Apologies if this has been touched on before. I had a look via the search function but couldn’t find a similar related thread.
Why don’t the US dominant the heavyweight division as in previous eras?
US boxers dominated the heavyweight scene through my childhood and did so with the eras before. Yes there has been sporadic periods where another nations boxer has stolen the limelight but until the 2000’s these periods were fleeting.
There could be a plethora of superficial reasons why the US don’t dominate as they did in yesteryear, name me some.
US heavyweights.
Re: US heavyweights.
There are several factors:
1. The emerge of professional sport on the post-Soviet territory.
2. The corruption in the boxing politics (the problem of networks, sanctioning bodies, etc).
3. Following from the previous point, the decline of interest in boxing in favor of MMA in the US.
4. Also connected to the 2nd point in some way, the decline of Don King, who controlled the division through the 70s, 80s and 90s.
5. The growth of interest to the lesser weights / the Mayweather factor.
6. The rise of the British scene.
Those are among the major ones, but surely there can be other points.
1. The emerge of professional sport on the post-Soviet territory.
2. The corruption in the boxing politics (the problem of networks, sanctioning bodies, etc).
3. Following from the previous point, the decline of interest in boxing in favor of MMA in the US.
4. Also connected to the 2nd point in some way, the decline of Don King, who controlled the division through the 70s, 80s and 90s.
5. The growth of interest to the lesser weights / the Mayweather factor.
6. The rise of the British scene.
Those are among the major ones, but surely there can be other points.
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Riddick Bowie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 947
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003, 07:25
Re: US heavyweights.
A couple of things. The gradual decline in interest in boxing post the free-to-air Muhammad Ali era with the concomitant disappearance of boxing gyms and numbers of Americans boxing.
Then you have to look to the ghettoes that produced so many of the great black fighters. They used to breed tough guys through street fighting. But since the mid-80s it's been drug dealing, gang killing and/or lengthy prison sentences. Welfare reforms incentivised a lot of behaviours not conducive to a disciplined, orderly life or career in sports. Those that are athletically gifted and have some agency go to the sports which are still big, football and basketball. Which ghetto kid grew up with HBO subscriptions and premium TVKO PPVs for the heavyweight title fights? The whole country watched Ali/Frazier. The Bowe/Holyfield trilogy was probably only seen at the time by middle aged, middle class men!
A lot of these strong, methodical, efficient but unexciting Soviet heavies would have been bumped off by the usual high standard of American heavies but those, for the above reasons, are an extinct species.
So boxing in the US made itself through greed an expensive, hard to follow niche sport while poor athletic kids pursued careers in the big sports.
Then you have to look to the ghettoes that produced so many of the great black fighters. They used to breed tough guys through street fighting. But since the mid-80s it's been drug dealing, gang killing and/or lengthy prison sentences. Welfare reforms incentivised a lot of behaviours not conducive to a disciplined, orderly life or career in sports. Those that are athletically gifted and have some agency go to the sports which are still big, football and basketball. Which ghetto kid grew up with HBO subscriptions and premium TVKO PPVs for the heavyweight title fights? The whole country watched Ali/Frazier. The Bowe/Holyfield trilogy was probably only seen at the time by middle aged, middle class men!
A lot of these strong, methodical, efficient but unexciting Soviet heavies would have been bumped off by the usual high standard of American heavies but those, for the above reasons, are an extinct species.
So boxing in the US made itself through greed an expensive, hard to follow niche sport while poor athletic kids pursued careers in the big sports.
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
- Posts: 15185
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 18:31
Re: US heavyweights.
Guess there are several reasons (some have been touched on) that sort of overlap each other..
When you get down to it, boxing just isn't anywhere near as popular in the United States as it used to be.
We can debate why that is, but it is the main reason. If there aren't boxing fans, there simply aren't going to be people who want to become boxers. Therfore, the talent pool is quite shallow.
It was the number two sport (behind only baseball) up until at least the 1950s.
It was still a solid #4 until the 1990s.
Now it is well behind not only baseball, football, basketball, but also tennis, hockey, auto racing. Even gymnastics, swimming and track; probably more than that.
Nobody talks boxing anymore. If we step outside of the Boxrec bubble we see this.
