Iron Mike on the way up

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 18 Aug 2006, 07:04

This was one of his early wins that really impressed me at the time.
He was matched with the dangerous & unpredictable Reggie Gross ( now serving life for three murders ) a puncher who'd just KO'd Bert Cooper.

Check the video - Gross opens up on Tyson and tries to take his head off, and you can see the way an early Tyson uses the D'Amato defence so well, staying in range and firing back with deadly hooks himself. Terrific stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Z9FIwT7BE

The Reggie Gross story -

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/ ... columnists

JimJim · Post by **JimJim** » 18 Aug 2006, 07:16

Wow, its been a long time since I saw that fight. Gross did surprisingly well for as long as it lasted. I always thought it was a shame that Tyson never faced Bert Cooper. Cooper was as erratic as they come but when he was in the mood for a rumble, he recorded some good wins and was involved in some tremendous contests.

Tyson's ability to remain composed under pressure, and come back with his own well delivered punches, is impressive in this clip. A lot of fighters can forget the gameplan when under pressure, understandably so, yet Tyson ducked and weaved and came back with an absolute bomb of a punch.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Aug 2006, 07:22

Yep, Mike was a real joy to watch back then, beautiful footwork, cutting off the ring whilst always driving forward. Working on the inside, using his excellent short jab and constant bobbing and weaving, a very hard guy to hit cleanly, and very hard to stay away from.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 18 Aug 2006, 07:27

Tyson is out of fashion - understandably so, because he lost to the great fighters he faced (Holyfield & Lewis) and more importantly, hasn't been great since 1988. But yes, stylistically, he was perfect for a stocky power puncher. He and Chavez got it just right in terms of head movement, cutting off the corners, & nailing the opponent with well picked power shots.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 18 Aug 2006, 07:45

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yep, Mike was a real joy to watch back then, beautiful footwork, cutting off the ring whilst always driving forward. Working on the inside, using his excellent short jab and constant bobbing and weaving, a very hard guy to hit cleanly, and very hard to stay away from.

Yeah, had it all at that time, except discipline.

Fast, immensly strong, good chin, huge power in both hands good defence and skills. Inside fighting wasnt as good as it could have been.

What a waste

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 18 Aug 2006, 08:17

KO Artist wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yep, Mike was a real joy to watch back then, beautiful footwork, cutting off the ring whilst always driving forward. Working on the inside, using his excellent short jab and constant bobbing and weaving, a very hard guy to hit cleanly, and very hard to stay away from.
Yeah, had it all at that time, except discipline.

Fast, immensly strong, good chin, huge power in both hands good defence and skills. Inside fighting wasnt as good as it could have been.

What a waste

when you think about it, defending a title 7 times & unifying a division is no small feat, Especially for a squat slugger, as they do not last particularly long anyhow. If he had been more disciplined, I doubt he would've been excellent for long in the 1990s

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 18 Aug 2006, 10:28

Heavyweight boxing is just as in need of an Iron Mike now as it was back then in the mid-eighties. In fact more so I would say because at least we had an aging Larry Holmes still around and Spinks had moved up....

I might have criticised Tyson in the past but he gave Heavyweight boxing such a shot in the arm, I often wonder if Holyfield & Lennox would have been as good as they were if Tyson hadn't set the standards so high when he hit the scene....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Aug 2006, 10:48

KO Artist wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yep, Mike was a real joy to watch back then, beautiful footwork, cutting off the ring whilst always driving forward. Working on the inside, using his excellent short jab and constant bobbing and weaving, a very hard guy to hit cleanly, and very hard to stay away from.
Yeah, had it all at that time, except discipline.

Fast, immensly strong, good chin, huge power in both hands good defence and skills. Inside fighting wasnt as good as it could have been.

What a waste

Inside work was his weak suit, but as you can see on that clip, he wasn't as bad as all that. His weakness was when someone held on the inside, he didn't know how to work his way out of it, and liked to have his hands free. His body shots really were a thing of beauty though.

Physically, Tyson was perhaps the perfect heavyweight, naturally very strong and immensely fast, an incredible natural athlete, although cus D'amato's 'system' was quite mechanical, it was very effective when allied to someone with Tyson's gifts. He was like Floyd Patterson (another immensely hard hitting fight with great speed), but so much more physically robust.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 18 Aug 2006, 12:28

For his size Riddick Bowe was a great inside boxer, Tyson was good on the inside, but you could tie him up, but that had alot to do with his hieght i feel, where he was shorter than most of his opponents and on the inside he used to lean in, easy for a bigger guy to tie him up.

