What If ? Jack Johnson vrs Gentleman Jim Corbett ( July 1910)

[Caractacus]

I seem to remember reading somewhere
that when Jack Johnson became HW champion in 1908.
the American public actually wanted Gentleman Jim to return to the ring
and become "The Great White Hope"
Even tho GJC was a bit long in the tooth by then of coursr,(born 1866)
how do you think it would have went ?
would he have done a better showing then Jeffries ?

[HomicideHenry]

Corbett would have been eaten alive.

Mind you the man well into his late 50s demonstrated incredible speed in a reel alongside Gene Tunney, but Corbett wouldn't have been able to do anything with Johnson.

Matter of fact Corbett acted as a sparring partner for Jeffries in preparation for Johnson, which ought to really emphasize things. If Jeffries couldn't do it after six years inactivity, etc there's no way the man Jeffries beat twice was going to do anything to Johnson.

Lastly, it must be noted in between rounds Corbett was harass Johnson saying that he had a yellow streak and not fighting like a man. He was trying anything and everything to get under Johnson's skin to try to somehow better Jeffries chances.

To which Johnson would smile and say, "Mr Corbett I'm doing what you used to do," meaning he was using his brain and his speed and his skills and reflexes to win matches. And that only made Corbett all the more infuriated.

[Ambling Alp II]

A prime Corbett may have been competitive with Johnson. However, there is no way by 1910 he would have been competitive at all.

[Caractacus]

But could Corbett have 'outboxed" Johnson even at nearly age 44 ?
BTW did you see how that Ken Burns made Corbett out to be ?
a spittle flying y racist crazy man at ring-side.
I read Corbetts 1925 autobiography a couple years ago
and he sounded the fartest thing from it in it

.

[gilgamesh]

Prime for Prime it's a competitive fight.

In 1910 Johnson tortures Corbett like a child plucking the wings off a fly.

[Ambling Alp II]

Kind of what I think as well.

No Corbett could not have out-boxed Johnson at that age. Not to mention it had been almost 7 years since he had a fight. He would have not have been as fast. His timing would not have been as good. His stamina would not have been as good either.
Doubtful that he would have won even in his prime.

He did say some racist things towards Johnson. Guess it is possible that could have changed his views somewhat by 1925 when his book came out.

[Caractacus]

I think Corbett would have moved around the ring pretty good for an 'old man".

[Caractacus]

[Caractacus]

In March 1909, Jim Corbett challenged Jack Johnson,
under the grounds that if Jim J. Jeffries could not get himself into good enough shape
for one reason or another
and had to drop out for the planned fight.
That he would take Jefffries place.

[Caractacus]

So the real question is,
how far into the fight would a well conditioned 43 almost 44 year old Jim Corbett
have gone into the fight ?
don't you think Johnson would have had trouble laying a glove on him ?
would he have looked better then Jeffries did in it anyway ?
You can bet that Corbett would have become an "expert"
on Jack Johnson going into it.

[Caractacus]

Gene Tunney first met Jim Corbett in Cleveland
just after Tunney's fight with Johnny Risko November.13.1925.
just afterwards this was filmed on a roof top somewhere in Manhatten NYC.
So that's a 60 year old man sparring with Gene Tunney in there people !

[Ambling Alp II]

I saw this on Youtube a while back as well. for his age, Corbett was very impressive. He must have been great in his prime.
But again, at 43, and off several years, he would not have had a chance against Jack Johnson. Sparring and fighting a in a real fight is not the same thing. Tunney was not trying to win a fight here. Johnson would have been.

[Caractacus]

Corbett show Tunney "Some of the Famous punches of History"
I wonder if Corbett was actually demonstrating Bob Fitzsimmons boxing style there at approx : 50 ?
and Jack Johnson's style at 1:20 ?
( hitting out of the break)

[HomicideHenry]

I saw this on Youtube a while back as well. for his age, Corbett was very impressive. He must have been great in his prime.
But again, at 43, and off several years, he would not have had a chance against Jack Johnson. Sparring and fighting a in a real fight is not the same thing. Tunney was not trying to win a fight here. Johnson would have been.

Being that he was only 178 lbs basically, he must have been the fastest heavyweight champion in history. I know a long time ago there was a video roundtable of a couple of old timers asked their thoughts about Ali when he was still Cassius Clay and every single one of the old timers said that Corbett was faster.

Now maybe you can take such a statement as that with a grain of salt because of probable racist attitudes but I think it does make sense physically considering how small Corbett actually was--- if it's said that Ali moved like a middleweight, Corbett probably moved like a welterweight.

[margaret thatcher]

ya corbett just looks utterly fantastic prancing around there

[pound per pound]

But could Corbett have 'outboxed" Johnson even at nearly age 44 ?
BTW did you see how that Ken Burns made Corbett out to be ?
a spittle flying y racist crazy man at ring-side.
I read Corbetts 1925 autobiography a couple years ago
and he sounded the fartest thing from it in it

.

Corbett retained much of his speed. He moves around pretty well with Tunney on film. that was in the late 1920's. And wow, he really looks good sparring with Kid McCoy and that was a few years after 1910. The McCoy film was for world war one bonds. I think he would be pretty competitive in those short 6 rounds fights made for Johnson. Watch this rare films if they have been uploaded on you tube.

