How would you rate Marciano if Tiger Ted Lowry got the decision?

[Controversial]

Marciano was said to be lucky to get the nod in his first fight with Tiger Ted Lowry who had a 64-49-6 record and was on a run of 7 consecutive losses going into the fight. The newspapers of the day had Lowry winning with Marciano in trouble a few times in the early rounds and apparently came close to being stopped. It was reported the crowd booed loudly when the decision was announced. Lowry said he thought it was a home town decision. There were also rumours that Marciano's manager and his "connections" played a part in the decision.

So for arguments sake let's say the footage of the fight appeared on YouTube and on watching it, it was clear Lowry won the fight. Or alternatively Lowry was actually given the nod on the night and Marciano's unbeaten run ended. Would you rank Marciano different?



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[gilgamesh]

I think it goes without saying that if Marciano's record goes from 49-0 to 48-1 his standing in history changes dramatically.

[Controversial]

I think it goes without saying that if Marciano's record goes from 49-0 to 48-1 his standing in history changes dramatically.

Which is crazy right? Because he may have actually lost but because the record books show otherwise it's like it never happened.

[gilgamesh]

I think it goes without saying that if Marciano's record goes from 49-0 to 48-1 his standing in history changes dramatically.

Which is crazy right? Because he may have actually lost but because the record books show otherwise it's like it never happened.

That's the funny thing about Boxing. As time goes on, all that stands is the result, and whether or not you actually won or lost is lost to time. Controversy or no, fans with rose tinted glasses just love that 0.

Only the people who saw it when it happened really know.

I honestly think when you look back with the result already in mind it can change the way you're looking at the fight.

If Marciano had lost to Lowry though he would've at least still gotten big fights, because the era was far more forgiving of losses than the modern era.

If Mayweather had officially lost the decision to Jose Luis Castillo, which he should've then it would've changed the entire trajectory of his career. The De La Hoya fight that made him a big PPV superstar likely never happens at all.

So in a lot of ways because of the money he went on to make. Mayweather may have caught the luckiest break ever in Boxing history. If he loses to Castillo in 2002 (and make no mistake, he did) he isn't the richest Boxer of all time. But the Boxing Gods (in this case Bob Arum) saved him.

[Controversial]

It just shows how fickle rankings and opinions can be. Marciano is probably in lots of top 5 HW lists, if not top 5 definitely top 10. People will argue he could beat Ali or Tyson but the fact is if he didn't get the decision against Lowry most of those arguments about him beating other ATGs wouldn't be made or stand up to scrutiny. Plus I doubt anyone would rank him as high as they do now.

[HomicideHenry]

I think it goes without saying that if Marciano's record goes from 49-0 to 48-1 his standing in history changes dramatically.

The same can be said of Tyson Fury when one looks back on his first match with John McDermott. However the judges must have had it right somehow because of one looks at the trajectory of both men's careers it was Fury who ended up being two time heavyweight champion. Same thing can be said of Marciano. Maybe the thought process was that Ted Lowry was a veteran who was only going to go so far while Rocky Marciano still had time.

[gilgamesh]

I think it goes without saying that if Marciano's record goes from 49-0 to 48-1 his standing in history changes dramatically.

The same can be said of Tyson Fury when one looks back on his first match with John McDermott. However the judges must have had it right somehow because of one looks at the trajectory of both men's careers it was Fury who ended up being two time heavyweight champion. Same thing can be said of Marciano. Maybe the thought process was that Ted Lowry was a veteran who was only going to go so far while Rocky Marciano still had time.

The judges never have it right if they're scoring it on a guy's future prospects, and not what it is.

A fight speaks for itself. It is it's own story. If a Veteran beats a Prospect, even though the Prospect is likely going on to bigger things and the Veteran is going out to pasture. The veteran earned and deserves his rightful victory just as much as the prospect does.

I'm not talking about Lowry-Marciano specifically here because hell I haven't seen the fight so I can't speak to it's being a robbery or not, I'm just saying robbery in Boxing is never justifiable to me. Fair is fair. Right is right. A winner is a winner.

Just because the story that got told ain't the one the promoter wanted, don't mean it ain't what happened.

We owe it to the fighters who give us their blood, sweat and tears for our entertainment to acknowledge the truth.

Obviously it's up to us the fans to see it fair because God knows the promoters and officials won't a great deal of the time.

[HomicideHenry]

And it really depends on who is judging the fights to be honest. Some judges prefer actual boxing while other judges prefer aggressive fighters. It's one of those fights that will be a mystery cuz there is no film on it so nobody can make their own judgments.

The only thing I know about Ted Lowry was in that special edition of Ring Magazine talking about the 100 greatest punchers of all time that there was a section on each fighter called, "the guy they couldn't knock out," and Ted Lowry was that guy for Rocky Marciano.