Have to say, for all his future short comings, Tyson was probably the most exciting heavyweight on the way up in my lifetime. which is 35 years

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 18 Aug 2006, 12:35

Holyfield was better. Tyson is one of the most overrated fighters ever. Survive the early rounds and he was nothing.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 18 Aug 2006, 12:43

bennie wrote:Holyfield was better. Tyson is one of the most overrated fighters ever. Survive the early rounds and he was nothing.

Yea just watch the Tucker/Ruddock/Smith fights he was nothing in those 12round fights

Its actually interesting that Tyson was so good (not just because he hit hard but because he was fast, threw combos, had a great defense and was accurate with great footwork), he rarely went past the middle rounds, so he never learnt the art of 12 round war/fight which was his undoing against Holyfield.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 18 Aug 2006, 12:45

Goz wrote:I might have criticised Tyson in the past but he gave Heavyweight boxing such a shot in the arm, I often wonder if Holyfield & Lennox would have been as good as they were if Tyson hadn't set the standards so high when he hit the scene....

Interesting they may have been as good but surely it pushed them to get to Mikes level of technical excellence.

People also seem to forget with Tyson, he lost 4years of his prime, and was nothing more than a 3round fighter post prison, without his previous standard of defense, combinations or stamina. Remember he hadn't been past the 3rd pre-Holyfield after prison. If Holy/Lewis had been through the same circumstances they would have likely been pretty average fighters.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 18 Aug 2006, 13:06

bennie wrote:Holyfield was better. Tyson is one of the most overrated fighters ever. Survive the early rounds and he was nothing.

Just one question, at what point did you say Tyson was overrated?
Was it when he won the heavyweight title? because if it was then you are the shrewdest boxing expert i know, Nobody said he was overrated in his title win or in the defenses , until Douglas beat him, you must have won shitloads on that fight, obviously knowing he was overrated

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Aug 2006, 14:37

bennie wrote:Holyfield was better. Tyson is one of the most overrated fighters ever. Survive the early rounds and he was nothing.

That's a bit of an oversimplification Bennie me old son. Tyson was hardly losing a single round of fights on the rare occasions he was extended the distance.

The biggest single knock on Tyson is that his prime was very brief. Whilst I don't rate him very highly as a champion as he had poor quality of opposition with an out of shape Holmes, and a Spinks with one foot in retirement as his best wins, in his prime he was an awesome fighting machine.

Against Douglas even though he was being outfought and not fighting a good fight, he still found a punch which should in reality have ended the fight. I've watched that fight several times, and without the long count, there is no way on God's green earth Douglas makes it off the canvas, he was absolutely fucked, and barely scraped himself aloft at 9 1/2.

By the time Holyfield got him, Tyson did not have the same confidence in himself, nor was he training as hard, he had all but abandoned the style Cus taught him, relying on intensity and punch power to win fights. This was good enough against his post Douglas opponents, but despite Holyfield already being in decline, it wasn't enough against someone as battle hardened and technically good as Evander. Evander was able to meet Tyson's fire early on, smother his work, maul and hold and tie him up and most importantly earn his respect. Tyson wasn't prepared for that kind of fight, and no longer had the stamina or the technique to find a way through.

I've always believed that had Holyfield got Tyson first time around, he would have lived to regret it. I don't think he could have contained Tyson long enough to win. Tyson wouldn't have blown out after a few rounds, he would have kept on coming and got to Evander in the middle to late rounds. It might have been a points win, but Tyson would have prevailed.

Similarly, the pre McCall Lewis woudl have been eaten up, Lewis was too lazy with the jab, and Tyson would have been able to get under that jab early in the fight and take big len out. Tyson's and Lewis' peaks didn't really overlap. Lewis was a late bloomer, whilst Tyson was at his best before the age of 25, after that he was trading on his physical gifts and the remnants of his technique which included fantastic punching technique.

The one fight I would have loved to have seen was Tyson and Bowe going at it. I always thought had the right tools to win against even a peak Tyson. Bowe had a great chin early in his career, could really put the shots together, and most importantly hit hard and could fight brilliantly on the inside.

Tyson definetly has his flaws and could be frustrated, but I honestly believe few fighters in history could have gotten through then early part of the fight intact and prevailed.

Holyfield is a better champion than Tyson (arguably) his peak was that much longer, he fought a better level of opposition, and even past his prime was holding his own agaisnt Lennox who was right at his peak.

Tyson's career was a brief flame which burned with incredible intensity, and then a feint spark which managed to stay alight way past the point where it should have burnt out. Post Douglas he was never the same fighter again, and he lost his appetite for the sport in jail I think. I think after that he just wanted to make money and fighting was all he knew how to do. When he couldn't blast Holyfield out of there, there was no plan B and no physical training to back it up, against Lewis he just trudged to his demise like a man walking slump shouldered to the gallows.

