he wasn't impressed with Ketchel. Johnson said that Ketchel was the easiest guy he could ever hit.He had no defense.
Just about every boxing nut would have loved to see a tape of Ketchel when he fought Sam Langford in that 6 round exhibition in Philly.The scribes were pretty much split on who got the better of it.
Ketchel lived a hard life.Between his drinking and practically living in every whorehouse west of the divide but always remembering to tip his hat to those ladies of the night;I think that's what made him such the anti hero. A Billy The Kid.A Marlon Brando in The Wild One. But as far as a great fighter-baloney.
When that gal Goldie Smithand her common law husband Walter Dipley tried to rob Ketchel but wound up shooting him dead at that ranch in Missouri,Ketchel's trainer Willus Britt suffered a breakdown.But Ketchel's fame just took off.He was the perfect storm legends are made of.But I don't think if he was around today he'd raise a pimple on the boxing scene.Forget what Ray Robinson ,Marvin Hagler,or Carlos Monzon would have done to him.If Stanley Ketchel was fighting today just about every pug in the gym would use him for target practice.
Stanley Ketchel
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Freeze Out
When Floyd Patterson won the heavyweight championship he froze out the top contendrs in the division,Eddie Machen,Zora Folley,and Sonny Liston until he couldn't live with himself any loner and finally relented to fight the best of the three,Liston.And in two fights in less than four minutes you could undrrstand why Patterson ducked those guys.
When Jack Johnson finally cornered Tommy Burns in Sydney,Australia to become the first black fighter to win the heavyweight crown, the Galveston Giant put the best three contenders on his pay no mind list-Sam McVey,Joe Jeanettte,and Sam Langford..They were black like him andJohnson was drawing the color line.Floyd was afraid he'd just plain lose to Eddie,Zora,and Sonny.
But Jack Johnson was no stranger to his three fellow African/Americans contenders inside the ring.Prior to beating Burns,Johnson had fought McVey three times(winning two by decision and one by KO) , went toe to toe with Jeanette eleven times(winning two decisions and losing a decision ,the rest being called no decisions),and Langford went the full 15 with Jack losing the decision.
But Johnson saw no money to be made fighting his black friends,and besides the public wanted to see a "White Hope" knock that golden grin off Johnson's face. There wasn't a promoter in the U.S. that would Johnson together with another black fighter.In Europe Jim Johnson,a black heavyweight went 20 rounds with him in Paris.They fought a draw.But there were black U.S. solders ready to get into the tranches with the frogs so the French were open to to see two black fighters fight for all the marbles.
Floyd Patterson hurt boxing when he was the champ.The public had sated themselves on Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano satisfied that they got the most for their money. Patterson on the other hand was defending against the likes of Roy Harris,Brian London,and Pete Rademacher.You could say he was following orders from his manager Cus D'Amato but Cus knew what he had and wanted to protect his cash cow.. But he couldn't protect him from Ingemar Johanssen.
You can make the argument that Cassius Clay turned things around.Sonny Liston,that inaudible bear,had no allure with the public.It was good to see him go. Ali rejuvenated the sport when it was just about to wind up on the back pages of the sport section. Boy,could we use another Ali now.
Joe Jeanette
When Floyd Patterson won the heavyweight championship he froze out the top contendrs in the division,Eddie Machen,Zora Folley,and Sonny Liston until he couldn't live with himself any loner and finally relented to fight the best of the three,Liston.And in two fights in less than four minutes you could undrrstand why Patterson ducked those guys.
When Jack Johnson finally cornered Tommy Burns in Sydney,Australia to become the first black fighter to win the heavyweight crown, the Galveston Giant put the best three contenders on his pay no mind list-Sam McVey,Joe Jeanettte,and Sam Langford..They were black like him andJohnson was drawing the color line.Floyd was afraid he'd just plain lose to Eddie,Zora,and Sonny.
But Jack Johnson was no stranger to his three fellow African/Americans contenders inside the ring.Prior to beating Burns,Johnson had fought McVey three times(winning two by decision and one by KO) , went toe to toe with Jeanette eleven times(winning two decisions and losing a decision ,the rest being called no decisions),and Langford went the full 15 with Jack losing the decision.