I still have that somewhere in my house but from my recollection they said that it couldn't really be held against Marciano because several other men like Jersey Joe Walcott went the distance with Ted Lowry as well. So he must have been something special in his own right even if he was never a contender.

He probably was one of those type of guys that made everybody look like crap even if he was on the losing end. Even if you won it gave the impression that you still lost somehow with certain fighters and I imagine in that era Ted Lowry was that kind of guy.

[gilgamesh]

And it really depends on who is judging the fights to be honest. Some judges prefer actual boxing while other judges prefer aggressive fighters. It's one of those fights that will be a mystery cuz there is no film on it so nobody can make their own judgments.

The only thing I know about Ted Lowry was in that special edition of Ring Magazine talking about the 100 greatest punchers of all time that there was a section on each fighter called, "the guy they couldn't knock out," and Ted Lowry was that guy for Rocky Marciano.

I still have that somewhere in my house but from my recollection they said that it couldn't really be held against Marciano because several other men like Jersey Joe Walcott went the distance with Ted Lowry as well. So he must have been something special in his own right even if he was never a contender.

He probably was one of those type of guys that made everybody look like crap even if he was on the losing end. Even if you won it gave the impression that you still lost somehow with certain fighters and I imagine in that era Ted Lowry was that kind of guy.

I have that magazine. I've read oodles of times. Yeah Lowry was only stopped like 3 times in 140 or so fights against a who's who of tough guys of his era. So I think it's safe to say he was a pretty durable guy.

[Seamus]

There were those who felt LaStarza beat Marciano the first time. Yes, there's a great chasm between 49-0 and 48-1, but in reality he'd be no worse.

[Ezzard]

No different. He would have still gone on to achieve the same thing or thereabouts.

[Ezzard]

What if Holmes lost to Witherspoon?

Ali lost to Jones?

Lewis lost to Mercer?

[Ambling Alp II]

Holmes to Witherspoon? That would have hurt Holmes all time standing a bit. Holmes was starting to get past it. Their probably would have been a rematch. Witherspoon would be more highly regarded today.

Ali to Jones/ A little. Ai had not quite reached his prime. The decision was fair though. Nobody can seem to find more than 4 rounds that Jones won. And it was a great fight.

Lewis would have hurt the most of the three. It would have been more legit. if he loses, it would have been a big setback. He might not have got a big fight soon. Mercer would be much more highly regarded today.

As for the original question:
Some people go after Marciano because of his record.
How much should it count if it was legit? On the one hand he was early in career. On the other he still should be able to beat someone like that.
Obviously would great if we actually see the bout.

[margaret thatcher]

obviously rock would have nowhere near the luster, the records a big part of his legacy

[HomicideHenry]

Technically Rocky Marciano did lose while as a professional because early on in his career he still engaged in amateur matches while competing under the name Rocky Mack in the pros. It's just never held against him because well quite frankly one is amateur and the other is professional although he was doing both at the same time.

I'm kind of reminded of the last Olympics where there was a few professionals competing or I'm reminded of the World Series of boxing. Personally I'm of the opinion that professionals should not be allowed into the Olympics or into the amateurs but it's neither here or there.

[Controversial]

As for the original question:
Some people go after Marciano because of his record.
How much should it count if it was legit? On the one hand he was early in career. On the other he still should be able to beat someone like that.
Obviously would great if we actually see the bout.

So let’s just imagine he lost the decision as the newspapers suggest he did but the rest of his career panned out the same way and he retired 48-1. Would you change your view or ranking of him or treat it as a minor bump in the road?

[Ambling Alp II]

I would consider it minor bump in the road. Would not completely ignore it, if it did happen. Would not hold it against him as much if he was seasoned pro and/or he would have gotton beaten badly.

I think the undefeated record actually hurts his cause with some people. The record stands out like sore thumb. It gets the attention of younger fans, and since it was before their time they have to come up some criticism of him. If he was 48-1, we wouldn't constantly hear how weighed less then the magical 200 pounds, so he automatically couldn't have been that good.

[Controversial]

I would consider it minor bump in the road. Would not completely ignore it, if it did happen. Would not hold it against him as much if he was seasoned pro and/or he would have gotton beaten badly.

This is what I find interesting though as it may well have happened, Marciano could’ve been given a decision he didn’t deserve. So our opinions change based on a decision that could’ve been complexity unjust or corrupt. Not saying that was the case but you get my point, the fact the record books say he won trumps everything.

[gilgamesh]

It wouldn't have really affected his progress in his own time, and I could easily see him going to 48-1 and achieving all the same things basically, but his historical standing if he'd lost a decision to a guy with 60+ losses would've dropped enormously.

He would've went from All time Top 10 to arguably not even All Time Top 30 just based off of that one result.

The 0 is honestly the only reason he's in the Top 10 all time. It'd be a LONGGGGG reach to put him there without it.

