Welterweights: Carmen Basilio vs Felix "Tito" Tri

[BoxBuzz]

STill it's hard to accept a scenario that puts Basilio and Vargas on roughly equal terms with one another. Does that sound right to others here? I mean would a Vargas Basilio fight be a close one?

[Borinken25]

STill it's hard to accept a scenario that puts Basilio and Vargas on roughly equal terms with one another. Does that sound right to others here? I mean would a Vargas Basilio fight be a close one?

Sorry Boxbuzz but lets flip the coin. Still it’s hard to accept a scenario that puts Trinidad and Johnny Cunninghan (3-13-3), Mike Koballa (14-4-2), Eddie Giosa (61-23- 8). Vic Cardell (47-8- 8) and so on… on roughly equal terms with one another. Now I ask you, Does that sound right to you?

[Borinken25]

Trinidad was stop in the 12 round by a big middleweight and one of the all-time greats. Now at the time they fought Campas was 56-0 (50KO’s), Vargas 20-0 (18KO’s), Joppy 32-1-1 (25KO’s) (and that loss on his record was robbery), Thiam 33-1 (30KO’s), and DLH 31-0 (25KO’s) and they couldn’t stop him. Suspect chin indeed. What makes people think that feather fisted Basilio would’ve stop Trinidad. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

[BoxBuzz]

Fair give and take here in my estimation. Borinken..good points I'd like to hear from more historians on this but I'm seeing some sense in the arguments being made. Not enough to put my money on Tito but moved nonetheless.

[elmersalsa]

Well, well, well...

How about that. First, the class of opposition of Basilio was BY FAR much greater than Tito and guys like the one and borinken believe other wise.

Not to mention that Carmen fought tougher fighters like Art Aragon, Gene Fullmer and Robinson. A Robinson that was not at his very best, but still could whip guys like Vargas, and Joppy and even Hopkins in any given night. I also could not see a Tito beat a Sugar Ray Seals, now beat the greatest fighter of all time, the one that fought Basilio twice in wars.

Everybody knows in this FORUM that Basilio's opposition was 2 or 3 times better than Tito's. No one cannot argue that, except Tito's fans.


Now, in the match why Basilio would have won this fight.

And let's go by facts PLEASE...FACTS:

FACT #1: Tito is a ONE DIMENSIONAL FIGHTER THAT GOT DOMINATED BY A LEFT JAB FOR YAH'S SAKE!!! When have we seen Basilio being outboxed by Robinson or Gavilan or Graham? Neither Basilio was NEVER OUTBOXED BY A LEFT JAB like Winky Wright did to Tito. This is a fact that no one canot deny.

FACT #2: Tito depends on his power and stamina. Specially he depends on the left hook. He could not beat a great fighter by decision. That is a FACT. BASILIO COULD WIN IN BOTH WAYS AGAINST A GREAT FIGHTER...He did it with Robinson and he did it with DeMarco...I do not think that Vargas, which was Tito's best win, was in DeMarco's class...No way!!!

FACT #3: Basilio is not an easy target like some people may think. He was very DIFFICULT to hit and knew what he was doing in there, even inside the exchanges. He usedt to come in a crouch which is difficult to hit him cleanly, plus, he had A GOOD JAB which was a DECOY for that SNEAKY RIGHT HAND. Tito would have been hit by that sneaky right 90% of the time at least...Why? because he was ONE DIMENSIONAL.

FACT #4: ONCE Carmen knows that Tito's best weapon was the left hook, it is over for Tito. A left hook is NOTHING when you do not have NOTHING TO HIT. It could be blocked, like the way Hopkins did, or you could go under the hook. Watch Basilio's fights and he used to go under left hooks because of the crouch stance.

FACT #5: TITO could be outboxed by Basilio and tha is a fact NOBODY CAN REFUTE. Can Tito outbox Carmen??? If the greatest did not do it, how can he? Plus, every time Tito is getting outboxed, he PANICS!!! He gets scared to be hit. Just watch the DLH, Wright and Hopkins tapes.

FACT #6: I cannot see a fighter like Basilio that came on top in perhaps THE HARDEST ERA IN BOXING lose to a guy like Trinidad.


I do not know, but that said it all. To me, Basilio would have eat him up for dinner. Basilio by TKO or UD.

[Borinken25]

Well, well, well...