Tyson became overrated because people began thinking he was invincible despite being exposed by Douglas and then Evander, people couldn't see that the Tyson of old was gone. However, on his night, Tyson would have destroyed a lot of fighters held in very high esteem indeed.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 18 Aug 2006, 15:26

When I think of Tyson in his short prime, coming at fighters non stop, ducking & weaving throwing absolutely TNT laden, blindingly quick punches - and barely blinking when taking any bombs that happen to come his way - it's hard to think of too many heavyweights who could've withstood him ( while trying to win that is, not just tying him up and going the distance )

The truly greats yes, like Holyfield proved: but it's hardly a fault losing to someone like Holy, who approaches God like status in boxing terms. Though they were both past it when they met...

And it's not just the fans and press who were in awe of Tyson's abilities - just take a look, in disbelief, at the fear he induced in legendry all time greats like Holmes and Spinks - who else could have done that?

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 18 Aug 2006, 15:34

MightyWarrior wrote:When I think of Tyson in his short prime, coming at fighters non stop, ducking & weaving throwing absolutely TNT laden, blindingly quick punches - and barely blinking when taking any bombs that happen to come his way - it's hard to think of too many heavyweights who could've withstood him ( while trying to win that is, not just tying him up and going the distance )

The truly greats yes, like Holyfield proved: but it's hardly a fault losing to someone like Holy, who approaches God like status in boxing terms. Though they were both past it when they met...

And it's not just the fans and press who were in awe of Tyson's abilities - just take a look, in disbelief, at the fear he induced in legendry all time greats like Holmes and Spinks - who else could have done that?

Holmes was old and Spinks came back purely for the money... try taking off the rose tinted specs.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 18 Aug 2006, 15:35

MightyWarrior wrote:When I think of Tyson in his short prime, coming at fighters non stop, ducking & weaving throwing absolutely TNT laden, blindingly quick punches - and barely blinking when taking any bombs that happen to come his way - it's hard to think of too many heavyweights who could've withstood him ( while trying to win that is, not just tying him up and going the distance )

The truly greats yes, like Holyfield proved: but it's hardly a fault losing to someone like Holy, who approaches God like status in boxing terms. Though they were both past it when they met...

And it's not just the fans and press who were in awe of Tyson's abilities - just take a look, in disbelief, at the fear he induced in legendry all time greats like Holmes and Spinks - who else could have done that?

Not to mention his very impressive wins over Carl Williams and Alex Stewart. Awesome.

The thing with (peak)Tyson was if he missed with the left hook, you knew there was a booming right to the belly, followed by a crashing right uppercut coming at blinding speed.

Often, his opponents couldnt even look above the papapet, let alone fire back.

On skill, speed and power alone would have been a first round favourite against every HW in history. (in his brief prime)

This, coupled with the fact the he won the title at 20, makes him deserving of a top 10 place, in my book.

As for Bowe, a modern, bigger, version of Joe Louis. Could have been no1 of all time, but had the wrong kind of hunger. Although peak versus peak, I'd pick him to outpoint Tyson and KO Lewis. Although Bowe was stationery at times and that could be a danger for him, particularly against Tyson.

The one I would have liked the 86 Tyson to fight was Tim Witherspoon, but King was having none of it. Bonecrusher didnt help either.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 18 Aug 2006, 15:45

Yeah I always wanted to see him fight Witherspoon, or Dokes even, but they were both out in the cold.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:13

It's considered sacrileigious, but I always thought that Joe Frazier would have been made for Mike Tyson. Frazier was always a slow starter, and wasn't exactly the hardest to hit, he couldn't fight at range, and would have been facing a quicker, physically stronger and harder hitting version of himself, albeit without quite the same intensity or slow burning mean streak. Tyson would have come straight out of the blocks and Joe would have really had to wake up fast. Frazier didn't face that many big punchers in his career, and when he met Foreman, we saw what a really big puncher could do to him if they leapt on top of him.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:31

Well if you was to ask some random guy off the street who is the best HW of all time, chances are they will say Ali or Tyson, so in that sense I guess he is over rated..

Still though, on his day he had the abilty to give any great HW a damn hard fight and brought tons of excitement to the 80's & 90's.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:40

Taki... wrote: Holmes was old and Spinks came back purely for the money... try taking off the rose tinted specs.

Black tinted specs you mean.

And I'm not talking about the results. Like everyone else I didn't give either a chance v Tyson at the time. But the absolute fear of god he put in two legendy seen-it-all-before warriors like that - why was that?

