Joe Frazier over Evander Holyfield

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

is there any logical reason for ranking holyfield over frazier on an all time heavyweight list? i dont think so

[evndrbsn]

Do you have to make a new thread for everything? Man, I already said why I thought Holyfield was better and other people chimed in their opinions on the same thing. You just want us all to rehash the same stuff again?

[sockdolager]

Holy to me ranks higher as an all time fighter but as a HW Id put Frazier first.

[thunderfromdownunder]

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

[meade95]

is there any logical reason for ranking holyfield over frazier on an all time heavyweight list? i dont think so

Holyfield ranks higher as a fighter - Taking his success from Crusierweight up through Heavyweight -

Additionally I see Holyfield winning a hard, close decision if these two met at HW.

A prime Holyfield pound for pound would match up just fine with Frazier. Holyfield had faster hands, a better counter puncher - Holyfield loved guys who just waded into him - Frazier would bring it without a doubt (I love Smokin Joe!)....but Holyfield would counter him all night and work his way to a UD.

[evndrbsn]

is there any logical reason for ranking holyfield over frazier on an all time heavyweight list? i dont think so

Holyfield ranks higher as a fighter - Taking his success from Crusierweight up through Heavyweight -

Additionally I see Holyfield winning a hard, close decision if these two met at HW.

A prime Holyfield pound for pound would match up just fine with Frazier. Holyfield had faster hands, a better counter puncher - Holyfield loved guys who just waded into him - Frazier would bring it without a doubt (I love Smokin Joe!)....but Holyfield would counter him all night and work his way to a UD.

I agree. He'd either win an exciting close decision or TKO him late.

[evndrbsn]

www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44 ... sc&start=0

See Brock, this is why you don't go aimlessly starting new threads. Search first!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

holy had faster hands than frazier? are u sure......i always thought frazier had faster hands than holyfield.

[evndrbsn]

holy had faster hands than frazier? are u sure......i always thought frazier had faster hands than holyfield.

Positive. Go watch the tapes again.

[silkov]

Fast hands aint everything and if Holifields hands are faster than joes theres not much in it... with respect to Evander to rate him over Frazier is a pure crime.... watch Frazier vs Ali 1 then watch Evander struggle against a 43 year old Larry Holmes... watch any of Fraziers peak fights and then watch Evander almost koed by Smoking Bert Cooper... have a peek at the difference in class of opposition... Frazier operated when the division was at its all time height in terms of talent and opposition while Evander came along when the talent pool was dying away yet still struggled against 2 all timers in their mid 40s... I've great respect for Evander but Joe Frazier is in a different league as a fighter... Fraziers top 5 all time imo while Evander is about top 15... had they fought Frazier would have murdered Evander...

[The Great John L]

Fast hands aint everything and if Holifields hands are faster than joes theres not much in it... with respect to Evander to rate him over Frazier is a pure crime.... watch Frazier vs Ali 1 then watch Evander struggle against a 43 year old Larry Holmes... watch any of Fraziers peak fights and then watch Evander almost koed by Smoking Bert Cooper... have a peek at the difference in class of opposition... Frazier operated when the division was at its all time height in terms of talent and opposition while Evander came along when the talent pool was dying away yet still struggled against 2 all timers in their mid 40s... I've great respect for Evander but Joe Frazier is in a different league as a fighter... Fraziers top 5 all time imo while Evander is about top 15... had they fought Frazier would have murdered Evander...

That sums it up nicely.

[meade95]

Fast hands aint everything and if Holifields hands are faster than joes theres not much in it... with respect to Evander to rate him over Frazier is a pure crime.... watch Frazier vs Ali 1 then watch Evander struggle against a 43 year old Larry Holmes... watch any of Fraziers peak fights and then watch Evander almost koed by Smoking Bert Cooper... have a peek at the difference in class of opposition... Frazier operated when the division was at its all time height in terms of talent and opposition while Evander came along when the talent pool was dying away yet still struggled against 2 all timers in their mid 40s... I've great respect for Evander but Joe Frazier is in a different league as a fighter... Fraziers top 5 all time imo while Evander is about top 15... had they fought Frazier would have murdered Evander...