How about that. First, the class of opposition of Basilio was BY FAR much greater than Tito and guys like the one and borinken believe other wise.

Not to mention that Carmen fought tougher fighters like Art Aragon, Gene Fullmer and Robinson. A Robinson that was not at his very best, but still could whip guys like Vargas, and Joppy and even Hopkins in any given night. I also could not see a Tito beat a Sugar Ray Seals, now beat the greatest fighter of all time, the one that fought Basilio twice in wars.

Everybody knows in this FORUM that Basilio's opposition was 2 or 3 times better than Tito's. No one cannot argue that, except Tito's fans.


Now, in the match why Basilio would have won this fight.

And let's go by facts PLEASE...FACTS:

FACT #1: Tito is a ONE DIMENSIONAL FIGHTER THAT GOT DOMINATED BY A LEFT JAB FOR YAH'S SAKE!!! When have we seen Basilio being outboxed by Robinson or Gavilan or Graham? Neither Basilio was NEVER OUTBOXED BY A LEFT JAB like Winky Wright did to Tito. This is a fact that no one canot deny.

FACT #2: Tito depends on his power and stamina. Specially he depends on the left hook. He could not beat a great fighter by decision. That is a FACT. BASILIO COULD WIN IN BOTH WAYS AGAINST A GREAT FIGHTER...He did it with Robinson and he did it with DeMarco...I do not think that Vargas, which was Tito's best win, was in DeMarco's class...No way!!!

FACT #3: Basilio is not an easy target like some people may think. He was very DIFFICULT to hit and knew what he was doing in there, even inside the exchanges. He usedt to come in a crouch which is difficult to hit him cleanly, plus, he had A GOOD JAB which was a DECOY for that SNEAKY RIGHT HAND. Tito would have been hit by that sneaky right 90% of the time at least...Why? because he was ONE DIMENSIONAL.

FACT #4: ONCE Carmen knows that Tito's best weapon was the left hook, it is over for Tito. A left hook is NOTHING when you do not have NOTHING TO HIT. It could be blocked, like the way Hopkins did, or you could go under the hook. Watch Basilio's fights and he used to go under left hooks because of the crouch stance.

FACT #5: TITO could be outboxed by Basilio and tha is a fact NOBODY CAN REFUTE. Can Tito outbox Carmen??? If the greatest did not do it, how can he? Plus, every time Tito is getting outboxed, he PANICS!!! He gets scared to be hit. Just watch the DLH, Wright and Hopkins tapes.

FACT #6: I cannot see a fighter like Basilio that came on top in perhaps THE HARDEST ERA IN BOXING lose to a guy like Trinidad.


I do not know, but that said it all. To me, Basilio would have eat him up for dinner. Basilio by TKO or UD.

Fact that many people forget Trinidad never lost to B or C fighters like Saxton, DeMarco, Paul Pender, Denny Moyer, Phil Moyer, Terry Downes, Mick Leahy, Memo Ayon, and Stan Harrington.

To me, Trinidad would’ve have eat him up for breakfast. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

[BoxBuzz]

I believe elmersalsa has brought the facts home to roost.

Any group of fair minded citizens would be drawn to this articulated assembly of realities as flys to maple syrup. This is logic that can build trust, instill confidence, all the while restoring faith. A testament of truth, facts and honorable process. It is difficult to mount more than a wisp of a counter argument to such a dramatic, powerfully detailed and well documented manifest.

The defense rests it's case, And requests, no...demands.... that logic dictate justice in the matter of Trinidad vs Basilio. We ask that the jury grant Carmen Basilio his proper place of honor in this particular pugilistic perplexity.

[elmersalsa]

I believe elmersalsa has brought the facts home to roost.

Any group of fair minded citizens would be drawn to this articulated assembly of realities as flys to maple syrup. This is logic that can build trust, instill confidence, all the while restoring faith. A testament of truth, facts and honorable process. It is difficult to mount more than a wisp of a counter argument to such a dramatic, powerfully detailed and well documented manifest.

The defense rests it's case, And requests, no...demands.... that logic dictate justice in the matter of Trinidad vs Basilio. We ask that the jury grant Carmen Basilio his proper place of honor in this particular pugilistic perplexity.

Amen my brother. Basilio was the BETTER FIGHTER BY FAR!!!

