Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[granberry]

Mark Kram was fired from Sports Illustrated when it was found he was on the take from Don King, who was paying him more than the salary he got from Sports Illustrated.

That came out at the same time Ring magazine's John Ort was exposed as on the take from Don King as he made ratings for what was left of RING after Nat Fleischer had died.

Now we need a quote from boxing 'expert' David Remnick.

Then drunken Bert Sugar.

And then of course Joyce Carol Oates.

[ThatOne]

Mark Kram was fired from Sports Illustrated when it was found he was on the take from Don King, who was paying him more than the salary he got from Sports Illustrated.

That came out at the same time Ring magazine's John Ort was exposed as on the take from Don King as he made ratings for what was left of RING after Nat Fleischer had died.

Now we need a quote from boxing 'expert' David Remnick.

Then drunken Bert Sugar.

And then of course Joyce Carol Oates.

You are a glutton for punishment, francis. Why don't you regale us some more with your fairy tales about delivering orange juice to dehydrated fighters or your imaginary conversations with Gene Fullmer, Harold Johnson, Jimmy Young, Georgie Benton, Bill Cayton and Joe Frazier.

Or you can just make up a bunch of crap and attribute it to Sports Illustated. Remember this gem:

YOU LIE, milky.

Folley was quoted in Sports Illustrated the week after that fight.

He said specifically that Ali was not a good puncher.

He gave Liston as the example of a real puncher. "But that was ten years ago," Folley said, referring to his fight with Liston.

WHAT ARE YOU SELLING, milky?

WHY DO YOU LIE?


-granberry

Zora Folley Ranks Muhammad Ali As No. 1




I went to New York to win the championship. I wouldn't have gone if I did not think I could win. I was confident. But Ali beat me at my own game. He did the same thing to Liston (knocked him out with a right hand, didn't he); Williams, another big puncher, Ali knocked him out in short order. Terrell, the great jabber, what happened to him? He got outjabbed. And Patterson, the guy with superspeed hands, couldn't match Ali and just stood around and got punched to pieces.

"The right hands Ali hit me with just had no business landing—but they did. They came from nowhere. Many times he was in the wrong position but he hit me anyway. Blatt! and the punch connected. I've never seen anyone who could do that. The knockdown punch was so fast that I never saw it. He has lots of snap, and when the punches land they dizzy your head; they fuzz up your mind.

"The first time I went down, I wasn't hurt, but I didn't know what had happened. Suddenly I became aware of the noise and then I saw Ali standing over me, and I figured I was down. So I wheeled around to look at my corner, to find out the count. I kept thinking, was that a right hand he hit me with? So what did he do but hit me with the same punch again in the seventh round and knock me out. I can't believe it, but that's what he did.

"He's smart. The trickiest fighter I've seen. He's had 29 fights and acts like he's had a hundred. He could write the book on boxing, and anyone that fights him should be made to read it first.

"I did things to Ali that have never been done before. He missed more punches and landed fewer than with all of those other guys he's been in with. I also cut the ring on him, reduced it so consistently that he chose to stand and fight. He's a safety-first fighter, no matter how foolish he looks. And I made him fight. That could have been my worst mistake, making him fight. I hurt him to the body, but he's tough. You can tell from the way he's put together that he's got pride. The man's a real fighter. Look at the way he acts out of the ring and you can see that. In the ring the guy doesn't show when he's been hurt. Not even the smallest sign, the way most fighters do. He beat me good, but he didn't beat me bad.

"There's just no way to train yourself for what he does: the moves, the speed, the punches and the way he changes style every time you think you got him figured. Wendell Newton, my sparring partner, jumped around and he was awkward, but he wasn't Ali. Ali is something else. I fought middleweights, even smaller men and they weren't as fast. This guy has a style all of his own. It's far ahead of any fighter's around today, so how could those oldtime fighters, you know, Dempsey, Tunney or any of them keep up? Louis wouldn't have a chance—he was too slow. Marciano couldn't get to him, and he would never get away from Ali's jab. The only one who would have a good chance was Ezzard Charles, a real fast heavyweight who was smart and was perhaps the best combination puncher of them all."