But Johnson saw no money to be made fighting his black friends,and besides the public wanted to see a "White Hope" knock that golden grin off Johnson's face. There wasn't a promoter in the U.S. that would Johnson together with another black fighter.In Europe Jim Johnson,a black heavyweight went 20 rounds with him in Paris.They fought a draw.But there were black U.S. solders ready to get into the tranches with the frogs so the French were open to to see two black fighters fight for all the marbles.
Floyd Patterson hurt boxing when he was the champ.The public had sated themselves on Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano satisfied that they got the most for their money. Patterson on the other hand was defending against the likes of Roy Harris,Brian London,and Pete Rademacher.You could say he was following orders from his manager Cus D'Amato but Cus knew what he had and wanted to protect his cash cow.. But he couldn't protect him from Ingemar Johanssen.
You can make the argument that Cassius Clay turned things around.Sonny Liston,that inaudible bear,had no allure with the public.It was good to see him go. Ali rejuvenated the sport when it was just about to wind up on the back pages of the sport section. Boy,could we use another Ali now.
Joe Jeanette
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Land Of The Free
I often talk about the old downtown bullring in Tijuana and how it served as a venue for some of the greatest fights with some of the greatest fighters around in its day. But I have to tell ya',every time I went to see a fight in that place(I also took in a bullfight once.Not for me.) I thought I might never come out alive.
You think of a bullring and you think of a solid all round structure.Well, the downtown bullring was a massive metal mesh of bleacher type seating. It was a maze of metal tubing that when filled to capacity seated over 10 thousand people. When the crowd would begin to stomp their feet the whole structure would sway. Sometimes I felt I wanted to run out outside to the street.
But eventually the city's engineers decided to tear down the bullring.This was in the mid 1990's. Another bullring was built near the ocean in the colonia called "Playas De Tijuana." It's a formidable looking stucco job and seems very impressive and sturdy. But it's not used much-a few bullfights during the summer and once in awhile a boxing match. Jaime Munguia,the local kid,fought there not too long ago.
I was a little surprised yet greatly relieved when they decided to do away with that old bullring.Mexico is noted for not always abiding to structural codes,or if they even have any. You know when you walk into any establishment on Revolution Street,which is the main drag, there's no back door that serves as an exit in any of those joints. If there's a fire the only way out is through the front door.
Just about every building in Mexico is made of adobe bricks. Once the bricks are in place they cover it with stucco.But if there's an earthquake those bricks start to quiver and everything comes down.Building something like that is against regulations in California where earthquakes do occur from time to time.Earthquakes are no strangers to Mexico either.
But if you think that Mexico is going to correct the problem, forget it.When I was a teacher down by the border I used to ask my students(who were 90 percent Mexican)what is the biggest difference between Mexico and the U.S. I always knew how they were going to answer but I wanted to hear it anyway again.
"There's more freedom in Mexico,"they'd always say.
Mexico has plenty of rules but who wants to be bogged down following them.That's for chumps.Besides, I don't want to know what's under all that stucco in that new bullring by the ocean
The old downtown bullring in Tijuana
I often talk about the old downtown bullring in Tijuana and how it served as a venue for some of the greatest fights with some of the greatest fighters around in its day. But I have to tell ya',every time I went to see a fight in that place(I also took in a bullfight once.Not for me.) I thought I might never come out alive.
You think of a bullring and you think of a solid all round structure.Well, the downtown bullring was a massive metal mesh of bleacher type seating. It was a maze of metal tubing that when filled to capacity seated over 10 thousand people. When the crowd would begin to stomp their feet the whole structure would sway. Sometimes I felt I wanted to run out outside to the street.
But eventually the city's engineers decided to tear down the bullring.This was in the mid 1990's. Another bullring was built near the ocean in the colonia called "Playas De Tijuana." It's a formidable looking stucco job and seems very impressive and sturdy. But it's not used much-a few bullfights during the summer and once in awhile a boxing match. Jaime Munguia,the local kid,fought there not too long ago.
I was a little surprised yet greatly relieved when they decided to do away with that old bullring.Mexico is noted for not always abiding to structural codes,or if they even have any. You know when you walk into any establishment on Revolution Street,which is the main drag, there's no back door that serves as an exit in any of those joints. If there's a fire the only way out is through the front door.
