Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?

[DrDuke]

Gene Fullmer fought and beat the very best Welterweight and middleweight opposition in his career, and beat the majority of them.

Among his greatest wins:
WKO10 Benny "Kid" Paret
W15 Florentino Fernandez
W15 Ellsworth "Spider" Webb
W15 Sugar Ray Robinson (twice)
W10 Gil Turner (twice)
W10 Paul Pender
W10 Del Flanagan
W10 Rocky Castellani
W10 Wilf Greaves
W10 Ralph "Tiger Jones
WTKO14 Carmen Basilio

That's a heck of a resume.

That's how some boxers, including Fullmer, get overrated. People just look on the paper and make conclusions. Well, with our Gene it's understandable, it's much better to watch him on paper than on tape.

[HomicideHenry]

I think people get too caught up in the finesse or beauty of boxing when it is done by really great stylists, and a guy like Fullmer simply never was one of those kind of guys. Nothing that he did in the ring was beautiful or had great nuances. He was just a gritty blood and guts warrior type. He got the job done though against a lot of guys you wouldn't think he could beat.

I don't think anyone is arguing that he could have ever beaten Ray Robinson in his prime, or that he was a top 10 anything at middleweight or welterweight. But he certainly was a top 15 or 20 somebody at those weights.

When you have a guy who is tough as nails with unbelievable conditioning who never stops coming forward that is a very difficult opponent to get the better of. Fullmer, Basilio, Graziano, Marciano, LaMotta, Greb, Ketchel, etc--- definitely were not good boxers by any stretch of the imagination but they were great fighters.

[Caractacus]

By 'white' heritage people usually mean European heritage. The Latin American heritage can't be seen there in contrast to the Italian one. However, the modern Southern Europeans are quite mixed with the Middle Eastern people, so they aren't very 'white'.

I tend to disagree with the Latin American heritage not being seen as white because there are a lot of dynamics in Mexico and other Spanish speaking countries where the light colored and the dark colored Hispanics are seen and treated differently.

Most of the presidents of Mexico have been from old Spanish stock where they are light-skinned like Vicente Fox, etc--- and the light skinned Hispanics are generally seen as being European because quite frankly they did come from European ancestry.

Where it gets murky is the dark-skinned Hispanics who are really from Native American stock but just happen to speak Spanish. Of course not all Native Americans who speak Spanish are dark complected like Danny "Little Red" Lopez who wore headdresses and he was ginger-haired, but for the most part most dark complected Hispanics come from Native American stock.

Caucasian is really a broad spectrum that includes Jews and Arabs and Indians and some groups of Asians. It's not just a European thing. But yes when people usually say white they generally mean people from Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, England, Scotland, France, Germany, and most of Scandinavia.

Sure, since the Latin America is highly mixed historically, there can be people who more or less managed to preserve their European heritage, but generally it's not hard to differ the Hispanic people from the 'white' ones.

'Caucasian' shouldn't be equaled to 'European'. It's an umbrella term for several types of populations, who, by the theory, stretched from the one area to the others, where they established their own features.

By the "Theory" ?
what about the "Haplogroups"
a person can lie about their ethnicity or race but you can't change your haplogroup.
R12 is the most prodominate Haplogroup in Europe, but their were some earlier different
haplogroups in Europe before R12 spread into it from Asia Minor a few thousand years ago.

[Caractacus]

what about Middleweight Champion Joey Giardello ?
was he chopped liver or something ?

[Ambling Alp II]

Nope. He was a great fighter also.

[elmersalsa]

Nope. He was a great fighter also.

Not as great as Gene Fullmer.

[punchoutsb]

Nope. He was a great fighter also.

Not as great as Gene Fullmer.

So is the rule here that you have to be greater than the preceding great? In that case, wouldn't Joe Louis the last great black American all time great?

[Crease]

Is he the Last White American pound per pound all-time great boxer?

It's a good question. For me it has to be a solid NO.

I haven't read all of the thread, I only skimmed... But Joey G was mentioned, I think that is a fair shout. Off the top of my head - the first name that came to mind was Tommy Morrison. Definitely debatable if he should be rated as an ATG but he was Heavyweight Champ in the 90s when the division was stacked with the big four (Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe) so I tend to be kind when it comes to these things, especially with HWs.

[Ambling Alp II]

Tommy Morrison was clearly not a great fighter.

Yes he had a "world title", but that was only the WBO title. That was a minor title at the time.
He fought at a time when the heavyweight division was strong with Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe.
However he only fought one of them (Lewis) and was beaten badly. Also lost badly to Mercer. And there is of course the embarrassing loss to Michael Bentt.

He doesn't have a decent case for being in the HOF.

[elmersalsa]

Is he the Last White American pound per pound all-time great boxer?

It's a good question. For me it has to be a solid NO.

I haven't read all of the thread, I only skimmed... But Joey G was mentioned, I think that is a fair shout. Off the top of my head - the first name that came to mind was Tommy Morrison. Definitely debatable if he should be rated as an ATG but he was Heavyweight Champ in the 90s when the division was stacked with the big four (Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe) so I tend to be kind when it comes to these things, especially with HWs.

Tommy Morrison? Really, Crease? Or you want to be funny?

[elmersalsa]

Nope. He was a great fighter also.

Not as great as Gene Fullmer.

So is the rule here that you have to be greater than the preceding great? In that case, wouldn't Joe Louis the last great black American all time great?

Nope. There are James Toney, Roy Jones, Jr, Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather, Jr and Mike Tyson to name a few black great fighters.