So in his case, the undefeated record is a gigantic part of his legacy.

[Ambling Alp II]

He still has the wins over Walcott, Charles, Moore, Layne, LaStarza. People that know the sport could actually watch some of his fights and see how good he was. He would still be rated highly by knowledgeable boxing fans, though not by arrogant people who think the sport magically got better the day they became a fan.

[gilgamesh]

He still has the wins over Walcott, Charles, Moore, Layne, LaStarza. People that know the sport could actually watch some of his fights and see how good he was. He would still be rated highly by knowledgeable boxing fans, though not by arrogant people who think the sport magically got better the day they became a fan.

I guarantee you without that 0 he wouldn't be considered a Top 15 All Time Heavyweight, let alone Top 10.

So yeah, it'd make a huge difference in his perception. Wouldn't make one iota of difference in his actual ability, but as the old saying goes "Perception is reality"

On a sidenote: If you're referring to me as one of the people who thought the sport magically got better the day I became a fan.

That day was November 24th, 2001 by the way, and it kicked into high gear on January 5th, 2002 but I digress.

Wouldn't the best fighters of all time to me be Mayweather and Pacquiao? Wouldn't the best Middleweights of all time be Hopkins and Golovkin? Wouldn't the best Heavyweights of all time be Wladimir and Tyson Fury? If the sport was better now than it had ever been.

Shockingly, that is not the case with any of those.

What we have here, is a guy who has no real substance to his opinion so he has to resort to petty insults to try to score points.

[gilgamesh]

One more thing I'd like to point out just because I find it amusing.

Alp in this thread is basically saying that IF Marciano had lost to Lowry it'd be no big deal at all.

He constantly busts Wlad's balls about the Ross Purrity loss though.

Lowry has more losses on his record than Purrity, Sanders, Brewster and AJ COMBINED. In fact he has twice as many losses as all of them combined.

Just a little food for thought.

[HomicideHenry]

When it comes to Rocky Marciano I'm reminded of a quote from Teddy Atlas where he said Marciano was both the most underrated and most overrated heavyweight of all time because of the 49 wins and zero losses.

It holds a lot of weight, that statement because nobody other than Marciano has been able to retire undefeated as heavyweight champion. That magic number of 49 wins and zero losses has basically took on mythic proportions.

Had he not been 49 wins and zero losses and no draws I think there is a case to be made that he would not have been in the top 10 all time heavyweight greats. And I say that even though the man is my favorite heavyweight champion of all time.

But let's suppose he did have a loss, I suppose one could make an argument if it happened early on in his career it would have been forgivable considering how he blew through Walcott and Charles and Moore. I think the Ted Lowry fight happened when Marciano was 20-0-0. So the middle of his career at the time.

That being said, the first Lowry fight was before Marciano's breakthrough matches with Carmine Vingo and Roland LaStarza. He fought Lowry again afterwards and easily won the rematch. If there were any doubts, Marciano erased them.

[Controversial]

It just goes to show how one scorecard can change how someone is viewed. For arguments sake if it were a hometown decision and the judges were corrupt in some way then in reality Marciano lost. Had there been other judges maybe he would’ve lost officially. So his entire all time position is potentially based on just ignoring a loss because the record books say otherwise. Just shows what a fine line there is sometimes. If Marciano did officially lose to Lowry I’m sure only a few would argue hard that he could beat Ali (or whoever) as many do now because the instant reply they would get is "he couldn't even beat a journeyman with almost as many losses as wins"

Reminds me a bit of JCC, so much was made of his unbeaten record at the time when in fact he did lose a fight early in his career that got overturned later. He would have been viewed totally different if that loss stood.

[AngryGoon38]

This made me think of making a thread about Floyd Mayweather Jr and the What if premise pertaining to the first bout versus Jose Luis Castillo. The fact that had Castillo been given the nod, if even by a one point SD win, then I don't see where that would've been highly disputed, and I don't see Floyd's overall status or legacy being legit affected had That Alternate and not absurdly obscene possibility occured.

Should I make this LiL reply comment of mine into A separate thread topic then..?!
Nahhh. Why bother..?!
Proverbial main point being, Marciano losing a 10 round decision versus Journeyman spoiler specialist tough-guy Tiger Ted would not have effected Rocky's legacy, impact, and influence. Just as Duran's loss in his 30th pro bout to DeJesus didn't garnish Duran's legacy in the slightest bit.
Rocky Marciano to me is not some lucky boxer that happened to go 49-0.
He Farrrrr Transcends that minoot detail.

When I think of Rocky Marciano I think of Grit, Tenacity, Balls of Steel, Fearlessness, and an inner drive that exceeds even the highest levels of mere powerful ferocity. Rocky was the epitome of the fierce willingness to go out on his shield even if being pounded from corner to corner against an unbeatable adversary/opponent.