Just about every building in Mexico is made of adobe bricks. Once the bricks are in place they cover it with stucco.But if there's an earthquake those bricks start to quiver and everything comes down.Building something like that is against regulations in California where earthquakes do occur from time to time.Earthquakes are no strangers to Mexico either.
But if you think that Mexico is going to correct the problem, forget it.When I was a teacher down by the border I used to ask my students(who were 90 percent Mexican)what is the biggest difference between Mexico and the U.S. I always knew how they were going to answer but I wanted to hear it anyway again.
"There's more freedom in Mexico,"they'd always say.
Mexico has plenty of rules but who wants to be bogged down following them.That's for chumps.Besides, I don't want to know what's under all that stucco in that new bullring by the ocean
The old downtown bullring in Tijuana
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Echoes Of Leather
Went by the Tijuana Historical Center again today and looked at that old photograph of Bert Colima knocking out Jack Moore.I missed seeing a caption at the bottom saying that the outdoor arena that they fought in was located between Revolution and Madero Streets between 3rd and 4th Avenues.That would have out it right square in downtown TJ.
the arena was a shallow oval shaped structure with bleacher seating. Down by ringside they put out chairs In front of the museum there was a female security guard in uniform at the collecting donations to enter the building.Before I go on I want to say that that building ,located on 2nd Street between Constitution and Ocampo Streets ,used to be Tijuana's city hall. I got married there 50 years ago.Anyway I asked the security person if there was anyone inside that could maybe give me some added information about some of the old fights in Tijuana,especially if there was anything I could glean about Jack Johnson.
In 1919 Johnson fought a guy by the name of George Roberts stopping him in 3 rounds.Shortly after that Johnson crossed the line into San Diego and gave himself up to the federal authorities. Eventually he went to Leavenworth to do his time.But there was no one inside the museum.No director.No customers.That's TJ for you..It's not much of a historical museum anyway. Lacking in worthwhile memorabilia and artifacts. Mostly copies of old pictures.But i'll go back and try my luck later.
I got to thinking afterwards about who might have built that outdoor arena. I'm just guessing but I'd put my money on "Sunny Jim" Coffroth. The American entrepreneur had his hand in a lot of goings on south of the border.He and Baron Long practically owned Tijuana. Coffroth ws a big fight promoter and specialized in building arenas for his bouts.I bet he had a hand in constructing that downtown venue.
During Prohibition Tijuana was an open city. Gambling flourished at the Agua Caliente Casino and Racetrack. The Foreign Club had shows that rivaled anyplace in the world. Guests would be required to don coat and tie.If they wanted to try their luck at the Rosarito Beach Hotel, tuxedos were standard.There was the Caesar Hotel on Revolution Street where one night the chef ran out of iceberg lettuce to make the salads.So he came up with his own concoction of hard boiled eggs,anchovies,cheese ,croutons,and Romaine lettuce.The Caesar is still open and if you order the Caesar salad the waiter comes out and makes right it in front of you.
I caught The Foreign Club when it was on its last legs.There was no entertainment then.Just the bar. But back in the day some of the most famous stars in Hollywood and the biggest names in the sports world could be seen gambling and watching the acts.Rita Hayworth(who was known as Rita Cansino)danced with her father at The Foreign Club.Rudoplph Valentino also was a hoofer there.
I remember the old racetrack well. I was there on the last Sunday before it was torched the following day. This was in 1970.There were white table clothes on the tables with waiters in immaculate outfits tending to your needs. The food was catered by Fred Harvey's,the outfit that put food on the tables for the Union and Southern Pacific Railroads.Italian tile was imported from Milan adorning every wall.I'd see celebrities like Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz who had a summer home in Del Mar.I caught Bing Crosby and Pat O'Brian one day with a blond on each arm sopping up the Irish whiskey.When the track opened in the 20's some of the biggest stakes races in the world ran there.They brought Phar Lap from new Zealand to run in their big derby and he won.The Caliente track was the first track to have automatic starting gate and the jocks had to wear helmets.There was a hot springs near by(Aguas Calients)and people would relax in the hot bubbling waters.A golf course and skeet shooting area was built alongside including an Olympic size pool.