Try asking random people who Deontay Wilder or Tyson Fury is; you would probably have to talk dozens of people before finding one who would know they were boxers.
,
When you get down to it, boxing just isn't anywhere near as popular in the United States as it used to be.
We can debate why that is, but it is the main reason. If there aren't boxing fans, there simply aren't going to be people who want to become boxers. Therfore, the talent pool is quite shallow.
It was the number two sport (behind only baseball) up until at least the 1950s.
It was still a solid #4 until the 1990s.
Now it is well behind not only baseball, football, basketball, but also tennis, hockey, auto racing. Even gymnastics, swimming and track; probably more than that.
Nobody talks boxing anymore. If we step outside of the Boxrec bubble we see this.
Try asking random people who Deontay Wilder or Tyson Fury is; you would probably have to talk dozens of people before finding one who would know they were boxers.
,
Re: US heavyweights.
Right. And this kinda sums up the experience I've had with Boxing fans too. Even if they've heard of a guy. Or they know who he is. What they know is all wrong.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Sep 2022, 13:05 Guess there are several reasons (some have been touched on) that sort of overlap each other..
When you get down to it, boxing just isn't anywhere near as popular in the United States as it used to be.
We can debate why that is, but it is the main reason. If there aren't boxing fans, there simply aren't going to be people who want to become boxers. Therfore, the talent pool is quite shallow.
It was the number two sport (behind only baseball) up until at least the 1950s.
It was still a solid #4 until the 1990s.
Now it is well behind not only baseball, football, basketball, but also tennis, hockey, auto racing. Even gymnastics, swimming and track; probably more than that.
Nobody talks boxing anymore. If we step outside of the Boxrec bubble we see this.
Try asking random people who Deontay Wilder or Tyson Fury is; you would probably have to talk dozens of people before finding one who would know they were boxers.
,
For instance "Manny Pacquiao's bad he's knocked out everyone he's ever faced!"
or "Errol Spence he's stopped everyone he's fought for the last 5 years"
Fans have said this stuff to me. The Errol Spence one was recently.
So even when average fans know of a fighter. They don't actually KNOW what he's done, they just have heard people say he's good.
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Wee Tommy
- Heavyweight
Re: US heavyweights.
The likes of HBO ruined boxing. Add to that the competition between promoters is usually greater than that of the boxers. There are still fans, as evidenced by Floyd Jnrs incredible earnings. It’s just the sports set up is absolute dog shit for fans.
Over the past 20 years there’s often been more talk of the fights that didn’t happen than those that did.
Basketball and Football paying far better with better benefits to athletes has also contributed. Only around .1% of boxers make enough to retire with earnings from the sport. The rest have to work and also sell tickets themselves to make their careers possible.
Then there’s the UFC. The only criticism that can be legitimately levelled at them as an organisation is that they underpay the majority of the fighters. From a fans perspective however, the best fights get made and made often. Barring injury, you never have to wait long for a top fight to be made.
Over the past 20 years there’s often been more talk of the fights that didn’t happen than those that did.
Basketball and Football paying far better with better benefits to athletes has also contributed. Only around .1% of boxers make enough to retire with earnings from the sport. The rest have to work and also sell tickets themselves to make their careers possible.
Then there’s the UFC. The only criticism that can be legitimately levelled at them as an organisation is that they underpay the majority of the fighters. From a fans perspective however, the best fights get made and made often. Barring injury, you never have to wait long for a top fight to be made.
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The Docker
- Bantamweight
- Posts: 610
- Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 15:26
Re: US heavyweights.
All cracking replies and not one I would challenge and a fair few I’d not have thought of.
Was thinking the other day, its fundamentally f’d at grass roots level.
I went to the local boxing club at 15 in my last year of high school. I had the option of a boxing club 6miles north of where I live, 7 miles east and another local one direct south.
None of these clubs now exist. There were lads from my schoolyear who went earlier than me, circa 13 / 14 and our dads thoroughly endorsed this route.
Does this still happen in a town-by-town basis? It was commonplace when I was growing up for teenage lads to join a boxing club. Yeah most dropped out when they got their nose bloodied or they got that lovely whiff of skirt and a booze.
