Ali-Norton I Analysis

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 18 Aug 2006, 15:52

Finally saw this fight for the first time on OLN last night (they're re-running it over the next week or two if you want to see it). Being relatively new to the Forum, I just wanted to give some thoughts and get some feedback.

I scored the fight 6-5-1 Norton, but could just as easily have had it 6-4-2, 7-4 Norton or 6-6. Tought fight to score as Norton's winning rounds were fairly convincing (2,4,5,7,9,12), whereas IMO 1,3,6 could have been even or Ali (I honestly didn't see Norton winning these rounds, but could believe it if they were scored for him). All in all, a great fight to watch, especially seeing Ali struggle in trying to figure out Norton's awkward style. And it was one of those fights that, though tough to score, seemed like Norton won b/c overall he seemed like the winning fighter.

Now, I haven't seen the rematch, but will be seeing it soon (thanks to evndrbsn)... but from what I saw in this one, Ali's lack of conditioning and exxtra weight really hurt him in this one. I know he came in the rematch at 212, which to me was his prime weight after the exile. When he danced and moved, Norton couldn't really touch him (other than a shot here or there). But at 221, Ali couldn't sustain the movement, and Norton took full advantage. Plus, his jab was excellent, and was the first time I saw Ali (pre-1976) outjabbed overall.

I really respect everyone's opinions on here from what I've read, so thoughts are more than welcome!

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:10

I haven't seen the fight in awhile but do remember it was a pretty dominating performance by Norton. Ali didn't win more than 4 rounds.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:16

Did you develop an opinion as to when his jaw was broken?

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:22

BoxBuzz wrote:Did you develop an opinion as to when his jaw was broken?

You know, I was trying to find it, but I just couldn't tell. I thought maybe in round 2 as they supposedly say, because he became so tentative - almost seemed afraid to throw - in rounds 4 and 5. And he danced all of Round 3. But I figured it had to be in 2, 4 or 5, as those were really the dominant Norton rounds. But I could believe Ken's take that it happened in the 12th too. What do you think?

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 18 Aug 2006, 17:31

This fight was as hard to score as the two that followed. I think Ali-Norton I, II, and III could have gone either way and there wouldn't have been much complaint. Some people still argue about Norton getting jobbed in the third fight, but there are plenty of people that feel Ali pulled it out after the eighth round.

Its hard to tell what shot broke Ali's jaw, but I have to lean towards it happening in the 2nd round like Dundee says since he was the one that supposedly wanted to stop the fight. Norton landed some really good left hooks throughout the fight, but I don't think he would know better than Ali as to which shot broke his jaw.

Was that Bob Papa doing the commentary on this fight? I had to turn it off, I couldn't stand it. I hope that isn't a trend that is going to repeat itself in each and every classic fight OLN (soon to be Versus) shows. I didn't catch the Ali-Bonavena replay by OLN, did Bob do the commentary on that one too?

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 18 Aug 2006, 18:08

i have all three on tape and i think all three fights are good.
i scored the rematch for Ali, and the third for norton.
i might watch them again today and post my scores

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 18 Aug 2006, 18:13

I had Norton ahead 6-5 going into the final round, but he clearly won the 12th making it 7-5 on my card.

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 18 Aug 2006, 18:44

evndrbsn wrote:This fight was as hard to score as the two that followed. I think Ali-Norton I, II, and III could have gone either way and there wouldn't have been much complaint. Some people still argue about Norton getting jobbed in the third fight, but there are plenty of people that feel Ali pulled it out after the eighth round.

Its hard to tell what shot broke Ali's jaw, but I have to lean towards it happening in the 2nd round like Dundee says since he was the one that supposedly wanted to stop the fight. Norton landed some really good left hooks throughout the fight, but I don't think he would know better than Ali as to which shot broke his jaw.

Was that Bob Papa doing the commentary on this fight? I had to turn it off, I couldn't stand it. I hope that isn't a trend that is going to repeat itself in each and every classic fight OLN (soon to be Versus) shows. I didn't catch the Ali-Bonavena replay by OLN, did Bob do the commentary on that one too?

No, actually Cosell was the commentator for Ali-Bonavena. He expressed his disappointment throughout about Ali's diminished skills... which made it sound like he was losing, which he clearly was not. His timing and sharpness were just way off. Listening to Papa was tough, I agree. He was so pro-Norton it was kind of sickening. I try to watch Ali fights with the sound off because he inspires such strong opinions.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 18 Aug 2006, 18:51

Well as legacy's go it is to Ali's credit if he can convince us it was in the second round and it is to Norton's credit if he can convince us it wasn't until much later.

I have been over that fight pretty carefully years ago and I came to the conclusion it was very early on. Their is an interaction in the second round that looks like it's the culprit and it seems to get Ali's attention....so that's my guess.

Also carefully watch the way Ali moves his head and vary's his defense routines he's subtly protecting his head a slightly different manner than what is typical for him.

I think Ali is probably shooting us straight as to the time the jawbreaker landed. Which should impress those of us who are not jaded as to just how much iron this guy had in him. He was cut from a different cloth than most.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 19 Aug 2006, 01:11

..jaw probably broken sixth round or after....maybe as late as the tenth. haven't watched it in years...see no reason to watch it again.

johnny bratton went the last five rounds of his fifteen round decsion loss to gavilan with a broken jaw and one broken hand. took a one sided battering. didn't quit. had a list one time with guys who fought on with a broken jaw. haven't seen it in years and don't intend to look for it....but i saw gavilan/bratton a few years ago and that refreshed my memory on that one. plus i recall an interview with bratton not long after that fight.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 19 Aug 2006, 01:18

..oops..forgot to add....if ali could go ten rounds or nearly that many against norton with a broken jaw then why didn't he dominate norton when he jaw was okay.....which he never did....in their subsequent fights?

i am not necessarily saying norton won those fights...just pointing out they were close and ali never did beat him by a clear margin...if he did indeed beat him at all.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 19 Aug 2006, 01:23

...aha..one more...liston finished his decision loss to marty marshall despite having a broken jaw sometime during the fight. ('tis said he was so amused by marshall's style that he laughed and marty clocked him when sonny's mouth was open during the merriment. may or not be true, but easily as credible as the nonsense about ali's second round jaw injury.)