That must have been something else. Jack Dempsey opened a spot down the road in Ensenada.He spent a lot of time there rubbing shoulders with the beautiful people who drove down from LA.That's where he met his second wife the actress Estelle Taylor.I forgot to mention the Jai Alai Palace on Revolution where they played that three walled game that was similar to handball except instead of using the palm they had a basket attached to the hand and caught the ball inside and then flung it against the wall. Another gambling Mecca for the high rollers. By the way.Jai Alai players could only be from the Basque region of Spain.It was a long standing tradition.
Yeah. I'll be going back to that historical museum.See if I can rustle anything up on that arena and if Jack Johnson ever fought a guy by the name of George Roberts there.
The old Caliente Racetrack before they burned it down.
Went by the Tijuana Historical Center again today and looked at that old photograph of Bert Colima knocking out Jack Moore.I missed seeing a caption at the bottom saying that the outdoor arena that they fought in was located between Revolution and Madero Streets between 3rd and 4th Avenues.That would have out it right square in downtown TJ.
the arena was a shallow oval shaped structure with bleacher seating. Down by ringside they put out chairs In front of the museum there was a female security guard in uniform at the collecting donations to enter the building.Before I go on I want to say that that building ,located on 2nd Street between Constitution and Ocampo Streets ,used to be Tijuana's city hall. I got married there 50 years ago.Anyway I asked the security person if there was anyone inside that could maybe give me some added information about some of the old fights in Tijuana,especially if there was anything I could glean about Jack Johnson.
In 1919 Johnson fought a guy by the name of George Roberts stopping him in 3 rounds.Shortly after that Johnson crossed the line into San Diego and gave himself up to the federal authorities. Eventually he went to Leavenworth to do his time.But there was no one inside the museum.No director.No customers.That's TJ for you..It's not much of a historical museum anyway. Lacking in worthwhile memorabilia and artifacts. Mostly copies of old pictures.But i'll go back and try my luck later.
I got to thinking afterwards about who might have built that outdoor arena. I'm just guessing but I'd put my money on "Sunny Jim" Coffroth. The American entrepreneur had his hand in a lot of goings on south of the border.He and Baron Long practically owned Tijuana. Coffroth ws a big fight promoter and specialized in building arenas for his bouts.I bet he had a hand in constructing that downtown venue.
During Prohibition Tijuana was an open city. Gambling flourished at the Agua Caliente Casino and Racetrack. The Foreign Club had shows that rivaled anyplace in the world. Guests would be required to don coat and tie.If they wanted to try their luck at the Rosarito Beach Hotel, tuxedos were standard.There was the Caesar Hotel on Revolution Street where one night the chef ran out of iceberg lettuce to make the salads.So he came up with his own concoction of hard boiled eggs,anchovies,cheese ,croutons,and Romaine lettuce.The Caesar is still open and if you order the Caesar salad the waiter comes out and makes right it in front of you.
I caught The Foreign Club when it was on its last legs.There was no entertainment then.Just the bar. But back in the day some of the most famous stars in Hollywood and the biggest names in the sports world could be seen gambling and watching the acts.Rita Hayworth(who was known as Rita Cansino)danced with her father at The Foreign Club.Rudoplph Valentino also was a hoofer there.
I remember the old racetrack well. I was there on the last Sunday before it was torched the following day. This was in 1970.There were white table clothes on the tables with waiters in immaculate outfits tending to your needs. The food was catered by Fred Harvey's,the outfit that put food on the tables for the Union and Southern Pacific Railroads.Italian tile was imported from Milan adorning every wall.I'd see celebrities like Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz who had a summer home in Del Mar.I caught Bing Crosby and Pat O'Brian one day with a blond on each arm sopping up the Irish whiskey.When the track opened in the 20's some of the biggest stakes races in the world ran there.They brought Phar Lap from new Zealand to run in their big derby and he won.The Caliente track was the first track to have automatic starting gate and the jocks had to wear helmets.There was a hot springs near by(Aguas Calients)and people would relax in the hot bubbling waters.A golf course and skeet shooting area was built alongside including an Olympic size pool.