[punchoutsb]

Not as great as Gene Fullmer.

So is the rule here that you have to be greater than the preceding great? In that case, wouldn't Joe Louis the last great black American all time great?

Nope. There are James Toney, Roy Jones, Jr, Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather, Jr and Mike Tyson to name a few black great fighters.

But none of them are as great as Joe Louis…

[Caractacus]

You guys here should read at least 2 books.

Somebody Up There Likes Me by Rocky Graziano (1955)
and
Raging Bull by Jake LaMotta (1970)

because these two both came up around the same time in New York City , "The Hard Way ".

[Jaywheel]

Not as great as Gene Fullmer.

So is the rule here that you have to be greater than the preceding great? In that case, wouldn't Joe Louis the last great black American all time great?

Nope. There are James Toney, Roy Jones, Jr, Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather, Jr and Mike Tyson to name a few black great fighters.

You forgot the most complete of them all, Meldrick Taylor!!

[Caractacus]

what circumstances made Gene Fullmer want to become a fighter anyway ?
Did he have it rough growing up in Utah ?

[elmersalsa]

what circumstances made Gene Fullmer want to become a fighter anyway ?
Did he have it rough growing up in Utah ?

Fullmer just loved the sport. He and his family were Mormons of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints in Utah.

[Caractacus]

gotta be more then that.
Fullmer's early years seem a bit sketchy" to me
He was born in 1931, so he grew up during The Great Depression at the very least.

[dagosd2000]

what circumstances made Gene Fullmer want to become a fighter anyway ?
Did he have it rough growing up in Utah ?

Fullmer just loved the sport. He and his family were Mormons of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints in Utah.

Had to jump in on this.West Jordan Utah ,where the Fullmer brothers were born and raised, is the ghetto of the state of Utah,a dry farm Morman town.Marv Jensen ,who managed the boys, was like a father to them. When Gene couldn't handle Tiger, Jensen wouldn't let Fullmer continue the fight unlike Angelo Dundee who would have seen Ali die in the ring against Holmes if the Black Muslims hadn't have stopped it.Jensen had an adage.He told Gene when you lose two in a row I'm walking away. A devout Morman Fulmer is a misunderstood fighter because of the way he fought.Yes,he was crude but so was Marciano. He gave Ray Robinson fits and a lot of people resented the way Fullmer took it to him.But that was Fullmer's style.He fought that way all the time.He was the underdog when ne and Basilio met for the vacant middleweight championship.He was also the villain.But it was evident early that Fullmer was too strong for the blown up middleweight,Basilio. The rematch was a carbon copy.When Fullmer met Tiger he had run out of gas. The years and all those rough fights had taken a toll.He died a weekn after his brother Don passed away.

[Caractacus]

Joey Archer ( A White-American) Boxer of that same era was pretty good too.

I'm pretty sure that Joey Archer is in one of The Boxing Hall of Fames".
How many are there ?

[Ambling Alp II]

Ring Magazine used to have there own a long time ago, but doesn't any longer.
The World Boxing Hall of Fame has usually been considered a joke. Tons of good but nowhere near great fighters are in it. (Including Joey Archer.)

When people say the Hall Fame, they usually mean the real Hall of Fame, which is the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

[elmersalsa]

what circumstances made Gene Fullmer want to become a fighter anyway ?
Did he have it rough growing up in Utah ?

Fullmer just loved the sport. He and his family were Mormons of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints in Utah.

Had to jump in on this.West Jordan Utah ,where the Fullmer brothers were born and raised, is the ghetto of the state of Utah,a dry farm Morman town.Marv Jensen ,who managed the boys, was like a father to them. When Gene couldn't handle Tiger, Jensen wouldn't let Fullmer continue the fight unlike Angelo Dundee who would have seen Ali die in the ring against Holmes if the Black Muslims hadn't have stopped it.Jensen had an adage.He told Gene when you lose two in a row I'm walking away. A devout Morman Fulmer is a misunderstood fighter because of the way he fought.Yes,he was crude but so was Marciano. He gave Ray Robinson fits and a lot of people resented the way Fullmer took it to him.But that was Fullmer's style.He fought that way all the time.He was the underdog when ne and Basilio met for the vacant middleweight championship.He was also the villain.But it was evident early that Fullmer was too strong for the blown up middleweight,Basilio. The rematch was a carbon copy.When Fullmer met Tiger he had run out of gas. The years and all those rough fights had taken a toll.He died a weekn after his brother Don passed away.

[Ambling Alp II]

Good post except for the nonsense about Angelo Dundee.

[dagosd2000]

Good post except for the nonsense about Angelo Dundee.

It was Herbert Muhammad sitting at ringside who told Angelo Dundee to stop Ali from taking anymore punishment from Larry Holmes. Angelo Dundee should have stepped in earlier but he was afraid that it would upset Herbert Muhammad and his entourage. It was Herbert Muhammad who called a stop to it. Dundee Dundee should have stepped away from Ali before that fight.Ferdie Pacheco did.He knew Ali was not physically able to defend himself against a fighter the caliber of Larry Hilmes regardless of what the Mayo Clinic said about Ali's condition.You're the one full of nonsense.

[Caractacus]

I seem to remember reading a recent biography of Muhammad Ali,
that said it was Herbert Muhammad that wanted Ali to fight Holmes.

[JxhDel.]

I would like to make a case for Kelly Pavlik, but I am not so sure about it.