[pound per pound]

And here is Corbett sparring with Kid McCoy. He has impressive agility and speed even in middle age.

[Ambling Alp II]

I saw this on Youtube a while back as well. for his age, Corbett was very impressive. He must have been great in his prime.
But again, at 43, and off several years, he would not have had a chance against Jack Johnson. Sparring and fighting a in a real fight is not the same thing. Tunney was not trying to win a fight here. Johnson would have been.

Being that he was only 178 lbs basically, he must have been the fastest heavyweight champion in history. I know a long time ago there was a video roundtable of a couple of old timers asked their thoughts about Ali when he was still Cassius Clay and every single one of the old timers said that Corbett was faster.

Now maybe you can take such a statement as that with a grain of salt because of probable racist attitudes but I think it does make sense physically considering how small Corbett actually was--- if it's said that Ali moved like a middleweight, Corbett probably moved like a welterweight.

Being that he was only 178 lbs basically, he must have been the fastest heavyweight champion in history.
Being smaller doesn't automatically make him the faster. Fitzsimmons and Burns were smaller than Corbett, doesn't make them faster than Corbett.

There is no way in the world that he was as fast as Ali. Ridiculous to even think that. There is some footage of Corbett against Fitzsimmons and and he clearly was not as fast as Ali in both hand speed and foot movement.

[HomicideHenry]

Ridiculous? How?

Surely a man 178 lbs is going to be faster than a man 215-220 pounds. Considering Corbett was a mover and stylist in the ring, he was going to employ quickness and speed. The fact that so many people were incapable of catching him, until he got much older, goes to show that he may very well have been the fastest man on two wheels in his era.

Besides there are two kinds of speed in boxing. Hand speed and foot speed. One can make an argument that Floyd Patterson had faster hands than Muhammad Ali. Ali's speed may have been overall the fastest in combination (feet/hands) but it was his foot speed that made him difficult to be caught. Similar to Gene Tunney in that regard.

Furthermore it's hard to determine just how fast these guys were in live time considering we are looking at hand cranked cameras. Sure you can speed it up but little nuances are lost in translation. Also one forgets that Fitzsimmons managed to get Corbett to fight his kind of fight, in close, so of course we're not going to see Corbett utilizing all of his abilities.

I don't think it's outside the scope of the imagination to imagine that a man who very well could have been a super middleweight today could have been faster than Ali or just as fast. Once again you're nostalgia for the 1960s and 1970s I think has blinded you to consider the possibility that somebody basically 40 pounds lighter than Muhammad Ali could be faster than him.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ridiculous how? In that if you simply watch the two, you can tell that Ali was faster.
It doesn't matter if Corbett weighed 178 or 278.
Look at how fast they were and forget about their weights.

Sure you could make the argument that Patterson had faster hand speed. And you would wrong. Simply watching their film you can tell that. Watch their head to head fight in 1965. Ali was much faster. Not even close.

Yes the cameras were not nearly as good in Corbett's time. But you can use some common sense and watch the, and get a general idea. Corbett had plenty of chances to show his speed against Fitzsimmons, and he did. He was winning the fight when he got ko'd. If he really was faster than Ali, we would have seen it.

There is no way Corbett would have been a super middleweight today. The 178 that you keep going on about was his lowest weight. Even if he was a super middleweight or light heavyweight, it doesn't change anything.

This has more to do with with your hated of Ali than anything.

[HomicideHenry]

A man can have faster hands and still lose a fight. A man can have faster legs and still lose a fight. I still maintain Patterson had faster hands than Ali, especially in combinations. We simply agree to disagree.

It's kind of like the argument of Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones and James Toney. Almost universally everybody says James Toney was the best skilled of the three, yet he lost to Roy and a lot of people dismiss his chances against Hopkins on the basis of Hopkins longevity.

To my mind it's mostly a matter of physics. If a man is 40 or 50 pounds lighter than the other man the lighter weight man is going to be faster more times than not. And just because Corbett could have been faster does not mean he would have beaten Ali--- after all Billy Conn lost to the much slower Joe Louis, for example.

I think Ali was a great boxer I just don't like him personally as a human being because he was not this friendly guy as many people want to portray him as being. Throughout his entire career he always talked about segregating blacks from whites, etc. So to my mind him being heralded as some sort of civil rights hero is hogwash. He was simply a coward who did not want to go to Vietnam and he used his so-called religion of peace, which is anything but peaceful, as an excuse not to go.

[Ambling Alp II]

It is a matter of opinion if Toney was more skilled than Hopkins and Jones. btw- Hopkins never fought Toney.
It's not a matter of opinion if Ali had faster hand speed than Patterson. It is simply a fact.

A matter of physics? Yes on average, the smaller man is faster than a larger man. However, that is just a general rule. It doesn't apply at all times.
On average, taller player will get more rebounds than a shorter player. It doesn't happen all the time though.

When you specifically look at Ali and Corbett (or Patterson fore that mater), you can tell that Ali was faster. That is all that you need to do.

Ali did not talk about segregating blacks and whites throughout his career. That is simply not true.

[Wee Tommy]

ya corbett just looks utterly fantastic prancing around there

[Wee Tommy]

Can’t believe I missed Hopkins beating James Toney.

[Caractacus]

-1894-
Corbett (age 28)was in "The Matrix".