That must have been something else. Jack Dempsey opened a spot down the road in Ensenada.He spent a lot of time there rubbing shoulders with the beautiful people who drove down from LA.That's where he met his second wife the actress Estelle Taylor.I forgot to mention the Jai Alai Palace on Revolution where they played that three walled game that was similar to handball except instead of using the palm they had a basket attached to the hand and caught the ball inside and then flung it against the wall. Another gambling Mecca for the high rollers. By the way.Jai Alai players could only be from the Basque region of Spain.It was a long standing tradition.
Yeah. I'll be going back to that historical museum.See if I can rustle anything up on that arena and if Jack Johnson ever fought a guy by the name of George Roberts there.
The old Caliente Racetrack before they burned it down.
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Sweating It Out
I never get over watching old clips of fights that were practically in the middle of the desert and on top of it the bouts were staged in the summer.It's bad enough on the fighters(but hell,they're getting paid for it) yet I'm always amazed by the fans in the seats.They're all wearing tweed suits.I can understand the hat on their heads to keep the sun off, but the tweed suits?
You think somebody would say"I ain't wearing no damn tweed suit in the desert on the 4th of July." Could you imagine someone wearing a T shirt and shorts and a pair of flip flops insteaad?Of course instead of the derby they have on a baseball cap.But to have been contrary not dressing appropriately would have caused a minor stir.Really?
I'll just name two fights that always make me wonder:Joe Gans taking on Battling Nelson in Colma ,California and Jack Johnson fighting Jim Jeffries in Reno,Nevada,both on the 4th of JUly. There must have been some fans that got heat stroke.
Another thing that gets me is how they allowed certain fights to occur when one of the fighters had a medical condition prior. Getting back to Gans.He had advanced TB in his last fight with Nelson.He was vomiting blood between the ring ropes during their fight.What were people thinking? How about Sam Langfdord after his fight with the 6 foot 7 Fred Fulton? Fulton blinded one of Langford's eyes permanently. Langford went on to fight another eight years and have over a hundred fights before retiring. I guess the ring docs doing the pree fight examinations were also blind.Then there was Billy Miske's fight with Jack Dempsey for essentially for a payday.MIske was to live only three months after that fight .He died of kidney failure.But everyone knew that Miske was sick when he fought Dempsey.
I guess you could say the fans and the fighters were tougher back then.But being tough doesn't always mean you're doing the right thing.
Joe Gans
I never get over watching old clips of fights that were practically in the middle of the desert and on top of it the bouts were staged in the summer.It's bad enough on the fighters(but hell,they're getting paid for it) yet I'm always amazed by the fans in the seats.They're all wearing tweed suits.I can understand the hat on their heads to keep the sun off, but the tweed suits?
You think somebody would say"I ain't wearing no damn tweed suit in the desert on the 4th of July." Could you imagine someone wearing a T shirt and shorts and a pair of flip flops insteaad?Of course instead of the derby they have on a baseball cap.But to have been contrary not dressing appropriately would have caused a minor stir.Really?
I'll just name two fights that always make me wonder:Joe Gans taking on Battling Nelson in Colma ,California and Jack Johnson fighting Jim Jeffries in Reno,Nevada,both on the 4th of JUly. There must have been some fans that got heat stroke.
Another thing that gets me is how they allowed certain fights to occur when one of the fighters had a medical condition prior. Getting back to Gans.He had advanced TB in his last fight with Nelson.He was vomiting blood between the ring ropes during their fight.What were people thinking? How about Sam Langfdord after his fight with the 6 foot 7 Fred Fulton? Fulton blinded one of Langford's eyes permanently. Langford went on to fight another eight years and have over a hundred fights before retiring. I guess the ring docs doing the pree fight examinations were also blind.Then there was Billy Miske's fight with Jack Dempsey for essentially for a payday.MIske was to live only three months after that fight .He died of kidney failure.But everyone knew that Miske was sick when he fought Dempsey.
I guess you could say the fans and the fighters were tougher back then.But being tough doesn't always mean you're doing the right thing.
Joe Gans
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Waiting For Mancini
Down the hill from where I live there was a little store on the corner that sold sports cards.I'd say 90 percent were baseball cards and the rest football.There were no basketball cards.Over time they didn't make that many basketball cards.There wasn't that much of a market. Hockey-practically nil. However if you had a rookie card of Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky ,and most importantly ,they got graded out 8 and higher by one of those reputable outfits like PSA or Becket you could make some serious money on Ebay.
