If Jimmy Ellis defended his title against Sonny Liston in Dec 68?

[Benny The Kid]

This match would feature Jimmy Ellis at his peak fresh off a Floyd Patterson defeat in Sep 68. Before his long layoff prior to fighting Joe Frazier and losing. Jimmy Ellis age 28

This match would feature Sonny Liston aged but well tuned up fresh off a Roger Rischer KO exactly 10 fights into his comeback. What Sonny Liston's real age would be I do not know.

I have Jimmy Ellis ahead of Cleveland Williams & all of Liston's best defeats. I understand Liston was avoided often so it's hard for me to criticize his competion level but i find it slightly suspect. So in this match Ellis is unable to duck him & forced into a champion defense of the crown in his prime.

Can Liston beat what i would say would be his best victory? In my simulation fight's Liston is ahead of Ellis but that is prime Liston.

I wondering if anyone thinks Liston could win this with all his ring skills & fairly well tuned up in his post-prime version vs a heavyweight Champion in his prime who isn't a bomber like Frazier or Foreman.

Ellis beat Bonavena, Quarry & patterson before this fight and later Chuvalo.

Honestly that seems better to me than Machen, Folley & Cleveland Williams & Patterson.

I think this fight would be razor thin based on a Simulation of a prime Ellis vs a post-prime Liston. Very Close.

Things would of sure been interesting If Liston was able to win this and gave a younger Frazier a title shot with Liston as Champion in an alternate universe in beginning of 1969 a year before he fought Jimmy Ellis.


A quick recap of Liston's only comeback loss:
Sonny Liston certainly didn't appear washed up in his loss to Leotis Martin. He was suffering from a severe Nose injury causing him very difficult breathing his trainer called it a freak injury after the fight. Liston was ahead on the scorcards and even sent Leotis Martin to the canvas in round 4. Liston could of had stamina problem possibly or it was a direct result of his nose causing him very difficult breathing but he was to exhausted to rise and doesn't appear as if he wanted too. as he positioned his head to get more comfortable. These comments are only provided to attest to the fact he wasn't as washed up as some many speculate and this was in fact a full year after this fight would be taking place giving Liston a bit more youth.

[gilgamesh]

He would've outboxed and stopped Liston.

Liston was washed up by this time.

[klompton]

He would have kicked the shit out of Liston. He offered Liston a title fight in 1969 and Liston turned it down. He knew he wasnt going to be beating anyone worth a damn at that point.

[Benny The Kid]

He would have kicked the shit out of Liston. He offered Liston a title fight in 1969 and Liston turned it down. He knew he wasnt going to be beating anyone worth a damn at that point.

I was not aware of that i will have to look for it in newspapers. How close do you suspect it will be in their prime? Klompton.

I haven't seen film of liston on his comeback trail so it's hard for me to get a gauge on his effectiveness. As i stated i think Jimmy Ellis is a much bettter than either Patterson or Cleveland Williams was it would of been nice to see Liston beat a few more names from the list that was avoiding him but i am unbiased and i can't hold that against him.

I have a customized Simulation i created from universal boxrec data incorporated appropriately across each fighter. The object i had in mind was to try & find a fighter's true potential based of merits of their own accomplishments and weaknesses not having a machine try & dictate to me it's own thought's (on other creations of boxing games) and the fun part is acting as manager and leaning how to develop boxers properly as the simulation certainly will have guy's lose their confidence.

In Simulation it produced some rather close results.

Fight 1: Ellis W Ko 14
Fight 2: Draw 12
Fight 3: Liston W 15
Fight 4 Draw 15
Fight 5 Draw 15
Fight 6 Liston W 15
Fight 7: Liston Ko 13

As with most Top tier of their era the results produced a back & forth affair.
This is Era 3 Born 28-39.

These are top 2 of that Era #1 Liston & #2 Ellis #3 Terrell and #4 Cleveland W and #5 Patterson. Is how simulation would perceive matters. Jimmy Ellis is pretty close to his pier (liston). As he was getting victories awarded and had some judges he wasn't getting credit for winning in the draws. I found the results pretty interesting.

[klompton]

He would have kicked the shit out of Liston. He offered Liston a title fight in 1969 and Liston turned it down. He knew he wasnt going to be beating anyone worth a damn at that point.

I was not aware of that i will have to look for it in newspapers. How close do you suspect it will be in their prime? Klompton.

I haven't seen film of liston on his comeback trail so it's hard for me to get a gauge on his effectiveness. As i stated i think Jimmy Ellis is a much bettter than either Patterson or Cleveland Williams was it would of been nice to see Liston beat a few more names from the list that was avoiding him but i am unbiased and i can't hold that against him.

I have a customized Simulation i created from universal boxrec data incorporated appropriately across each fighter. The object i had in mind was to try & find a fighter's true potential based of merits of their own accomplishments and weaknesses not having a machine try & dictate to me it's own thought's (on other creations of boxing games) and the fun part is acting as manager and leaning how to develop boxers properly as the simulation certainly will have guy's lose their confidence.

In Simulation it produced some rather close results.

Fight 1: Ellis W Ko 14
Fight 2: Draw 12
Fight 3: Liston W 15
Fight 4 Draw 15
Fight 5 Draw 15
Fight 6 Liston W 15
Fight 7: Liston Ko 13

As with most Top tier of their era the results produced a back & forth affair.
This is Era 3 Born 28-39.

These are top 2 of that Era #1 Liston & #2 Ellis #3 Terrell and #4 Cleveland W and #5 Patterson. Is how simulation would perceive matters. Jimmy Ellis is pretty close to his pier (liston). As he was getting victories awarded and had some judges he wasn't getting credit for winning in the draws. I found the results pretty interesting.

LOL. In 1968 Liston, was 38 and hadnt gone more than 7 rounds in eight years but hes going to get a late round KO or decision in the championship rounds against a legitimately talented and top rated fighter? HA! If Liston doesnt land something big early hes getting the shit kicked out of him likely quitting before the 10th round.