[elmersalsa]

Fact that many people forget Trinidad never lost to B or C fighters like Saxton, DeMarco, Paul Pender, Denny Moyer, Phil Moyer, Terry Downes, Mick Leahy, Memo Ayon, and Stan Harrington.

To me, Trinidad would’ve have eat him up for breakfast. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

IT LOOKS TO ME THAT THIS GUY NEVER SAW BASILIO IR DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT THE GREAT CONTENDERS AND CHAMPIONS OF THE 50S AND 60S

Basilio in his PRIME never lost to a C or D class fighter either. To rate Saxton, DeMarco, Pender and the likes like Denny Moyer as C class fighters tells me how much this guy has NEVER seen them fight nor watch the records of this excellent pugilists.

[Borinken25]

My turn:

Fact 1:Basilio never fought anyone with the power of Trinidad and please do not try to embarrass yourself by bringing a way past his prime Robinson not to mention that he defeated Robinson at 160lb not his best weight.

Fact 2: Basilio lost to C and D fighters like Cunningham, Koballa, Gioas, Cordell and Felton. (Please no excuses)

Fact 3: Lew Jenkins = Hector Camacho
Ike Williams= Pernell Whitaker

Fact 4: Was baldly outclass by and old and ancient Graham.
Won and Draw again against an old and ancient way past his prime Graham. Wow impressive a win against a grandfather ready to retire Graham. For the record Graham record after his draw vs. Basilio was 2 wins against bums and four loses in a row, which should tell you how past his prime he was. Can you imagine what a prime Trinidad would’ve done to Basilio?

Fact 5: Trinidad pin point accuracy and Basilio willingness to exchange makes him the perfect fighter to get KO by Trinidad. I mean he fit’s the profile exactly down to the last letter of the type of fighter that Trinidad feasted on.

Fact 6: Saxton and Demarco were at best class B or B- nothing especial about them.

Fact 7: Lost to Kid Gavilan and was again badly outboxed the second half of the fight.

Fact: 8: Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

In conclusion his best wins were against old an ancient way past their prime fighters.
Argue with that.

[BoxBuzz]

that aint neccessarily so.

[Chuck1052]

Carmen Basilio's boxing style wasn't pretty, but it was
very effective. I think that he would beat Felix Trinidad.

- Chuck Johnston

[Borinken25]

Fact 3: Lew Jenkins = Hector Camacho

Why not just say, "John Ruiz = Joe Louis"?

The comparison that I make between Jenkins and Camacho is not based on their fighting ability. At the time that Basilio fought Jenkins and Williams they were both past their prime and same goes Camacho and Whitaker and his fights with Trinidad, so for me those wins are meaningless in assessing how well will Basilio or Trinidad would do in a fight head to head. IMHO so was Graham at the time he fought Basilio he was on his way down and even like that he managed to completely out boxed and outclass Basilio. Similar to what Hopkins did to Trinidad. Nonetheless Trinidad power would’ve been too much for Basilio who would’ve put a tremendous fight, but end losing to Trinidad’s power inside of 9 rounds.

[BoxBuzz]

Carmen Basilio's boxing style wasn't pretty, but it was
very effective. I think that he would beat Felix Trinidad.

- Chuck Johnston

....what he said...

[dizneyfist]

Trinidad always had problems against elite boxers especially bigger boxers but when it comes down to sluggers Trinidad always had the upper hand. Come on guys remember it took Hopkins a whole entire bout of beatdown to stop Trinidad not to mention he needed to push him down too so he would actually fall. What makes you think a much smaller Basilio would have any chance of imposing his will especially at welterweight. Basilio's heart is the only thing that helps him stay alive till the eighth in which will be the round where he won't be able to see and his corner will throw in the towel. Remember Trinidad was a better fighter at 147 where he worked for the knockout and with his leathal accuracy Basilio would realize early that he would be way in over his head.

[dizneyfist]

Tito had world class power but a poor chin and nothing much else in his arsenal is really that impressive..

For over a decade Tito was one of the most dominating fighters in the world. That must have been a fluke according to you. By the way, Tito was only ko'd once against all time great middleweight Hopkins.

Basilo is one of the toughest guys to ever get in the ring... look at his record, the guys he fought, this man wasnt a powder puff..