The time was around the late 90's and the memorabilia market for trading cards was starting to fade.It was all those companies that made the cards that caused the bottom to drop out.There too many card companies and they made too many cards. Back in the 50's there were only two companies that made cards-Topps and Bowman.Bowman gave up in the mid 50's and let Topps have the market. But back then a pack of cards cost a quarter and you got a stick of bubblegum and didn't think that much about it.Just about every kid had a shoebox full of cards and manhandled them pretty rough. After awhile the mothers threw them away without asking and no one cared. . Today, some of those old cards,if they're in good condition and get graded out high you could put a down payment on a house.But I want to clarify myself.I'm talking mostly about baseball cards.
They used to make boxing cards. They usually came in a pack of tobacco. Around the turn of the century there were colored painted cards of guys like Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries.They're really not worth that much today. The cards were only a few inches square.I had a couple of what they called Cabinet Cards. One of John L.Sullivan ,and the other of Jim Corbett.They were big in size.I'd say something like 6 by 8 inches.The date on them was 1906.I bought them at a flea market.The Corbett card was in pretty good shape. Sully though was chewed up around the edges.The black and white photos had faded a bit.I sold them later to a card dealer and got a couple of hundred bucks out of it.I paid 10 bucks apiece for them.
The guy who owned the store always seemed on edge. He knew things were going south for collecting sports cards.He told me he had the place for sale but there weren't any takers.One day I walked in there and asked him what was going on.
"Ray Mancini is going to be here this Saturday to sign autographs and 2:30."
It kind of surprised me.
"I don't see any advertising on the walls,"I said
"Well I'm putting the word out."
Mancini had been retired for a few years.After losing four straight ,twice to Livingstone Bramble and once to Hector camacho and Greg Haugen, he got out when he should.
I came back to the guy's shop that Saturday to catch a glimpse of "Boom Boom."But he never showed. There weren't any people inside the store.I hung around about an hour.
"Any word on Mancini?"I asked the owner.
"I called his hotel this morning and they said he never arrived."
"They give a reason?"
"No. Just that he never checked in."
"Well,I guess I'll be going,"I said.
As I reached the door the owner caught up with me and handed me his business card.
"If you know anyone who might be interested in buying this place have them give me a call.I'm always willing to bargain."
Ray Mancini
Down the hill from where I live there was a little store on the corner that sold sports cards.I'd say 90 percent were baseball cards and the rest football.There were no basketball cards.Over time they didn't make that many basketball cards.There wasn't that much of a market. Hockey-practically nil. However if you had a rookie card of Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky ,and most importantly ,they got graded out 8 and higher by one of those reputable outfits like PSA or Becket you could make some serious money on Ebay.
The time was around the late 90's and the memorabilia market for trading cards was starting to fade.It was all those companies that made the cards that caused the bottom to drop out.There too many card companies and they made too many cards. Back in the 50's there were only two companies that made cards-Topps and Bowman.Bowman gave up in the mid 50's and let Topps have the market. But back then a pack of cards cost a quarter and you got a stick of bubblegum and didn't think that much about it.Just about every kid had a shoebox full of cards and manhandled them pretty rough. After awhile the mothers threw them away without asking and no one cared. . Today, some of those old cards,if they're in good condition and get graded out high you could put a down payment on a house.But I want to clarify myself.I'm talking mostly about baseball cards.
They used to make boxing cards. They usually came in a pack of tobacco. Around the turn of the century there were colored painted cards of guys like Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries.They're really not worth that much today. The cards were only a few inches square.I had a couple of what they called Cabinet Cards. One of John L.Sullivan ,and the other of Jim Corbett.They were big in size.I'd say something like 6 by 8 inches.The date on them was 1906.I bought them at a flea market.The Corbett card was in pretty good shape. Sully though was chewed up around the edges.The black and white photos had faded a bit.I sold them later to a card dealer and got a couple of hundred bucks out of it.I paid 10 bucks apiece for them.
The guy who owned the store always seemed on edge. He knew things were going south for collecting sports cards.He told me he had the place for sale but there weren't any takers.One day I walked in there and asked him what was going on.
