Is Joshua the best Heavyweight ever

[Thomastearns]

If he defeats Wilder, Fury and Usyk - he might be among the top 5.

That was quite a post from way back in 2018.

Who would have thought back then that the Usyk fight would be the first to be made?

[punchoutsb]

I believe the one word answer is: No. But we boxing fans tend to exaggerate everything. He is certainly a very good HW though.

Definitely a very good Heavyweight.
You don't win the title and defend it multiple times and be called average.
Some fans think that if a fighter is not top 10 all time they suck

Depending on your era you can be good and do it though. John Ruiz managed it, for example, and I don’t think he was “very good” either. He was good, which is better than average. But for arguments sake, John Ruiz was absolutely elite when compared to the vast majority of boxers ever. But he typically isn’t compared with the guy ranked 128th in 1912…because of his time as a belt holder with multiple defenses he’d always have to be compared against the top guys in which case very good isn’t the right description. I know it’s semantics and subjective to each persons description and context though.

[Tony1244]

I believe the one word answer is: No. But we boxing fans tend to exaggerate everything. He is certainly a very good HW though.

Definitely a very good Heavyweight.
You don't win the title and defend it multiple times and be called average.
Some fans think that if a fighter is not top 10 all time they suck

Which goes to show how little they know about the sport.

If you look at a list of the all time greatest boxers. The guy that was the 1500th best of all time would still be a total badass by the standards of your average joe, and was probably a consistent Top 10 ranked guy in his own era at the very worst.

Couldn't agree more. Boxing fans are the only fans that give their athletes so little respect. Casual fans are often only aware of a good fighter's losses. Take my favorite era for instance. My buddies remember Bobick better by when he was spoofed on SNL than they remember at one time he was the #1 or #2 ranked amateur. Marvis Frazier was also an excellent amateur and decent pro. He is also remembered by his KO by 1 fights.

[Sweet Dick Willie]

What is this

[Syntax Error]

Well this thread aged terribly. I still wonder if Kalan killed himself when Joshua lost to Ruiz or did the 2 Usyk losses finish him off with a heart attack?

I've often wondered this too.

I was dying to know what Kalan would have made of Joshua getting smoked by a tub of lard who took the fight on very short notice, not long after declaring AJ the best HW ever.

Kalan disappeared before the first Ruiz fight, so we never got to hear his musings on the issue.

Just imagine what he would have made of the two Usyk fights?

I think even Wilt Chamberlain would be shocked by those two fights.

[Enlightened-One]

Is Joshua the best Heavyweight ever?

Nope.

[margaret thatcher]

olympic gold + unified world pro champ, top 5 for nearly his whole career, numerous victories over ranked contenders

well done aj. most of these cats we hype as prospects wont even come close to that

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Boys, this is boxrec, and boxrec is your friend with friendly compilations of timelines and records conveniently found on links in the forum. I addressed this in the history section way back when Kalan was in full sway pulling monkey tails for fun and games.

To wit;
Anthony Joshua: age 27, 18-0, 18 KO, 44 rounds, 3-0, 3 KO title record. The Josh prime pro career has only just started, yet he is currently the best he’s ever been, so how does that stack up with the best heavyweights ever in a fair comparison, F-A-I-R being the keyword here?

Cross referencing the timelines involved using statistical variables yields the following:

Jack Dempsey 12-1-5, 11 KO 1916, age 19, no contender 5 years before title

Joe Louis 18-0, 14 KO 1935, age 21, no contender 2 years before title

Rocky Marciano 18-0, 17 KO 1949, age 25, no contender 3 year before title

Muhammad Ali 18-0, 14 KO 1963, age 22, one contender Doug Jones 1 year before title

