Iron Mike on the way up

[stujones]

Tyson punished Tyrell Biggs for 7 rounds, gradually giving Biggs more and more pain as the fight went on.... That was Tyson at his best and he showed that if the fighter was strong enough to take his punches and not trying to just survive (as Bonecrusher and Tucker did) then he had the stamina to do it.

We will never REALLY know if Tyson had the stamina/mental fortitute to win in a tough fight. He was CLEARLY was never the same fighter after Rooney left the camp and only 3 meaningful fights went more than halfway in the Rooney era - Smith, Tucker and Biggs. Two of these were as about as offensively minded as Brian Neilson when Tyson faced him when well past it.

Comparison are often drawn between Tyson and Liston, the major similarity though is for (differing reasons) they very short stay as the Heavyweight champion. Sonny is always regarded as one of THE heavyweight greats and I'm sure most of the more knowledgable historians would laugh of the suggestion that Tyson was better than him - but then John Ruiz had a more successful championship career than Liston - who's reign as champion lasted 20 boxing minutes. (2 vs Patterson, 18 vs Clay).

It seems almost fashionable to say Tyson was overated and fought in a terrible era, but as James said was it really much worse than Louis', Marciano's and a few other great champions era. Tyson beat EVERYBODY in his era except Tim Witherspoon and of course James Douglas.

Lets not forget "Greedy" "Past it" Holmes went ON to score close decision losses in two world title attempts (including a majority decision vs McCall) and beat the then reigning WBO champion Mercer, handily. This was all when Holyfield was 5-7 years OLDER than when he faced Tyson.

[Autobarn]

One thing about a peak Tyson, he was extremely efficient at cutting down the ring & chopping down the opponent. I think his best showing was the night he tortured Tyrell Biggs - a big, mobile (if light hitting and amateurish) boxer. Not an easy man to take down.

If all the guys he fought were affected in some way by high living etc, well then look at when Holmes fought this generation of men. Tyson got them when they were lazy or substance abusing. Holmes got them when they were novices (don't want to take the comparison too far, as Holmes had real longevity). So let's give Tyson credit for beating up some talented experienced men. & let's give Holmes credit for beating young fresh guys - if we're going to be balanced.

Also, look what Tyson did to Tubbs. & look what Tubbs did to Bowe. Beating Tubbs doesn't exactly count for zero.

I've been sick and tired of Tyson for a long long time. But I acknowledge how good he was in his day.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Tyson punished Tyrell Biggs for 7 rounds, gradually giving Biggs more and more pain as the fight went on.... That was Tyson at his best and he showed that if the fighter was strong enough to take his punches and not trying to just survive (as Bonecrusher and Tucker did) then he had the stamina to do it.

We will never REALLY know if Tyson had the stamina/mental fortitute to win in a tough fight. He was CLEARLY was never the same fighter after Rooney left the camp and only 3 meaningful fights went more than halfway in the Rooney era - Smith, Tucker and Biggs. Two of these were as about as offensively minded as Brian Neilson when Tyson faced him when well past it.

Comparison are often drawn between Tyson and Liston, the major similarity though is for (differing reasons) they very short stay as the Heavyweight champion. Sonny is always regarded as one of THE heavyweight greats and I'm sure most of the more knowledgable historians would laugh of the suggestion that Tyson was better than him - but then John Ruiz had a more successful championship career than Liston - who's reign as champion lasted 20 boxing minutes. (2 vs Patterson, 18 vs Clay).

It seems almost fashionable to say Tyson was overated and fought in a terrible era, but as James said was it really much worse than Louis', Marciano's and a few other great champions era. Tyson beat EVERYBODY in his era except Tim Witherspoon and of course James Douglas.

Lets not forget "Greedy" "Past it" Holmes went ON to score close decision losses in two world title attempts (including a majority decision vs McCall) and beat the then reigning WBO champion Mercer, handily. This was all when Holyfield was 5-7 years OLDER than when he faced Tyson.

The more you look at the reigns of the heavyweight champs, then the more you can pick holes in their resumes. Louis fought weak opposition for the most part, but that was all that was around at the time, and he was champ forever despite losing his best years. Marciano's best wins were over Louis retreads and fringe level contenders. Liston as said was best as a contender, his reign was very brief. Frazier was flatted by the way his fights with Ali panned out, was hammered to death by Foreman, and never faced Shavers, Lyle, Norton or a host of other fighters that Ali beat.

Ali had struggles with many heavweights, cooper, Maricano, Norton, Ellis, but was around in or around the top a long time.