"Ray Mancini is going to be here this Saturday to sign autographs and 2:30."
It kind of surprised me.
"I don't see any advertising on the walls,"I said
"Well I'm putting the word out."
Mancini had been retired for a few years.After losing four straight ,twice to Livingstone Bramble and once to Hector camacho and Greg Haugen, he got out when he should.
I came back to the guy's shop that Saturday to catch a glimpse of "Boom Boom."But he never showed. There weren't any people inside the store.I hung around about an hour.
"Any word on Mancini?"I asked the owner.
"I called his hotel this morning and they said he never arrived."
"They give a reason?"
"No. Just that he never checked in."
"Well,I guess I'll be going,"I said.
As I reached the door the owner caught up with me and handed me his business card.
"If you know anyone who might be interested in buying this place have them give me a call.I'm always willing to bargain."
Ray Mancini
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Mando Ramos,Ray Mancini,Bobby Chacon,Danny Lopez
Steven's Steakhouse 2007.City Of Industry LA.Father/Son banquet.
-
dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Let's Get Ready To Tumble
Michael Beffer,you know the ring announcer,put a patent on his trademark expression "Let's Get Ready To Rumble."So every time he gets the microphone in his hand,whether he's doing a fight or a Ninendo contest,those five little words put between 25 and 100 thousand dollars(before taxes)into his bank account.And there have been certain contests where his asking price(and he got it)was a cool million. Hell,he makes more money than the fighters in the ring.And he's got a copywrite on the thing.
This guy on the forum who makes a big stink about Sugar Ray Leonard making 40 grand on his very first fight. and his boyhood hero ,Roberto Duran, only making 25 bucks on his first fight was an injustice.This guy has his head on backwards.. What was Leonard to do regarding his take on his first fight? Say he should only get 25 dollars?You don't think Duran would have jumped all over 40 g's?So he started out in Panama. Leonard was an Olympic champ for the United States.The U.S. promoters got their hands on him.Well,GOOD FOR HIM.A fighter deserves to make as much money as he can but most of them get ripped off by their managers and the promoters and wind up broke and punchy.
Now let's get back to Buffer. He says "Let's Get Ready To Rumble." and then goes to the bank with a big fat check while the fighters(especially the prelim boys)are getting hit in the head while a Don King or a Bob Arum are chiseling them left and right.Now there's an injustice .So what is anyone going to do about it?It's all above board- I don't know who's worse. The promoters or Michael Buffer.
BTW.Michael Buffer has grossed more than 400 million dollars with his five little words.That's more than Mayweather earned in the ring and he made more money fighting than any other fighter in history.And BUffer's still going strong.I hope he loses his voice.
Michael Beffer,you know the ring announcer,put a patent on his trademark expression "Let's Get Ready To Rumble."So every time he gets the microphone in his hand,whether he's doing a fight or a Ninendo contest,those five little words put between 25 and 100 thousand dollars(before taxes)into his bank account.And there have been certain contests where his asking price(and he got it)was a cool million. Hell,he makes more money than the fighters in the ring.And he's got a copywrite on the thing.
This guy on the forum who makes a big stink about Sugar Ray Leonard making 40 grand on his very first fight. and his boyhood hero ,Roberto Duran, only making 25 bucks on his first fight was an injustice.This guy has his head on backwards.. What was Leonard to do regarding his take on his first fight? Say he should only get 25 dollars?You don't think Duran would have jumped all over 40 g's?So he started out in Panama. Leonard was an Olympic champ for the United States.The U.S. promoters got their hands on him.Well,GOOD FOR HIM.A fighter deserves to make as much money as he can but most of them get ripped off by their managers and the promoters and wind up broke and punchy.
Now let's get back to Buffer. He says "Let's Get Ready To Rumble." and then goes to the bank with a big fat check while the fighters(especially the prelim boys)are getting hit in the head while a Don King or a Bob Arum are chiseling them left and right.Now there's an injustice .So what is anyone going to do about it?It's all above board- I don't know who's worse. The promoters or Michael Buffer.
BTW.Michael Buffer has grossed more than 400 million dollars with his five little words.That's more than Mayweather earned in the ring and he made more money fighting than any other fighter in history.And BUffer's still going strong.I hope he loses his voice.