There is no way in hell a 202-209 pound Joe Frazier would "murder" Holyfield.

Reality is pound for pound Holyfield was stronger then Joe (didn't hit as hard.....but was physically stronger). - We already had this go around once on here on this exact topic.....so don't need to do it again.

The reality is Joe beat some good fighters. But he also fought in a different era where he was knocking out 190 pounder's....the two bigger guys (who would be small today)...a 212 pound Ali and a 217 pound Foreman beat his as$.

16 of Frazier's wins came over guys who weighed LESS then 196 pounds.

Joe only fought 11 guys who weighed over 212 pounds. Of those he went 6-4-1 against. Hardly a wrecking ball once he faced guys with a little bit of size (with two of those guys being utter bums of the month types). So against even the slightest bit of competition Joe went 4-4-1 Vs guys with any size.

If all Evander ever fought were guys who weighed his size or less....He would have stayed the unstoppable force he was in the crusierweight division.

Furthermore to try and suggest a crafty old SOB like Holmes would not have given Joe problems just isn't accurate. Additionally Holyfield didn't "struggle" with Holmes per say (other then he didn't KO him!). He clealry won the fight on all cards....and had to fight through a terrible gash (thanks to a Holmes elbow) early on in the fight.

Holyfield had faster hands, better combination punching, had a better chin and both had huge hearts.

It would be a great fight....but IMO Holyfield wins a clear Dec after 12 rounds.

[silkov]

Fast hands aint everything and if Holifields hands are faster than joes theres not much in it... with respect to Evander to rate him over Frazier is a pure crime.... watch Frazier vs Ali 1 then watch Evander struggle against a 43 year old Larry Holmes... watch any of Fraziers peak fights and then watch Evander almost koed by Smoking Bert Cooper... have a peek at the difference in class of opposition... Frazier operated when the division was at its all time height in terms of talent and opposition while Evander came along when the talent pool was dying away yet still struggled against 2 all timers in their mid 40s... I've great respect for Evander but Joe Frazier is in a different league as a fighter... Fraziers top 5 all time imo while Evander is about top 15... had they fought Frazier would have murdered Evander...

There is no way in hell a 202-209 pound Joe Frazier would "murder" Holyfield.

Reality is pound for pound Holyfield was stronger then Joe (didn't hit as hard.....but was physically stronger). - We already had this go around once on here on this exact topic.....so don't need to do it again.

The reality is Joe beat some good fighters. But he also fought in a different era where he was knocking out 190 pounder's....the two bigger guys (who would be small today)...a 212 pound Ali and a 217 pound Foreman beat his as$.

16 of Frazier's wins came over guys who weighed LESS then 196 pounds.

Joe only fought 11 guys who weighed over 212 pounds. Of those he went 6-4-1 against. Hardly a wrecking ball once he faced guys with a little bit of size (with two of those guys being utter bums of the month types). So against even the slightest bit of competition Joe went 4-4-1 Vs guys with any size.

If all Evander ever fought were guys who weighed his size or less....He would have stayed the unstoppable force he was in the crusierweight division.

Furthermore to try and suggest a crafty old SOB like Holmes would not have given Joe problems just isn't accurate. Additionally Holyfield didn't "struggle" with Holmes per say (other then he didn't KO him!). He clealry won the fight on all cards....and had to fight through a terrible gash (thanks to a Holmes elbow) early on in the fight.

Holyfield had faster hands, better combination punching, had a better chin and both had huge hearts.

It would be a great fight....but IMO Holyfield wins a clear Dec after 12 rounds.