Joe Frazier 18-0, 16 KO 1967, age 23, no contender 1 year before title

George Foreman 18-0, 15 KO 1970, age 21, no contender 3 years before title

Larry Holmes 18-0, 13 KO 1975, age 26, no contender 3 years before title

Mike Tyson 18-0, 18 KO 1986, age 19, no contender 9 months before title

Lennox Lewis 18-0, 16 KO 1991, age 26, no contender 2 years before title

Wladimir Klitschko 18-0, 17 KO 1998, age 21, no contender 2 years before title

My conclusion: AJ whoops all save the possibilities of still green Joe Louis, Foreman, Tyson, or Wlad getting to him. AJ easily whoops all their comp at that stage with not many of Josh’s comp being whooped by their comp as they build their records on the timeline. AJ represents the new continuation of supersized heavyweights that has taken over the division since the reigns of Lewis and the Klitschkos. His biggest advantage besides size/strength/boxing ability is being a fully mature age 27 in his athletic prime years with unparalleled success, scarcely losing a round. Most of the others were much younger at the same stage and less developed.

These I take to be the protagonists’ best career fight showing dominance without controversy or officiating help:
Joshua–undefeated Dillon Whyte pretitle

Jack Dempsey–KO champion Jess Willard in a epic beatdown

Joe Louis– KO rematch of 52-7-4 Max Schmeling in the biggest ever fight of the day broadcast by radio internationally to an estimated 70 million radios with uncounted numbers of listeners in dozens of countries gathered wherever a radio could pick up the relayed broadcasts

Rocky Marciano– KO 149-19-8 LH champ Archie Moore

Muhammad Ali– UD 39-4 WBA champ Ernie Terrell

Joe Frazier– UD Undefeated champ Ali in Fight of The Century/Fight of the Year

George Foreman– KO undefeated champ Joe Frazier

Larry Holmes– UD 20-2 contender Randall Cobb
.
Mike Tyson– UD undefeated WBC champ Tony Tucker

Lennox Lewis– UD once defeated 37-1 contender David Tua

Wlad Klitschko– UD undefeated Alexander Povetkin in his homeland of Russia while Russia was engaged in a low level war against Klitschko’s native Ukraine, so political animosity and armament was off the shelf.

Could Joe Louis beat Max Schmeling with the rematch being held in Nazi Germany? We can’t say other to note it was easier to beat Max in Yankee Stadium than to travel to hostile Berlin. Can Wlad beat AJ in front of 90,000 screaming meemies in England’s Wembley Stadium? In two weeks we’ll have that answer.

My conclusion for now: Dempsey, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, and Wlad comprehensively whooped better fighters than did AJ, and certainly Rocky also by the legendary status of Moore who might well whoop Whyte also even if a bit of a stretch size and age wise. Whyte vs Terrell or Cobb would be good 50-50 scraps. I could go into the 2nd and 3rd best bouts showing dominance, but this project just a short refresher of the historical timelines of these fighters, and by the end of his career, AJ surely will have many more scalps in comparison. Thing is, if AJ whoops Wlad in his upcoming, bingo, now he has a comparable victory to Frazier.

Finally, let’s look at where the fighters were at age 27 as Josh currently is.

Jack Dempsey age 27, out of boxing for that year, title record 4-0, 4 KO.

Joe Louis age 27, beat Buddy Baer, Billy Conn, Lou Nova, Buddy Baer rematch, Abe Simon, all title fights before being inducted into the Army for 3 yrs. Title record of 22-0, 19 KO.

Rocky Marciano age 27, usually by KO beat Tiger Ted Lowry, Bill Wilson, Keen Simmons, Harold Mitchell, Art Henri, Willis Applegate, Rex Layne, and Freddie Beshore, all pre-title fights the year before his title with Rex Layne being his first Ring ranked scalp.

Muhammad Ali age 27, in boxing exile up before the US Supreme Court for judgement with a title record of 10-0, 8 KO.

Joe Frazier age 27, BTFO out of Ali in FOTC/FOY. Title record 8-0, 6 KO.

George Foreman age 27, KOed Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, Scott Le Doux, and Dino Denis at the start of his comeback from Ali loss, title record of 3-1, 3 KO.