Ive seen his record. Alot of losses to fighters not exactley in Tito's league. A tough showing against an aging Gavilan, who never beat a fighter of note after that. A win a loss and a draw against old man Billy Graham and ancient lightweight great Ike Williams. The only two stand out fights on his record were a wins against Saxton and Demarco. Very good fighters but far from greats. His win against Robinson demonstrates not how great Basillio was but how done Robinson was by that time. Notice that Basillo didnt accomplish much else at middleweight.

Basilo would walk right through Tito, whose there to hit all night, and Carmen would win what I think would be a rather one-sided fight in about 5 rounds...

Basillio never faced anyone with Tito's two fisted power. Besides Saxton, Basillio never ko'd any world class oppisition in 5 rounds or less. In fact Basillio rarely ko'd any world class fighters.

Tito was fairly good but Carmen is an all time great and a league above...

Tito is an all time great welterweight who looked like a frieght train until he ran into Hokpkins. Hopkins at the period of time was a better fighter than the Robinson Basillio beat for the title.
To put Basillio a league above Tito is, no offense, rather silly.

Basillio has a better chance beating Mayorga but not Trinidad who would circle around Basillio till he got dizzy and falls before Trinidad ever gets a chance to hit him.

[Borinken25]

Trinidad always had problems against elite boxers especially bigger boxers but when it comes down to sluggers Trinidad always had the upper hand. Come on guys remember it took Hopkins a whole entire bout of beatdown to stop Trinidad not to mention he needed to push him down too so he would actually fall. What makes you think a much smaller Basilio would have any chance of imposing his will especially at welterweight. Basilio's heart is the only thing that helps him stay alive till the eighth in which will be the round where he won't be able to see and his corner will throw in the towel. Remember Trinidad was a better fighter at 147 where he worked for the knockout and with his leathal accuracy Basilio would realize early that he would be way in over his head.

Welcome to the forum and I agree 100% with everything you said. Guys wake up and smell the coffee. I know some of you feel nostalgic but the reality is that Basilio style was taylor made for Trinidad style and with a great display of heart he would’ve lost to Tito’s power. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

[elmersalsa]

It seems for Puerto Ricans that Tito could ONLY lose to Leonard, Hagler or Robinson.
Any other fighter against him SHALL LOSE BY KO. I could not UNDERSTAND IN HOW THAT A GUY THAT WAS DOMINATED BY A JAB BY WINKY WRIGHT COULD BEAT A GUY LIKE BASILIO.

The other thing here is that they are trying to put Basilio's quality of opposition as close to Trinidad. To agree with that is so UNFAIR and is like a vomit. It must be NATIONALISM I GUESS.

They want to compare Basilio to the likes of Yory Boy Campas and Luis Garcia. Boxers that were so far BELOW IN QUALITY to Basilio to begin with.

Tito would have NEVER beat a washed up Sugar Ray Robinson, never more the one that fought Basilio in 2 classic wars.

The other thing is that Tito was so ONE DIMENSIONAL that got dominated by a jab. I could not imagine then against a guy with Basilio's pressure.

Then, they want to put Basilio's losses against C fighters, without realizing that Tito would have lost to those guys mentioned too.

Kid Gavilan would have beat Trinidad silly. Basilio fought a PRIME Gavilan and they robbed him according to some experts.

Then, Gavilan must be Yory Boy Campas too???

I rather take a shit in this argument.

[Arbachakov]

Trinidad's competition gets horribly overrated by his fans.

You know something went badly wrong somewhere when you hear wins against the inept Campas, ordinary Reid\Vargas, plus mediocre paper champion Joppy(one of the worst middleweight champions of all-time) being mentioned.

Basilio was one of the strongest fighters i've ever seen and had terrific balance and underrated boxing skills similar to Carlos Ortiz(a far better Rican than Tito).

Carmen batters him over the second half of the fight to a clear decision win after taking everything tito throws at him.

[teen guru]

trinidad outboxes carmen --

[Borinken25]

It seems for Puerto Ricans that Tito could ONLY lose to Leonard, Hagler or Robinson.
Any other fighter against him SHALL LOSE BY KO. I could not UNDERSTAND IN HOW THAT A GUY THAT WAS DOMINATED BY A JAB BY WINKY WRIGHT COULD BEAT A GUY LIKE BASILIO.