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm


http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=59862

Now, go back into your cellar or whatever primordial ooze you crawled out of and let the grown ups discuss boxing.

[ThatOne]

Folley was quoted in Sports Illustrated the week after that fight.

He said specifically that Ali was not a good puncher.

He gave Liston as the example of a real puncher. "But that was ten years ago," Folley said, referring to his fight with Liston.

-granberry

From now on I deem you "liarberry"

I think Zora would know he fought Liston in 60 and not 57.

[granberry]

Ali worshippers become desperate and hysterical

when anyone questions the overblown pr of their media created hero.

Let's hear some more 'quotes' from Farts Illustrated, the Ali pr publication.

We're still waiting for some quotes from boxing 'expert' Davis Remnick.

The clueless don't know that Sports Illustrated's Mark Kram was let go after it was discovered he was on the take from Don King for more than his salary at Farts Illustrated.

Give use some more 'quotes' from Mark Kram, Ali worshipper.

[Klee Gluckman]

Tua smashes Wlad, beats vitali, but would be no match for Ali, Frazier would survive the early onslaught and cut his body to pieces.

[Robinson]

Surely is a pretty absolute word.

I see these guys having a chance, some better than
others.

I do tend to favour Holmes and Frazier over Ali.

Bowe does get frustrated against a good moving guy
with some size, speed and durability. So him vs Ali
would be an interesting one.

Norton has a good shot, if he counters hard and fights
a similar fight that he did against the 70s Ali. Only the
slight speed and athletic instincts of 1960s Ali may be
enough to tip the balance.

Holyfield I can see struggling with a guy like Ali. I see it
being close and even. But its a hard one to pick because
both men have strengths and weaknesses that play into
the others game.

Tyson and Louis should be added to the list. Because their
strengths and weaknesses make for an exciting and
interesting match up against Ali.

[ThatOne]

Give use some more 'quotes' from Mark Kram, Ali worshipper


-granberry

Your ignorance is astounding. You have to be the most ignorant man I have ever encountered. If this was a fight the referee would have stopped this a long time ago.

Kram was far from a Ali worshipper. In fact one could argue the opposite. That's why he wrote "Ghosts Of Manila" which was highly critical of him. Here's Kram on Ali. Francis, let's just let the readers of this thread decide if this sounds like the words of someone who worships someone:

"But was he (Ali) a hero? Well, a hero in my mind breaks the normal ranks, goes out on his own and acts spontaneously . Ali never acted spontaneously in this world of revolution. He was always dictated to by the Muslims, from beginning to end. There was a bright line of manipulation by the Muslims..."

Sounds like something you would have wrote if you didn't sleep your way through reform school.

[ThatOne]

Let's hear some more 'quotes' from Farts Illustrated, the Ali pr publication.


-granberry

Francis, if Sports Illustrated is biased as you suggest why did you think so highly of it as to fabricate a bunch of quotes by Zora Folley and attribute them to it. Remember this:

YOU LIE, milky.

Folley was quoted in Sports Illustrated the week after that fight.

He said specifically that Ali was not a good puncher.

He gave Liston as the example of a real puncher. "But that was ten years ago," Folley said, referring to his fight with Liston.

WHAT ARE YOU SELLING, milky?


WHY DO YOU LIE?

And then this:


"I went to New York to win the championship. I wouldn't have gone if I did not think I could win. I was confident. But Ali beat me at my own game. He did the same thing to Liston (knocked him out with a right hand, didn't he); Williams, another big puncher, Ali knocked him out in short order. Terrell, the great jabber, what happened to him? He got outjabbed. And Patterson, the guy with superspeed hands, couldn't match Ali and just stood around and got punched to pieces.

"The right hands Ali hit me with just had no business landing—but they did. They came from nowhere. Many times he was in the wrong position but he hit me anyway. Blatt! and the punch connected. I've never seen anyone who could do that. The knockdown punch was so fast that I never saw it. He has lots of snap, and when the punches land they dizzy your head; they fuzz up your mind.

