Who ranks higher historically? Wlad or Mike Tyson

[Ezzard]

Urban myths about Spinks make me chuckle. Only he knows his physical and mental health status, but everyone and there Aunty has there own theory. He handled Gerry Cooney with relative ease a year earlier. So I'm not sure what happened that made him scarcely able to walk to the ring.

Neither do I.

I was being sarcastic.

So was I.

[keithmoonhangover]

Neither do I.

I was being sarcastic.

So was I.

Oh, so you agree that Spinks beats Wlad?

[gilgamesh]

How do people here position the top Heavies of the past say 40 years?

1. Larry Holmes
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Deontay Wilder
9. George Foreman
10. Anthony Joshua

And it should be noted that Foreman's ranking in this group is based purely on his 2nd career, since that all comes into play during this run.

I debated in my mind who had a better career between Povetkin and AJ of the last 40 years. I ultimately decided on AJ.

[oogiebe]

How do people here position the top Heavies of the past say 40 years?

1. Larry Holmes
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Deontay Wilder
9. George Foreman
10. Anthony Joshua

And it should be noted that Foreman's ranking in this group is based purely on his 2nd career, since that all comes into play during this run.

I debated in my mind who had a better career between Povetkin and AJ of the last 40 years. I ultimately decided on AJ.

Reasonable list. I might flip flop the top two guys and maybe prime Bowe over Mike Tyson and Klit but his prime was so woefully short. Honestly not sure about Wilder's position there.

[gilgamesh]

How do people here position the top Heavies of the past say 40 years?

1. Larry Holmes
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Deontay Wilder
9. George Foreman
10. Anthony Joshua

And it should be noted that Foreman's ranking in this group is based purely on his 2nd career, since that all comes into play during this run.

I debated in my mind who had a better career between Povetkin and AJ of the last 40 years. I ultimately decided on AJ.

Reasonable list. I might flip flop the top two guys and maybe prime Bowe over Mike Tyson and Klit but his prime was so woefully short. Honestly not sure about Wilder's position there.

There's certainly reasonable debate to be had. I wasn't sure whether or not to put Wilder over old George myself.

How would you rank 'em?

And see folks. Let this be a lesson to you. Oogie respectfully disagreed with some of my choices. It's not that hard, ya bunch of dicks

Now let us resume in a Gentlemanly manner. Oogs. Your list sir.

[oogiebe]

1. Larry Holmes
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Deontay Wilder
9. George Foreman
10. Anthony Joshua

And it should be noted that Foreman's ranking in this group is based purely on his 2nd career, since that all comes into play during this run.

I debated in my mind who had a better career between Povetkin and AJ of the last 40 years. I ultimately decided on AJ.

Reasonable list. I might flip flop the top two guys and maybe prime Bowe over Mike Tyson and Klit but his prime was so woefully short. Honestly not sure about Wilder's position there.

There's certainly reasonable debate to be had. I wasn't sure whether or not to put Wilder over old George myself.

How would you rank 'em?

And see folks. Let this be a lesson to you. Oogie respectfully disagreed with some of my choices. It's not that hard, ya bunch of dicks

Now let us resume in a Gentlemanly manner. Oogs. Your list sir.

My pleasure:
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Larry Holmes
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Riddick Bowe (purely off the Holyfield trilogy)
6. George Foreman (he finds Mike and Wlad's chins and was still hard to hit and had amazing accuracy)
7. Mike Tyson
8. Wladimir Klitschko
9. Razer Ruddick
10. Povetkin (I think in his prime he beats AJ)

5-8 are all so very close.

[gilgamesh]

Reasonable list. I might flip flop the top two guys and maybe prime Bowe over Mike Tyson and Klit but his prime was so woefully short. Honestly not sure about Wilder's position there.

There's certainly reasonable debate to be had. I wasn't sure whether or not to put Wilder over old George myself.

How would you rank 'em?

And see folks. Let this be a lesson to you. Oogie respectfully disagreed with some of my choices. It's not that hard, ya bunch of dicks

Now let us resume in a Gentlemanly manner. Oogs. Your list sir.

My pleasure:
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Larry Holmes
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Riddick Bowe (purely off the Holyfield trilogy)
6. George Foreman (he finds Mike and Wlad's chins and was still hard to hit and had amazing accuracy)
7. Mike Tyson
8. Wladimir Klitschko
9. Razer Ruddick
10. Povetkin (I think in his prime he beats AJ)

5-8 are all so very close.

I had that issue as well. The back half of the list was much harder to come up with. The Top 4 are a no brainer to me.

And I can see putting Lennox ahead of Larry if you're saying dismissing his run prior to 1982 (or hell even if you include it I guess. It's debatable certainly). I went ahead and Grandfathered Larry's previous work in, but since I didn't do that with George you could say that's unfair, but in that case George would be coming WAY up the list.