The other thing here is that they are trying to put Basilio's quality of opposition as close to Trinidad. To agree with that is so UNFAIR and is like a vomit. It must be NATIONALISM I GUESS.

They want to compare Basilio to the likes of Yory Boy Campas and Luis Garcia. Boxers that were so far BELOW IN QUALITY to Basilio to begin with.

Tito would have NEVER beat a washed up Sugar Ray Robinson, never more the one that fought Basilio in 2 classic wars.

The other thing is that Tito was so ONE DIMENSIONAL that got dominated by a jab. I could not imagine then against a guy with Basilio's pressure.

Then, they want to put Basilio's losses against C fighters, without realizing that Tito would have lost to those guys mentioned too.

Kid Gavilan would have beat Trinidad silly. Basilio fought a PRIME Gavilan and they robbed him according to some experts.

Then, Gavilan must be Yory Boy Campas too???

I rather take a shit in this argument.

You can keep writing as big as you want, but the fact will remain the same. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds . Talk about overrated fights: lost to Gavilan and has wins against way over the hill ancient fighters like Jenkins, Williams, Graham and Robinson. Trinidad would’ve have a field day with basilio ending the fight in spectacular KO inside of 9 rounds and that is all I have to say.

Here enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb1pkxHR48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxk30NVcPtA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilWBPo7Cfw4

[Borinken25]

You make the same stupid prediction in every fight. You probably thought Trinidad would beat Bernard Hopkins "by KO, inside nine rounds." Trinidad was a one-dimensional brawler who hid behind a paper title, and got exposed every time he moved up in class.

And you always make the same stupid reply. TRINIDAD BY KO INSIDE OF 9 ROUNDS.
Like always I will ask some questions and you will come back bitching and changing the subject.
1. Did Basilio was exposed when an old and ancient Graham school him?
2. Did Basilio was exposed when Gavilan school him?
3. Does Basilio deserves any credit for defeating a way past his prime Jenkins, Williams, Graham and Robinson?
4. Did Basilio was exposed when Fullmer TKO him 2x?
Decagon you are full of shit and I can't take anything you say seriouly, for me you have turn out to be a joke who can't debate points and hide behind insults to change the subject. Grow up. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

[Borinken25]

Unlike Trinidad, Basilio actually did beat a few good fighters in his career. Trinidad beat Carr, and a featherweight from that faggot island of his.

Again with another ignorant insult you just proved my point. Answer any of my questions. What good fighter on his prime did he actually beat? Again and again you’re just a joke. Education starts in your house and apparently you didn’t get enough. Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.

[BoxBuzz]

borinken to be fair.......large fonts in and of themselves also do not make for a good point. In fact depending on the occasion it may make your miscalculation all the more embarassing.

I might in this case deduct style points from Decagon but minus the insults and other nonsense, the substance of his statement holds some water.....at least in my opinion.

[Borinken25]

borinken to be fair.......large fonts in and of themselves also do not make for a good point. In fact depending on the occasion it may make your miscalculation all the more embarassing.

I might in this case deduct style points from Decagon but minus the insults and other nonsense, the substance of his statement holds some water.....at least in my opinion.

I do agree BoxBuzz that large fonts do not make for a good point, but the insults and stupid bully tactics that Decagon is trying to use don’t work for me either. Maybe you do agree with his way but I don’t and I personally do not see Basilio winning this fight no matter how hard any of you try. Just like you don’t see it may way either.
This is what I see:
1. Trinidad power whether many people accepted or not was something that in this fight would’ve made a difference.
2. Basilio style was perfect for Trinidad
3. Trinidad was outclass by Hopkins, but what about Basilio being completely outclass by an old an ancient Graham?
4. Trinidad was outclass by Winky, but what about Basilio being outclass by Gavilan?
5. Trinidad was not a perfect fighter, but neither was Basilio and his 16 loses in his record are a testament to that not to mention that his style IMO was perfect for Trinidad style and I just don’t see Basilio winning this fight.
And Stupid, low life, ignorant replies from Decagon will not change my mind.
Decagon a little advice bully tactics don’t work with grown ups and if you think for one second that your low life replies are going to scare me think again.
I’m sure not everyone agrees with me, but you will find people that do agree with me so I don’t think there is anything embarrassing about that, is just your opinion vs. mine.
In my honest opinion Trinidad by KO inside of 9 rounds.