Floyd Patterson had fast hands too, would you pick him over Frazier as well?.... a peak Frazier would have demolished the 42 yearold Holmes, Frazier and Holifield are different animals, Joe was far more powerful, a natural heavyweight who used to come down from about 240 pounds for his fights, while Holifield was really a pumped up Light-heavy who to be honest made heavyweight through rather dubious modern methods!....

[meade95]

Dubious methods?? - Yeah, called working one's as$ off -

But that is neither here nor there.

Reality is a pre-1996 Holyfield would be "murdered" by no one.

As for Joe being a "real" HW.....Yawn. That is boring. Holyfield was every bit a "real HW" as well once he moved up.

As for Joe, when he faced anyone of any real size - Over 212 pounds his record was average. 6-4-1.

A prime Holyfield was physically just as strong (stronger IMO) then was Joe. Joe had the bigger punch and a great motor.....but Holyfield had the rest going his way. He'd counter Joe all night, Holy threw better combinations, inside fighting Holy's faster hands would land first and Holy could fight rough (Floyd P could not for example).

A prime Holyfield would weigh in right around the same weight as Joe (if not slightly bigger). Holy beats him a great fight.

[The Great John L]

The reality is Joe beat some good fighters.

Yeah there were a few “good” fighters in his list of victories.

...a 212 pound Ali and a 217 pound Foreman beat his as$.

I think he may have also beaten that Ali guy as well. And I recall Holy having a pretty tough time against the fat, ancient version of Foreman. Not sure he could have done much better, or even as well, against the “tiny” 217 lb version of Foreman that beat Joe.

16 of Frazier's wins came over guys who weighed LESS then 196 pounds.

Hmmm, I checked and 18 of Holy’s wins came against guys weighing less than 196 lbs.

Furthermore to try and suggest a crafty old SOB like Holmes would not have given Joe problems just isn't accurate.

It’s just his opinion, but pretty defensible. A peak Frazier beat a near peak Ali, who I’m sure was a tad bit better than the 85 year old Holmes that Holyfield fought.

It would be a great fight....but IMO Holyfield wins a clear Dec after 12 rounds.

I agree it would have been a great fight, but I’d lean towards Joe who was MUCH busier and better conditioned than the HW version of Holyfield, who usually had to take rounds off and couldn’t keep up much of a punch rate in most of his HW fights.

[silkov]

Dubious methods?? - Yeah, called working one's as$ off -

But that is neither here nor there.

Reality is a pre-1996 Holyfield would be "murdered" by no one.

As for Joe being a "real" HW.....Yawn. That is boring. Holyfield was every bit a "real HW" as well once he moved up.

As for Joe, when he faced anyone of any real size - Over 212 pounds his record was average. 6-4-1.

A prime Holyfield was physically just as strong (stronger IMO) then was Joe. Joe had the bigger punch and a great motor.....but Holyfield had the rest going his way. He'd counter Joe all night, Holy threw better combinations, inside fighting Holy's faster hands would land first and Holy could fight rough (Floyd P could not for example).

A prime Holyfield would weigh in right around the same weight as Joe (if not slightly bigger). Holy beats him a great fight.

Its not either here nor there because it is one of the reasons why Frazier would beat Holifield... Frazier was the naturally bigger and stronger fighter... Holifield would be right there in front of Frazier, defense has never been one of his main attributes, and Frazier would walk right through him... Holifield wouldnt have the power to hold Frazier off and that would be that... Evander would be lucky to go the distance.... as for Holmes, great though he was I think Larry himself would laugh if you suggested that he would have handled a peak Frazier the same way that he did Holifield at 42....

[meade95]

Dubious methods?? - Yeah, called working one's as$ off -

But that is neither here nor there.

Reality is a pre-1996 Holyfield would be "murdered" by no one.

As for Joe being a "real" HW.....Yawn. That is boring. Holyfield was every bit a "real HW" as well once he moved up.

As for Joe, when he faced anyone of any real size - Over 212 pounds his record was average. 6-4-1.