"The first time I went down, I wasn't hurt, but I didn't know what had happened. Suddenly I became aware of the noise and then I saw Ali standing over me, and I figured I was down. So I wheeled around to look at my corner, to find out the count. I kept thinking, was that a right hand he hit me with? So what did he do but hit me with the same punch again in the seventh round and knock me out. I can't believe it, but that's what he did.

"He's smart. The trickiest fighter I've seen. He's had 29 fights and acts like he's had a hundred. He could write the book on boxing, and anyone that fights him should be made to read it first.

"I did things to Ali that have never been done before. He missed more punches and landed fewer than with all of those other guys he's been in with. I also cut the ring on him, reduced it so consistently that he chose to stand and fight. He's a safety-first fighter, no matter how foolish he looks. And I made him fight. That could have been my worst mistake, making him fight. I hurt him to the body, but he's tough. You can tell from the way he's put together that he's got pride. The man's a real fighter. Look at the way he acts out of the ring and you can see that. In the ring the guy doesn't show when he's been hurt. Not even the smallest sign, the way most fighters do. He beat me good, but he didn't beat me bad.

"There's just no way to train yourself for what he does: the moves, the speed, the punches and the way he changes style every time you think you got him figured. Wendell Newton, my sparring partner, jumped around and he was awkward, but he wasn't Ali. Ali is something else. I fought middleweights, even smaller men and they weren't as fast. This guy has a style all of his own. It's far ahead of any fighter's around today, so how could those oldtime fighters, you know, Dempsey, Tunney or any of them keep up? Louis wouldn't have a chance—he was too slow. Marciano couldn't get to him, and he would never get away from Ali's jab. The only one who would have a good chance was Ezzard Charles, a real fast heavyweight who was smart and was perhaps the best combination puncher of them all."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm


Now's the time to regale us with imaginary conversations with boxing luminaries of the past and providing nutrition to wanting fighters. I have proven you to be a liar, a charlatan, a cipher, a miscreant, and a kook. Perhaps you need to find a board where the less informed will be mesmerized by your chicanery because I intend to expose you everytime I see you.

THATONE

[irongloves]

The Q has to be in a trilogy of fights (prime v prime), who may realistically win 1 fight vs Ali.

Frazier has the W so obviously him. It wasn't prime Ali but still very good. He is a stylistic issue for Ali.

I don't think Norton would have a W vs prime Ali.

Tyson is stylistically perfect but he's too weak mentally. He would not get a W.

Joe Louis might have. He was technically great and could possibly exploit Ali's flaws for a 1/3 win.

Bowe was big, brave, strong and technically good. He would pose issues but I am unsure if he'd get a W.

Lennox is in a similar boat.

The Klits - Wlad is a no. Ali would psyche him out. Vlad would pose more issues but no dice.

Fury?
Jack Johnson?

[gilgamesh]

There are more than 4 guys who COULD beat him. I don't know that there are 4 who would SURELY beat him.

In just about any fight Ali could lose, he could also just as likely win in my opinion.

[DrDuke]

Frazier did that in reality.

[gilgamesh]

Yes

I feel like Holyfield is a guy that always would've been a handful for him. Along with Lennox Lewis. Larry Holmes probably would've always been right there with him in a 50/50 fight at worst.

So that's 3 there that I think pose the biggest stylistic problems for him.

[Ambling Alp II]

No one in his prime.

[gilgamesh]

No one in his prime.

Come on now Alp. There's no such thing as an unbeatable man. That's why the old adage "Styles Make Fights" exist. There's always somebody that can beat anyone.

There's always gonna be 1 guy out there that for whatever is just all wrong for you. Maybe he's awkward. Maybe his timing throws you off. Something will get you against all the 100's of 1000's of possible mythical potential opponents one could face.

There ain't a Bull that can't be Rode or a Rider that can't be Throwed.

That doesn't just go for Ali. That's every Boxer. There's never been a boxer in any weight class that's unbeatable.

[HomicideHenry]

No one in his prime.

Come on now Alp. There's no such thing as an unbeatable man. That's why the old adage "Styles Make Fights" exist. There's always somebody that can beat anyone.