Holmes said it was the only time in his pro career when he almost turned and ran on his way to the ring. Half joking sure, but you know what he meant. Who else could make even a comebacking Larry Holmes think like that? Liston maybe? Foreman? Not many...

And it was always about the money with Spinks, and winning at all costs too. Spinks had overcome the odds every time asked of him, all his career, but he suddenyl found himself understanding the big difference between undrated, and overrated.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:45

jamesmcdonnell wrote:It's considered sacrileigious, but I always thought that Joe Frazier would have been made for Mike Tyson. Frazier was always a slow starter, and wasn't exactly the hardest to hit, he couldn't fight at range, and would have been facing a quicker, physically stronger and harder hitting version of himself, albeit without quite the same intensity or slow burning mean streak. Tyson would have come straight out of the blocks and Joe would have really had to wake up fast. Frazier didn't face that many big punchers in his career, and when he met Foreman, we saw what a really big puncher could do to him if they leapt on top of him.

Yes good chance he'd have got to Joe early, as Joe was much more vunerable to big punches than Tyson was. A good single punch could put him in trouble, while it'd take 5,6,7 flush shots to really trouble Mike. He took some murderous shots off Ruddock..

Of course if Frazier had survived the early blitz, he'd be favorite to grind Tyson down. Joe, like Holyfield, had an unbeatable will and an edge over Mike there defintely.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 18 Aug 2006, 17:22

MightyWarrior wrote:
Taki... wrote: Holmes was old and Spinks came back purely for the money... try taking off the rose tinted specs.
Black tinted specs you mean.

And I'm not talking about the results. Like everyone else I didn't give either a chance v Tyson at the time. But the absolute fear of god he put in two legendy seen-it-all-before warriors like that - why was that?

Holmes said it was the only time in his pro career when he almost turned and ran on his way to the ring. Half joking sure, but you know what he meant. Who else could make even a comebacking Larry Holmes think like that? Liston maybe? Foreman? Not many...

And it was always about the money with Spinks, and winning at all costs too. Spinks had overcome the odds every time asked of him, all his career, but he suddenyl found himself understanding the big difference between undrated, and overrated.

In Larry's book he recall's thinking on his way to the ring, "Hey, Don, take the $3m back, I'll fight him next week."

Wheras Spinks remarked "Fear was knocking on my door, big time"

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 18 Aug 2006, 17:40

No, no, no, no, no, no, no... Take away all Tyson's quick wins and what are you left with: an arm weary, jabless, often clueless heavyweight.
It never ceases to amaze me how people are taken in by his spectacular wins over Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs, little Spinks and old Larry. Jesus, it turns my stomach just thinking about those guys: flakes, wackos, rapists, cokeheads, scared...
Larry was plain greedy.
Tyson intimidated, bullied and cleaned up in a truly pathetic era for heavyweight boxing. Sure, he was good in the early rounds, but he failed to see off a sloppy Smith, a half-hearted Tucker, a mentally-fragile Douglas, and all of a sudden the same shower of shit was making him look awful, loading up and missing as he did.
Right up to his loss to Kevin McBride, Tyson was good for a few rounds only. And fighting the very worst.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Aug 2006, 18:13

Bonecrusher held like an amorous octopus all night long, he should really have been DQ'd in there, he landed like what, 3 or 4 meaningful shots the whole night, you cannot really blame Tyson for that one. Smith was a big powerful man, imagine trying to get free from those massive arms wrapped round you. Tyson was frustrated and looked bad, but it's no different to Akinwande against Lewis except Akinwande was Dq'd.

Marciano and Louis also competed in poor eras for heavyweights, most eras were bad for heavyweights, admittedly there was a lot of substance abuse amongst the 80's era heavies, a lot of talent there, but all ill disciplined. However, by and large Tyson absolutely destroyed what was put in front of him, and you cannot ask for more than that.

Tyson used to have a good jab early in his career, a short choppy range finder which was the precursor to the blistering thunderous combination

Douglas fought the fight of his life that night, under circumstances which conspired to make him fight as if his Tyson was the ultimate enemy in there, and he rained countless shots on Tyson. Mike sure took a hell of a lot of shots that night, mainly because he was no longer moving the head. Douglas reverted to type for his next fight turning up to lose against Holyfield.

Had douglas turned up in the same mental and physical shape against Holyfield, I have no doubt he would have given Evander an allmighty tussle. You cannot compare the guy who turned up for Holy with the guy who fought Tyson

Every heavyweight champ has had their bad nights and their boogieman opponents. Ali struggled with Doug Jones, and Norton, a bloody good fighter no doubt, was his real bugbear. Hell Cooper put him on his ass. For every fighter there's a style which gives them problems, and mike struggled with guys who were big and mobile or who could physically engage him and make him have to wade through them.