A prime Holyfield was physically just as strong (stronger IMO) then was Joe. Joe had the bigger punch and a great motor.....but Holyfield had the rest going his way. He'd counter Joe all night, Holy threw better combinations, inside fighting Holy's faster hands would land first and Holy could fight rough (Floyd P could not for example).

A prime Holyfield would weigh in right around the same weight as Joe (if not slightly bigger). Holy beats him a great fight.

Its not either here nor there because it is one of the reasons why Frazier would beat Holifield... Frazier was the naturally bigger and stronger fighter... Holifield would be right there in front of Frazier, defense has never been one of his main attributes, and Frazier would walk right through him... Holifield wouldnt have the power to hold Frazier off and that would be that... Evander would be lucky to go the distance.... as for Holmes, great though he was I think Larry himself would laugh if you suggested that he would have handled a peak Frazier the same way that he did Holifield at 42....

No body ever "walked through him". That is simply ridiculous. Which is why I can't take your position as serious. You simply have too big a dog in this fight (for whatever reasons). But the notion that anyone was going to simply "walk through Holyfield" is flat out absurd.

If 240+ pound power punching Lennox Lewis couldn't even hurt a washed up Holyfield for over 24 rounds .......If Tyson couldn't in over 14 rounds....the notion that Frazier is going to walk through a prime Holyfield is just silly (with all due respect).

And please Holyfield would have the power to hurt Frazier. And he'd have the strengh inside to move Frazier inside (without question in my mind).

Again, Frazier (for all his strength and power you insist on)...went 6-4-1 Vs guys who had any size to them at all (212 pounds or more).

If Holyfield only would have fought guys 212 pounds or less....His power would be vastly more rated by all.


And for the record. I'm sure Holmes (knowing him) would say he would have beat Frazier no matter when they fought.

[silkov]

Dubious methods?? - Yeah, called working one's as$ off -

But that is neither here nor there.

Reality is a pre-1996 Holyfield would be "murdered" by no one.

As for Joe being a "real" HW.....Yawn. That is boring. Holyfield was every bit a "real HW" as well once he moved up.

As for Joe, when he faced anyone of any real size - Over 212 pounds his record was average. 6-4-1.

A prime Holyfield was physically just as strong (stronger IMO) then was Joe. Joe had the bigger punch and a great motor.....but Holyfield had the rest going his way. He'd counter Joe all night, Holy threw better combinations, inside fighting Holy's faster hands would land first and Holy could fight rough (Floyd P could not for example).

A prime Holyfield would weigh in right around the same weight as Joe (if not slightly bigger). Holy beats him a great fight.

Its not either here nor there because it is one of the reasons why Frazier would beat Holifield... Frazier was the naturally bigger and stronger fighter... Holifield would be right there in front of Frazier, defense has never been one of his main attributes, and Frazier would walk right through him... Holifield wouldnt have the power to hold Frazier off and that would be that... Evander would be lucky to go the distance.... as for Holmes, great though he was I think Larry himself would laugh if you suggested that he would have handled a peak Frazier the same way that he did Holifield at 42....

No body ever "walked through him". That is simply ridiculous.

If 240+ pound power punching Lennox Lewis couldn't even hurt a washed up Holyfield for over 24 rounds .......If Tyson couldn't in over 14 rounds....the notion that Frazier is going to walk through a prime Holyfield is just silly (with all due respect).

And please Holyfield would have the power to hurt Frazier. And he'd have the strengh inside to move Frazier inside (without question in my mind).

Again, Frazier (for all his strength and power you insist on)...went 6-4-1 Vs guys who had any size to them at all (212 pounds or more).

If Holyfield only would have fought guys 212 pounds or less....His power would be vastly more rated by all.

Frazier fought far tougher opposition, its not the weight of the opponent but the ability... are you comparing Lewis with Foreman and Ali?... now that is ridiculous... Holifield never fought anyone remotely in that league.... jesus Holifield struggled with a 40+ Foreman....