There's always gonna be 1 guy out there that for whatever is just all wrong for you. Maybe he's awkward. Maybe his timing throws you off. Something will get you against all the 100's of 1000's of possible mythical potential opponents one could face.

There ain't a Bull that can't be Rode or a Rider that can't be Throwed.

That doesn't just go for Ali. That's every Boxer. There's never been a boxer in any weight class that's unbeatable.

Seconded.

I will always insist that details is everything when considering hypothetical head-to-head matchups. Imagine Muhammad Ali in an 18 foot ring for example with somebody like Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey, I don't care how fast he was in the 1960s he's getting the snot knocked out of him.

[gilgamesh]

It would definitely make a huge difference when considering Dempsey in hypothetical matchups if you're using the rules as they were in 1919 when Dempsey won the title.

Being able to stand over your opponent, and get right back on him once he gets back to his feet changes the game considerably.

[bwu]

I think it was Al Bernstein who said that if Boxing was like Baseball, and there was a World Series of Boxing, there are plenty of guys who would hand Ali a good challenge. Prime for prime, many of the fighters named in this thread would've given Ali a hard night or even won a bout or two in the series. But Ali would've come out on top.

Somebody has to be number one. Ali's speed carries him to the top.

[keithmoonhangover]

I like how the title of the thread is "Ali in his prime, 4 guys that surely would have beaten him". Then he names 5 guys!

Unfortunatly, that is the most accurrate thing about the post.

I'm just surprised Roberto Duran ain't on that list.

[Teddy's Toupee]

I like how the title of the thread is "Ali in his prime, 4 guys that surely would have beaten him". Then he names 5 guys!

Unfortunatly, that is the most accurrate thing about the post.

I'm just surprised Roberto Duran ain't on that list.

If it was on the cobbles he would be.

[DrDuke]

No one in his prime.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yourself.
Past his prime he beat Frazier and Foreman.
Klitschko's title defense aren't going to save him.
He was way too fast for everyone, including the fleetfooted and quick punching Lennox Lewis.

Ali had the fastest hand speed and was very accurate. He would easily outland anyone.

[gilgamesh]

Yourself.
Past his prime he beat Frazier and Foreman.
Klitschko's title defense aren't going to save him.
He was way too fast for everyone, including the fleetfooted and quick punching Lennox Lewis.

Ali had the fastest hand speed and was very accurate. He would easily outland anyone.

Klitschko's title defense aren't going to save him?

Nobody anytime recently has brought up any Klitschko in this thread.

[DrDuke]

Yourself.
Past his prime he beat Frazier and Foreman.
Klitschko's title defense aren't going to save him.
He was way too fast for everyone, including the fleetfooted and quick punching Lennox Lewis.

Ali had the fastest hand speed and was very accurate. He would easily outland anyone.

No, I'll only at your pain because of the fact, that Frazier beat prime Ali.

[Ambling Alp II]

A prime Ali? You think that was a prime Ali? Seriously?
Guessing you have never seen the fight. Try watching it. Then watch his fights from Liston through Folley. Huge difference in hand speed, foot movement, reflexes, stamina etc.

If you are trainer, your advice isn't to a your fighter" take off 3 and a half years, fight a couple of tune ups and then take on Joe Frazier".

Anybody that has played any sport knows you can't take off that much time and come back and be the same.

[DrDuke]

A prime Ali? You think that was a prime Ali? Seriously?
Guessing you have never seen the fight. Try watching it. Then watch his fights from Liston through Folley. Huge difference in hand speed, foot movement, reflexes, stamina etc.

If you are trainer, your advice isn't to a your fighter" take off 3 and a half years, fight a couple of tune ups and then take on Joe Frazier".

Anybody that has played any sport knows you can't take off that much time and come back and be the same.

Liston and especially Folley were so similar to Frazier. Smokin' Joe rolled just like our Sonny, didn't he?

Not performing without any damage or injury is the lamest excuse for being 'past prime'. Even the Gypsy King returned in prime, after terrible rape of own body, yet your hero Muh somehow faded.

However, the Ali fanbois will always desperately try to find excuses for their hero.