Larry Holmes age 27, beat Tom Prater, Horace Robinson(snicker,) and Fred Houpe, all unranked pre-title fights 2 years before his title.

Mike Tyson age 27 incarcerated on bogus rape charges arranged by DKing. Title record of 10-1, 8 KO.

Lennox Lewis age 27, beat Razor Ruddock and then Tony Tucker for his first title(vacated by Big Dummy Bowe)

Wlad Klitschko age 27, beat a couple of minor fringe contenders looking for his 2nd title, title record of 6-1, 5 KO.

My conclusion: Ali and Tyson were unavailable, but more proven and would be the favorites. Rocky and Holmes were too poorly tutored to beat AJ if ever, but Dempsey, Louis, Foreman, and Wlad were more proven and have excellent chances of knocking AJ out with AJ being the underdog. As much as I love Frazier, this a bad size and style matchup for him that I’d pick AJ over in spite of Frazier being more proven. Lewis knocking out washed up versions of Razor Ruddock and Tony Tucker yields no confidence in him as he always looked ready to faint when entering the ring. AJ in comparison has the Eric Molina defense to take him to a 3-0, 3KO title record, and he’s coming up on the Wlad challenge, so he has 7 more months to make his 27 year old destiny.

*** Oh, not to put too fine a point on the current heavy standings, I have from the ground zero outset stated Usyk was better than the 26-10-2, 15 KO record of Mr. Field.

Olympic gold, better and bigger pro opponents, currently 26-0, 16 KO. Take a mop up fight in a Ukrainian safe space for all the world to see(Putin is a fight fan) and retire to pursue whatever his eminence desires, preferably with a finger in politics or diplocmacy and let the blubber of Fury go pound sand with his MTK buddies

[Syntax Error]

olympic gold + unified world pro champ, top 5 for nearly his whole career, numerous victories over ranked contenders

well done aj. most of these cats we hype as prospects wont even come close to that

Good point.

You've got to give Joshua his due; even if he isn't the greatest HW ever, he's still better than most people who've ever laced up gloves and fought at the weight.

[lazboy]

olympic gold + unified world pro champ, top 5 for nearly his whole career, numerous victories over ranked contenders

well done aj. most of these cats we hype as prospects wont even come close to that

Good point.

You've got to give Joshua his due; even if he isn't the greatest HW ever, he's still better than most people who've ever laced up gloves and fought at the weight.

Respect.

[gp.]

I believe the one word answer is: No. But we boxing fans tend to exaggerate everything. He is certainly a very good HW though.

Definitely a very good Heavyweight.
You don't win the title and defend it multiple times and be called average.
Some fans think that if a fighter is not top 10 all time they suck

Depending on your era you can be good and do it though. John Ruiz managed it, for example, and I don’t think he was “very good” either. He was good, which is better than average. But for arguments sake, John Ruiz was absolutely elite when compared to the vast majority of boxers ever. But he typically isn’t compared with the guy ranked 128th in 1912…because of his time as a belt holder with multiple defenses he’d always have to be compared against the top guys in which case very good isn’t the right description. I know it’s semantics and subjective to each persons description and context though.

The phrase was Joshua is "a very good heavyweight" and I think that's unarguable.

John Ruiz was a very good heavyweight, and at the same time an average to poor world heavyweight champion. You only have to compare someone against the top guys if you explicitly state that's what you are doing.

[coneye]

His technique is obviously not on the hemisphere of Ali, Louis or Tyson, even Povetkin was technicly superior to Aj. But he simply has Foreman kind of punching power, high speed and is tall and athletic and unlike Wilder Joshua can box and is not just a body builder with a strong punch.

Do you feel like a bit of a dick now

[Thomastearns]

Joshua is still improving.

That alone is quite remarkable.


There's a lot to be said for the ability to keep learning, and Anthony Joshua has it.

After those 24 rounds with Usyk I expect AJ to blow anyone else away without too much sweat.

I'm not even too sure who else can give him a fight right now. After Usyk they'll all seem too slow and too easy to hit.