I think in time Tyson's reign will be reevaluated, sure, he lost to the best fighters he faced, and never really came back from adversity (although he should have gotten the win against Douglas in a just world), but he blazed through the division in a way not seen since Dempsey (an overrated champion if ever I saw one), and absolutely annihilated the lesser fighters of his era with ease.

[Rocky Balboa]

Not to mention his very impressive wins over Carl Williams and Alex Stewart. Awesome.

The thing with (peak)Tyson was if he missed with the left hook, you knew there was a booming right to the belly, followed by a crashing right uppercut coming at blinding speed.

Often, his opponents couldnt even look above the papapet, let alone fire back.

On skill, speed and power alone would have been a first round favourite against every HW in history. (in his brief prime)

This, coupled with the fact the he won the title at 20, makes him deserving of a top 10 place, in my book.

As for Bowe, a modern, bigger, version of Joe Louis. Could have been no1 of all time, but had the wrong kind of hunger. Although peak versus peak, I'd pick him to outpoint Tyson and KO Lewis. Although Bowe was stationery at times and that could be a danger for him, particularly against Tyson.

The one I would have liked the 86 Tyson to fight was Tim Witherspoon, but King was having none of it. Bonecrusher didnt help either.

I watched Tyson's wins over Williams, Stewart last night; they were highly impressive. Remember, Williams was a solid fighter, although he had been knocked down quite a number of times throughout his career. The Williams who fought Tyson, would certainly be a holder of the HW title if he were fighting today. During Reg Gutteridge's commentary for the fight, he says something along the lines of: "It's not just power & speed Tyson has, but he's also got a lot of ability and a good defense to go with those attributes".

Tyson vs Stewart was one of the best ever Tyson performances, maybe THE best. I have read interviews, during which Mike has stated he felt his best showing was the KO of Alex Stewart. Remember, Stweart gave a very resepctable showing in a losing effort against Holyfield before fighting Tyson. Going into the Tyson fight, Stewart had a record of 26 wins, 1 defeat.

I often wonder what would have transpired had Mike stayed with his original team. I definately feel that when he sacked Rooney as his trainer, Mike stopped improving as a fighter. Mike is not saint by any means, but the way King, Horne, Holloway treated him, is an absolute crime. Do you know that King convinced Tyson not to have any financial advisor, no lawyer, etc. They robbed him blind, bled him dry. Once Mike hooked up with King and his cronies, there was never going to be a good ending, or one that was for the interest of Mike Tyson, that's for sure!

[HeavyHitters]

Inside work was his weak suit, but as you can see on that clip, he wasn't as bad as all that. His weakness was when someone held on the inside, he didn't know how to work his way out of it, and liked to have his hands free.

Name one big name fighter that was able to be successful fighting when someone was hugging them for deal life.....

Well???

If a survival-type fighter is determined to hug and hold as much as he can to keep from getting KO'ed, it's almost next to impossible get a good shot in on them, let alone KO them.

At times, Tyson was able to punch thru and lands bombs on his "scared opponent", but only a few times. Watch Tyson vs. Bruno II, Tyson vs. Biggs, Tyson vs. Botha, and Tyson vs. Nielsen. Other tall fighters like Tillis, Smith, Lewis, McBride, Tucker, and among many others, had too strong of a strangle-hold on the mere 5' 10" Tyson.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Inside work was his weak suit, but as you can see on that clip, he wasn't as bad as all that. His weakness was when someone held on the inside, he didn't know how to work his way out of it, and liked to have his hands free.

Name one big name fighter that was able to be successful fighting when someone was hugging them for deal life.....

Well???

If a survival-type fighter is determined to hug and hold as much as he can to keep from getting KO'ed, it's almost next to impossible get a good shot in on them, let alone KO them.


At times, Tyson was able to punch thru and lands bombs on his "scared opponent", but only a few times. Watch Tyson vs. Bruno II, Tyson vs. Biggs, Tyson vs. Botha, and Tyson vs. Nielsen. Other tall fighters like Tillis, Smith, Lewis, McBride, Tucker, and among many others, had too strong of a strangle-hold on the mere 5' 10" Tyson.

I don't know what your problem is mate, I just said in that very post, that Tyson wasn't all that bad on the inside. However, early in his carer, during his peak, he would get frustrated quite easily by a bit of holding.

Later in his career, when past his best, Tyson became better at dealing with holding and spoiling tactics, probably because he was fighting much more direct looking for power shots rather than employing 'the system' which required constant movement and combination punching.