[meade95]

Its not either here nor there because it is one of the reasons why Frazier would beat Holifield... Frazier was the naturally bigger and stronger fighter... Holifield would be right there in front of Frazier, defense has never been one of his main attributes, and Frazier would walk right through him... Holifield wouldnt have the power to hold Frazier off and that would be that... Evander would be lucky to go the distance.... as for Holmes, great though he was I think Larry himself would laugh if you suggested that he would have handled a peak Frazier the same way that he did Holifield at 42....

No body ever "walked through him". That is simply ridiculous.

If 240+ pound power punching Lennox Lewis couldn't even hurt a washed up Holyfield for over 24 rounds .......If Tyson couldn't in over 14 rounds....the notion that Frazier is going to walk through a prime Holyfield is just silly (with all due respect).

And please Holyfield would have the power to hurt Frazier. And he'd have the strengh inside to move Frazier inside (without question in my mind).

Again, Frazier (for all his strength and power you insist on)...went 6-4-1 Vs guys who had any size to them at all (212 pounds or more).

If Holyfield only would have fought guys 212 pounds or less....His power would be vastly more rated by all.

Frazier fought far tougher opposition, its not the weight of the opponent but the ability... are you comparing Lewis with Foreman and Ali?... now that is ridiculous... Holifield never fought anyone remotely in that league.... jesus Holifield struggled with a 40+ Foreman....

No, I didn't compare Lewis with Foreman or Ali.

However, Ali never faced anyone Lennox's size (with his talent) either. Not at all.

Furthermore it is silly to suggest Holyfield "struggled" with Foreman and Holmes. He won clear cut, wide margin decisions over each of them. That he didn't "destory" them is you moving the goal posts. That was not Holyfield's style.

Additionally Foreman in many aspects was a different fighter at his 240 pound version then he was at his 217-222 pound younger version. He himself, admits this.

As for competition. Holyfield was facing championship caliber fighters since his 11th pro fight when he won a world title.

The reality is both are all-time greats. But the notion that Frazier would walk through Holyfield is simply silly. No 208 pound fighter was going to walk through Holyfield.

If you can't understand that basic reality no need to keep this going further. You simply refuse to be intellectually honest on the subject and that makes this go from a solid / nice back and forth of ideas......to simply someone who wants to argue and do so foolishly.

Lastly, if Holyfield only fought guys under 210 his power would look immense as well.

Best regards,

[dr_devious]

Frazier should rank higher in the all-time ratings and would win head to head by TKO or KO in the mid to late rounds or on points. I'd put Frazier at no. 8 of all time and Evander no. 11 or 12ish

[dempseyfire]

No body ever "walked through him". That is simply ridiculous.

If 240+ pound power punching Lennox Lewis couldn't even hurt a washed up Holyfield for over 24 rounds .......If Tyson couldn't in over 14 rounds....the notion that Frazier is going to walk through a prime Holyfield is just silly (with all due respect).

And please Holyfield would have the power to hurt Frazier. And he'd have the strengh inside to move Frazier inside (without question in my mind).

Again, Frazier (for all his strength and power you insist on)...went 6-4-1 Vs guys who had any size to them at all (212 pounds or more).

If Holyfield only would have fought guys 212 pounds or less....His power would be vastly more rated by all.

Frazier fought far tougher opposition, its not the weight of the opponent but the ability... are you comparing Lewis with Foreman and Ali?... now that is ridiculous... Holifield never fought anyone remotely in that league.... jesus Holifield struggled with a 40+ Foreman....

No, I didn't compare Lewis with Foreman or Ali.

However, Ali never faced anyone Lennox's size (with his talent) either. Not at all.

Furthermore it is silly to suggest Holyfield "struggled" with Foreman and Holmes. He won clear cut, wide margin decisions over each of them. That he didn't "destory" them is you moving the goal posts. That was not Holyfield's style.