A bit like Don Bradman, the great Australian cricketer who after practicing using a stump to hit a golf ball in his youth then found a real cricket ball laughingly easy to hit with a bat.

[oogiebe]

Joshua is still improving.

That alone is quite remarkable.


There's a lot to be said for the ability to keep learning, and Anthony Joshua has it.

After those 24 rounds with Usyk I expect AJ to blow anyone else away without too much sweat.

I'm not even too sure who else can give him a fight right now. After Usyk they'll all seem too slow and too easy to hit.

A bit like Don Bradman, the great Australian cricketer who after practicing using a stump to hit a golf ball in his youth then found a real cricket ball laughingly easy to hit with a bat.

fan of AJ much?

[Thomastearns]

Joshua is still improving.

That alone is quite remarkable.


There's a lot to be said for the ability to keep learning, and Anthony Joshua has it.

After those 24 rounds with Usyk I expect AJ to blow anyone else away without too much sweat.

I'm not even too sure who else can give him a fight right now. After Usyk they'll all seem too slow and too easy to hit.

A bit like Don Bradman, the great Australian cricketer who after practicing using a stump to hit a golf ball in his youth then found a real cricket ball laughingly easy to hit with a bat.

fan of AJ much?

Anyone interested in HW boxing should be a fan seeing as how he's almost single handedly kept the HW scene interesting these past 6/7 years.

Take AJ out and it would have looked very ordinary indeed, wouldn't it?

Even as things stand, for me he's still the second best heavyweight out there and apart from the Parker and 2nd Ruiz fight all of his fights have been exciting.

It would be great to see him back out before the end of the year. However it now looks like he might have to sort out a few issues with his new trainer first.

Or find a new one.

I don't think he can go back to McCracken now.

Besides both his speed and conditioning looked a lot better against Usyk in the return.

https://talksport.com/sport/boxing/1125 ... k-rematch/

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

No, valuev. he was the heaviest

[oogiebe]

Joshua is still improving.

That alone is quite remarkable.


There's a lot to be said for the ability to keep learning, and Anthony Joshua has it.

After those 24 rounds with Usyk I expect AJ to blow anyone else away without too much sweat.

I'm not even too sure who else can give him a fight right now. After Usyk they'll all seem too slow and too easy to hit.

A bit like Don Bradman, the great Australian cricketer who after practicing using a stump to hit a golf ball in his youth then found a real cricket ball laughingly easy to hit with a bat.

fan of AJ much?

Anyone interested in HW boxing should be a fan seeing as how he's almost single handedly kept the HW scene interesting these past 6/7 years.

Take AJ out and it would have looked very ordinary indeed, wouldn't it?

Even as things stand, for me he's still the second best heavyweight out there and apart from the Parker and 2nd Ruiz fight all of his fights have been exciting.

It would be great to see him back out before the end of the year. However it now looks like he might have to sort out a few issues with his new trainer first.

Or find a new one.

I don't think he can go back to McCracken now.

Besides both his speed and conditioning looked a lot better against Usyk in the return.

https://talksport.com/sport/boxing/1125 ... k-rematch/

Yeah, you love him.

[KiwiRider]

Joshua is still improving.

That alone is quite remarkable.


There's a lot to be said for the ability to keep learning, and Anthony Joshua has it.

After those 24 rounds with Usyk I expect AJ to blow anyone else away without too much sweat.

I'm not even too sure who else can give him a fight right now. After Usyk they'll all seem too slow and too easy to hit.

A bit like Don Bradman, the great Australian cricketer who after practicing using a stump to hit a golf ball in his youth then found a real cricket ball laughingly easy to hit with a bat.

Agree. The second Uysk fight is the best I've seen him fight. He is still improving, unfortunately his best wasn't good enough to beat Uysk, but it would have been enough to beat anyone else on the night.
I think he has lost a bit of the wrecking ball he was early on, getting stopped by Fat Andy I think took a lot of his confidence away on what should have been an easy night's work.

[emallini]

Yes, he is.