Larry's career didn't have the same long, long hiatus the way George's did. Where George came back in the 80's and started over pretty much from scratch. Larry was still in the flow here, and always kinda stayed somewhat in the mix until he was pretty much out of the sport save for novelty bouts.

[Ezzard]

How do people here position the top Heavies of the past say 40 years?

1. Larry Holmes
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Deontay Wilder
9. George Foreman
10. Anthony Joshua

And it should be noted that Foreman's ranking in this group is based purely on his 2nd career, since that all comes into play during this run.

I debated in my mind who had a better career between Povetkin and AJ of the last 40 years. I ultimately decided on AJ.

Top 3 stand out and can be swapped but are ultimately the top 3 however you choose to order them.

4-7 are similar. They are a second tier.

Always tricky using active fighters. I would have Vitali in the top 10.

[Jaywheel]

Holmes gets a pass in your rankings but you criticize Tyson's opponents when comparing him to Wlad.

Evander, Lennox, Mike and Larry are the top 4 of the last 40 years. Mike destroyed fighters that Holmes gets praised for decisionning.

Fury is not retired but would be my number 5.

But hey, Wlad beat Tony Thompson faster the 2nd time around

[Ezzard]

No doubt a case can be made for Mike Tyson as you say. Don't think the manner of victory is always vitally important but it's a fair point.

Mike's win over Pinklon Thomas was the most impressive for me. Holmes at that point was not keen to face him. Risk to reward and all that.

[gilgamesh]

How do people here position the top Heavies of the past say 40 years?

1. Larry Holmes
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Tyson Fury
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Deontay Wilder
9. George Foreman
10. Anthony Joshua

And it should be noted that Foreman's ranking in this group is based purely on his 2nd career, since that all comes into play during this run.

I debated in my mind who had a better career between Povetkin and AJ of the last 40 years. I ultimately decided on AJ.

Top 3 stand out and can be swapped but are ultimately the top 3 however you choose to order them.

4-7 are similar. They are a second tier.

Always tricky using active fighters. I would have Vitali in the top 10.

Yeah, you're probably right. Vitali probably deserves AJ's spot if not Wilder's.

[Ambling Alp II]

First 6 aren't that difficult:
1. Holmes
2. Holyfield
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Bowe
6. Douglas


Then there is a dropoff and gets hard. Besides currently and guys who retired a few years ago, you also have guys from the 1980s like Tim Witherspoon, Tony Tucker, and Pinklon Thomas.
Ray Mercer is an interesting guy to consider. gave Holyfield a tough match in a very fight and Mercer could have got the decision against Lewis. Beat Damiani and Morrison. Course he lost to an ancient Holmes and Ferguson in bad performances.

[gilgamesh]

First 6 aren't that difficult:
1. Holmes
2. Holyfield
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Bowe
6. Douglas


Then there is a dropoff and gets hard. Besides currently and guys who retired a few years ago, you also have guys from the 1980s like Tim Witherspoon, Tony Tucker, and Pinklon Thomas.
Ray Mercer is an interesting guy to consider. gave Holyfield a tough match in a very fight and Mercer could have got the decision against Lewis. Beat Damiani and Morrison. Course he lost to an ancient Holmes and Ferguson in bad performances.

Even YOU know you're just taking the piss on that 6th one

[Ambling Alp II]

Hell no.

[gilgamesh]

Hell no.

And YOU Know that I Know that YOU Know that I KNOW! That you're f*cking around

[Jaywheel]

This is how Tyson took care of Berbick:



This is how Holmes did it. Yes he is a pioneer of MMA but still... (fast forward to 1:30)

[Jaywheel]

Yeah I kinda forgot Bowe. I'd put him at 5 and Fury at 6 I guess. The 2 wins over Evander are better than everything both Klits did combined.

[keithmoonhangover]

If you made a list of the top 20 heavyweights of the 90's, Bowe fought one of them.

[Jaywheel]

He beat number 1 twice.

[keithmoonhangover]

He beat number 1 twice.

I didn't know he fought Lennox Lewis.

[Ezzard]

This is how Tyson took care of Berbick:



This is how Holmes did it. Yes he is a pioneer of MMA but still... (fast forward to 1:30)

I know the 80s HWs pretty well. I use Berbick as a sort of barometer for how good contenders are/were. If they're around his level then they're a good challenger.

[Ambling Alp II]

And Tyson knocked Berbick silly in two rounds. Yet another reason that Tyson deserves to be rated much higher than Kltischko.

[HomicideHenry]

For what it's worth:

1. Larry Holmes
-IMHO everything that Muhammad Ali could do Larry Holmes did better he just had the misfortune of following a wildly popular champion and was competing in a relatively weak era in history; of all the heavy weights in history this is the man that I think would beat Muhammad Ali the most times.