Additionally Foreman in many aspects was a different fighter at his 240 pound version then he was at his 217-222 pound younger version. He himself, admits this.

As for competition. Holyfield was facing championship caliber fighters since his 11th pro fight when he won a world title.

The reality is both are all-time greats. But the notion that Frazier would walk through Holyfield is simply silly. No 208 pound fighter was going to walk through Holyfield.

If you can't understand that basic reality no need to keep this going further. You simply refuse to be intellectually honest on the subject and that makes this go from a solid / nice back and forth of ideas......to simply someone who wants to argue and do so foolishly.

Lastly, if Holyfield only fought guys under 210 his power would look immense as well.

Best regards,

This picking at weights is ridiculous. Just b/c Quarry and Ellis weighed 197 as opposed to 210 (a paltry 13 lb weight differential) this makes them easier to knockout? Weight has nothing to do with the durability of your chin . . .just ask Michael Grant. Your record of Joe vs "bigger" fighters is mute b/c those 4 losses are against the same 2 men, two VERY close fights with Ali, and two losses to Foreman, and two of those when Frazier was far past his prime. I don't see anyone bringing up Holyfield's embarassing loss to Chris Byrd, an even smaller blown up HW than Evander.

Frazier's performances vs Mathis, Chuvalo, and Bugner (all guys who would've given Evander TONS of problems) show clearly he could handle the bigger HWs of today, even though for the most part Evander was fighting HEAVIER opponents and not BIGGER opponents. For example, Mercer was the same size as Chuvalo but almost always fought overweight.

I don't see Frazier "walking through Evander" . . . I see it being a tough fight for both men, but if Evander was greatly troubled by the pressure of Foreman, Mercer, Dokes (nevermind a coked out Bert Cooper), all guys who petered out in the later rounds due to age or lack of conditioning, he will not last vs a supremely conditioned machine like Frazier, who only got stronger as the fight progressed.

[The Great John L]

As for competition. Holyfield was facing championship caliber fighters since his 11th pro fight when he won a world title.

Yes, Holyfield fought some tough guys and won a 190 lb belt in his 11th fight. Let’s see, Frazier fought world ranked 205 lb Oscar Bonavena in his 12th fight. Of course, it was a tough fight, but Joe did show great heart and conditioning in surviving 2 early KD’s against the powerful Ringo.

[Grimm]

Floyd Patterson had fast hands too, would you pick him over Frazier as well?.... a peak Frazier would have demolished the 42 yearold Holmes, Frazier and Holifield are different animals, Joe was far more powerful, a natural heavyweight who used to come down from about 240 pounds for his fights, while Holifield was really a pumped up Light-heavy who to be honest made heavyweight through rather dubious modern methods!....

Ok here I have to disagree.

Holyfield was more of a chopped down heavy than a blown up lightheavyweight. He had to go through hell to get down to 190 and damn near died of dehydration after that Qawi fight.

With out all of the weight draining and shit I would have to say Holyfield was a tad bit bigger than Frazier.

And I have no idea where you got that Frazier used to come down from 240, I've read his whole book and I don't recall him ever mentioning this, could you elaborate on this please?

[The Great John L]

And I have no idea where you got that Frazier used to come down from 240, I've read his whole book and I don't recall him ever mentioning this, could you elaborate on this please?

Joe could have been 240 when he was younger, as I seem to remember that he had weight problem as a teenager. Anybody else remember this?

Either way, I don't think he would have been a very solid 240 at any time during his career.

[walshb]

Joe Frazier would have steamrolled Evander over 15 rds. Too relentless, fit, busy and strong for Evander to keep him off. It takes a huge puncher to get Joe's respect. Evander hadn't got enough to outwork him and Evander's punch wasn't heavy enough to force Frazier back. Frazier at his peak was a ball of energy. Too damn rough and tough for Evander...clear UD. It's not like Evander can do an Ali and dance all night. Guys that stand in front and trade with Frazier, apart from a Foreman are always going to lose!!