When I was at high school, boxing was on the school curriculum for my first two years and then evidently must have been outlawed, ironically enough I got the cane in my first two years so that must’ve been outlawed at the same time.
For many many reasons, boxing just isn’t en vogue anymore. It's sad and unless a huge overall of societal demographics towards boxing, can’t see it getting back to its former glories.
Was thinking the other day, its fundamentally f’d at grass roots level.
I went to the local boxing club at 15 in my last year of high school. I had the option of a boxing club 6miles north of where I live, 7 miles east and another local one direct south.
None of these clubs now exist. There were lads from my schoolyear who went earlier than me, circa 13 / 14 and our dads thoroughly endorsed this route.
Does this still happen in a town-by-town basis? It was commonplace when I was growing up for teenage lads to join a boxing club. Yeah most dropped out when they got their nose bloodied or they got that lovely whiff of skirt and a booze.
When I was at high school, boxing was on the school curriculum for my first two years and then evidently must have been outlawed, ironically enough I got the cane in my first two years so that must’ve been outlawed at the same time.
For many many reasons, boxing just isn’t en vogue anymore. It's sad and unless a huge overall of societal demographics towards boxing, can’t see it getting back to its former glories.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Re: US heavyweights.
I would say the decline of boxing in America as a whole has widely contributed to that. Back in the early 2000s and prior there used to be a lot of small promotions all over the country, and you would see quite a lot of people participating in boxing. Increased regulations due to people like John McCain and Harry Reid essentially killed off smaller promotions in boxing.
Then throw in the fact that basically from the 1970s onward other sports started having tremendous salaries--- I remember watching interviews with Ernie Ladd who left the NFL (1960s) for professional wrestling because simply professional wrestling paid more back then. Boxing is still the richest sport monetarily for athletes, but when you have guaranteed contracts paying you seven figures per year regardless of how much you play, it's really a no-brainer why somebody would choose basketball or football or baseball instead especially when boxing has more risks.
Furthermore, when you have a competing combat sport that knows how to market itself better than boxing can (MMA) with athletes that have crossed over into the cultural mainstream, is it any wonder why boxing gyms have either shut down or have incorporated MMA as well? Most people don't know how to box, but almost every grade school has wrestling--- therefore it's easier to transition into MMA than it is to transition into boxing.
Lastly, I would say the amateur system and even the semi-pro circuit (including Toughman) for maybe 20 or 30 years was just absolutely pitiful or was simply not around like it used to be. That's why I love how British boxing is, because there is so many levels of competition. More opportunities and avenues to take. What they call "semi-pro" now (WSB) I don't personally consider to be semi-pro, but rather a money making scheme for amateurs who already have sponsors and financial backers to make money. When I think "semi-pro" I think automatically of the White Collar Circuit in Britain, and that is hardly what the world series of boxing is.
Then throw in the fact that basically from the 1970s onward other sports started having tremendous salaries--- I remember watching interviews with Ernie Ladd who left the NFL (1960s) for professional wrestling because simply professional wrestling paid more back then. Boxing is still the richest sport monetarily for athletes, but when you have guaranteed contracts paying you seven figures per year regardless of how much you play, it's really a no-brainer why somebody would choose basketball or football or baseball instead especially when boxing has more risks.
Furthermore, when you have a competing combat sport that knows how to market itself better than boxing can (MMA) with athletes that have crossed over into the cultural mainstream, is it any wonder why boxing gyms have either shut down or have incorporated MMA as well? Most people don't know how to box, but almost every grade school has wrestling--- therefore it's easier to transition into MMA than it is to transition into boxing.
Lastly, I would say the amateur system and even the semi-pro circuit (including Toughman) for maybe 20 or 30 years was just absolutely pitiful or was simply not around like it used to be. That's why I love how British boxing is, because there is so many levels of competition. More opportunities and avenues to take. What they call "semi-pro" now (WSB) I don't personally consider to be semi-pro, but rather a money making scheme for amateurs who already have sponsors and financial backers to make money. When I think "semi-pro" I think automatically of the White Collar Circuit in Britain, and that is hardly what the world series of boxing is.