2. Muhammad Ali
-He's the measuring stick by which all other heavyweights are compared but he wasn't this unbeatable Superman figure that the fan boys make him out to be; the 1960s version was faster but wasn't a complete fighter as he was so quick he could get away with mistakes, the 1970s version I find to be a bit superior because he learned to adapt to compensate for the loss in speed even though the losses began to pile up but this is also due to the fact that he was finally competing with heavy weights who were in the same pedigree as himself (ie, Frazier & Foreman & Norton, etc).

3. Evander Holyfield
-Greatest Cruiserweight of all-time who becomes 4x Heavyweight champion who was robbed of being a 5x Heavyweight champion. IMHO he had not only great conditioning and amazing self-belief he was very tough with good power and good skills. I think he could have got wins over Ali and Holmes, and would have defeated the vast majority of heavyweight champions in history.

4. Lennox Lewis
-Greatest European Heavyweight champion, Greatest British Heavyweight champion, he certainly the greatest big man in heavyweight history being three-time heavyweight champion and avenging all of his losses. He had very fast hands for his size and hit hard but had an excellent mind for boxing as a science though he could dig down deep and brawl it out if he had to.

5. Joe Louis
-25 title defenses over the course of nearly 12 years. I will never forget my grandfather saying that this man was the greatest fighting machine from the waist up he had ever seen and my grandfather saw basically every champion from Jack Dempsey to Lennox Lewis. More so than any other figure in boxing was the most beloved athlete in the sports history. His record is literally a Who's Who of boxing: Carnera, Baer, Schmeling, Braddock, Walcott, Charles, Conn, Lewis, Marciano, etc. Only old age prevented him from further success.

6. George Foreman
-The first incarnation was a seemingly indestructible brutal puncher who flattened everybody but Muhammad Ali and Jimmy Young. He becomes a born again Christian leaving the ring for a decade only to return as a more savvy boxer puncher who regains the title nearly 20 years to the day after losing it. Either version of George Foreman was difficult to defeat because he either blew you away or he outlasted you because he had a chin made out of cast iron steel.

7. Wladimir Klitschko
- Although he fought in a weak era of heavyweights it can't be ignored that the man had a title reign much like Larry Holmes and Joe Louis; his imposing size and physical conditioning along with his willingness to learn and adapt and improve would have made him a difficult assignment for any heavyweight in history.

8. Vitali Klitschko
-Considered by many still to this day to be the better brother I rank him slightly lower because he wasn't the unified or undisputed champion. That being said his imposing size and conditioning and toughness along with tremendous punching power would have made him a difficult assignment for any heavyweight in history.

9. Tyson Fury
-6'9" 260+ switch hitter with not only a brilliant mind in the ring but with very good hand and foot speed, the Gypsy King has essentially been the man to beat since 2015; his earlier career he demonstrated great boxing ability and mobility, his later career he demonstrated heart and toughness as well as solid punching power. His greatest strength has been his ability to adapt and change styles and he would have been problematic for any heavyweight in history.

10. Rocky Marciano
-Perhaps a sentimental favorite of mine but I tend to believe at his best he would have defeated Joe Louis at his best and that he was better than Joe Frazier, and I think he would have defeated Muhammad Ali at different times in his career. I think he was better than Jack Dempsey and without question he was the best conditioned heavyweight of all time who's work rate only increased as the fight went on rather than decrease. He wouldn't have been able to do much with the big men on this list, but virtually every heavyweight from the 2000s and prior I think he either would have defeated or he would have narrowly lost to.

Just Outside...

11. Mike Tyson
-He probably could have defeated Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis but the fact remains that Mike Tyson's prime was extremely short. I can't see him doing anything with the prime Larry Holmes or the prime Muhammad Ali, and I don't think anyone with a swarming style could have ever defeated George Foreman. And let's face it Mike Tyson struggled with tall heavyweights as well. Because his prime was so short and he largely lived off the notoriety of his name fighting mostly B-grade opponents following Buster Douglas, I can't see him being higher than this right here although I do think it probably in his prime he potentially could have defeated Lennox Lewis.

[Ezzard]

Nobody pre-Louis, Henry?

[HomicideHenry]

Nobody pre-Louis, Henry?

One could argue the best of the bunch prior to the likes of Joe Louis would have been Gene Tunney skillwise, while the best puncher may very well have been Jim Jefferies. Of course Jack Johnson fits into that argument as well but I don't see the diminutive Tunney or the limited Jefferies or the somewhat overrated Johnson being able to do anything with the likes of Joe Louis in 15 round bouts more modern rules (ie, neutral corner) let alone with anyone else on the list that I have here.