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 19 Aug 2006, 10:29

Decagon wrote:You'd have to be really, really pro-Ali to give him six of those 12 rounds. I thought he won the rematch, though.

Agree for the most part... I think definitely four, I could see five, but six is a bit of a stretch. Norton definitely won IMO, but it was tough to score.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 19 Aug 2006, 10:36

The 2nd Norton fight really showed the difference between the 70s and the 60s Ali... Ali was in really top shape... perhaps the best shape he'd been in since the late 60s... certainly the best since Frazier 1 and he outboxed Norton and danced nonstop for the first 6 rounds, but then he tired and spent about rounds 7 to 11 flat footed and having to slug it out and then came back moving again in the 12th and final round... definately Ali's fight but showed that even in top shape he just didnt have the stamina in his legs anymore...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Aug 2006, 12:15

That Style thing plays big here, Norton's style gave him more fits than Joe Frazier or George Foreman and yet Norton would never fare well (according to popular opinion and of course his one fight with Foreman) with George or Joe....sort of a Keys and Locks issue.

Does anyone think that Norton could have pulled off a win with Ali in his prime? I think it would be competitive but a bit more one sided in favor of Ali.

Of course a prime and motivated Norton would have demolished a fighter like say.... Ezzard Charles in a round or two.

Jaclem.....I'm only kidding. But while we are on the subject would Norton have been as difficult a nut to crack for Ezzard's Style?

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Aug 2006, 12:55

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Aug 2006, 13:42

DaveV17 wrote:BoxBuzz asked:
"Does anyone think that Norton could have pulled off a win with Ali in his prime? I think it would be competitive but a bit more one sided in favor of Ali. "

and if the judging was honest, Ali might never win a fight with Norton.

All close matches are conspiracies due to judges having been paid off...it's a proven fact........
http://grimsb.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/truth.jpg

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Aug 2006, 14:01

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Aug 2006, 14:04

Dave.....the Nortons and the Young fight I'll go so far as to agree they were close though I thought the judges got it right.

Frazier Ali II?? Please.....have you actually viewed this one? It was a walk away for Ali. I've never heard the most adamant Frazier fan question this one. But there's always a first time....

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 19 Aug 2006, 14:17

The truth is that Ali won some close fights by impressing the judges in the final rounds of some of his latter fights... thats what boxers are supposed to do and what made him a great champion... Young and Norton both lost to him in title fights because they just didnt do enougth to beat the champ... simple as that...

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 19 Aug 2006, 16:59

True, he got the nod on some close decisions, but mainly after Manila (when he was washed up IMO). Ali-Frazier II was not close IMO - you'd be hard pressed to give Frazier more than 4 rounds unless you were a fan. Hell, I was a fan, and I still couldn't. Haven't seen Norton II yet, but will soon, and will give my thoughts. The Jones fight was close, but I did think he narrowly won, but a draw could have been fitting.

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 19 Aug 2006, 17:10

Decagon wrote:I scored Norton II about a year ago, and had Ali up 7-5.

Can't wait to see it... from what I've heard, it really was a good fight to watch.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 19 Aug 2006, 18:26

Decagon wrote:I disagree. To beat the champion, all you have to do is knock him out, or win more points/rounds than he does. I think that Young and Norton both did that. How Ali does in the 14th round should have NOTHING to do with how rounds 1-13 are scored.

I'm not saying t was the only round Ali won... Ali vs Norton 3 was close like their first two fights and Ali won the fight in the last rounds... as for the Young fight Jimmy was too negative and that cost him the fight... neither Norton nor Young did enough imo... neither fight was a robbery...

sweetsci · Post by **sweetsci** » 19 Aug 2006, 21:28

evndrbsn wrote:
Was that Bob Papa doing the commentary on this fight? I had to turn it off, I couldn't stand it. I hope that isn't a trend that is going to repeat itself in each and every classic fight OLN (soon to be Versus) shows. I didn't catch the Ali-Bonavena replay by OLN, did Bob do the commentary on that one too?

They aren't using non-original commentary, are they? I really hate that. Hearing the orignal commentary and the surprise as events transpire really adds to the enjoyment of watching old fights.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 20 Aug 2006, 14:18

sweetsci wrote:
evndrbsn wrote:
Was that Bob Papa doing the commentary on this fight? I had to turn it off, I couldn't stand it. I hope that isn't a trend that is going to repeat itself in each and every classic fight OLN (soon to be Versus) shows. I didn't catch the Ali-Bonavena replay by OLN, did Bob do the commentary on that one too?
They aren't using non-original commentary, are they? I really hate that. Hearing the orignal commentary and the surprise as events transpire really adds to the enjoyment of watching old fights.

That's how I feel about the original commentary. It is great hearing the original surprise. I hate it when networks make new commentary for an old fight and try to fake the surprise. On Roy Jones Greatest Hits DVD, thats what the producers felt they should go with and it was horrible. Same with the OLN rebroadcasts, at least thats what it sounded like to me.