Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[gilgamesh]

A prime Ali? You think that was a prime Ali? Seriously?
Guessing you have never seen the fight. Try watching it. Then watch his fights from Liston through Folley. Huge difference in hand speed, foot movement, reflexes, stamina etc.

If you are trainer, your advice isn't to a your fighter" take off 3 and a half years, fight a couple of tune ups and then take on Joe Frazier".

Anybody that has played any sport knows you can't take off that much time and come back and be the same.

Liston and especially Folley were so similar to Frazier. Smokin' Joe rolled just like our Sonny, didn't he?

Not performing without any damage or injury is the lamest excuse for being 'past prime'. Even the Gypsy King returned in prime, after terrible rape of own body, yet your hero Muh somehow faded.

However, the Ali fanbois will always desperately try to find excuses for their hero.

You know what's a big one that Ali super fans overlook?

Some fans will say Tyson Fury's wins over Sefer Seferi and Francesco Pianeta can in a loose way be counted as title defenses because he was still the "Lineal Champion" right?

Well by that same token, I'd say you can count Ali's wins over Quarry and Bonavena in 1970 as title defenses.

And I do.

I'm surprised more people don't bring that up because those are 2 more rock solid title defenses to his ledger. Hell the Bonavena fight I know for a fact was even a 15 rounder.

[Ambling Alp II]

You don't need to point to crap like the number of title defenses to make the case that he was the best of all time.

[Ambling Alp II]

A prime Ali? You think that was a prime Ali? Seriously?
Guessing you have never seen the fight. Try watching it. Then watch his fights from Liston through Folley. Huge difference in hand speed, foot movement, reflexes, stamina etc.

If you are trainer, your advice isn't to a your fighter" take off 3 and a half years, fight a couple of tune ups and then take on Joe Frazier".

Anybody that has played any sport knows you can't take off that much time and come back and be the same.

Liston and especially Folley were so similar to Frazier. Smokin' Joe rolled just like our Sonny, didn't he?

Not performing without any damage or injury is the lamest excuse for being 'past prime'. Even the Gypsy King returned in prime, after terrible rape of own body, yet your hero Muh somehow faded.

However, the Ali fanbois will always desperately try to find excuses for their hero.

Yeah Fury has just been awesome. Didn't realize that he came back after 3 and a half years and within a few months beat Joe Frazier. My bad.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Mark Kram was fired from Sports Illustrated when it was found he was on the take from Don King, who was paying him more than the salary he got from Sports Illustrated.

That came out at the same time Ring magazine's John Ort was exposed as on the take from Don King as he made ratings for what was left of RING after Nat Fleischer had died.

Now we need a quote from boxing 'expert' David Remnick.

Then drunken Bert Sugar.

And then of course Joyce Carol Oates.

- Alas, poor Granberry! I never knew him, but reputed to be a feller of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

When I signed on, I was repeatedly accused of being his alias, apparently Banned, all for refusing to uphold the Sainted Ali as the best ever fighter, period. Them was the days when I took on everyone freestyle every day.

Anyway, as I previously noted elsewhere:
Olympic Gold medalist Clay Knocked down by 190lb prospect Sonny Banks.

Clay beat up by 190 lb fringe contender Doug Jones.

Clay knocked out by 175 lb Henry Cooper who had to wear weights in his trunks to give the fight credibility. Oh, wait, wait, you don't say slickster Angie pulled a torn glove delaying tactic to extend Clay rest period while applying illegal smelling salts that kicks him into the next round?




Adding to that era, in the first Liston fight, had he screamed to Angie in the corner to cut the gloves off, that would default to TKO/Retired/Whatever The Official Loss decision by commish minders made up .

2nd Liston fight, had he fought with legend Jersey Joe while trying to kick the downed Liston in the noggin such that it was over 20 seconds before Joe could wrestle him into the neutral corner, it would never go 20 sec in today's officiating. Automatic DQ unless you be TBE TUE fighting in Vegas at MGM Floydy.

So, that's 4 fight straight losses right out of the gate for Ali where he never wins a title, and likely has to retire early for being such a flake. Instead Ali adds another half dozen controversial wins without ever suffering a single controversial loss. Easy Greatest Living if you can stomach it...Wilt Wilt Wilt

[Cojimar 1946]

Frazier would be giving up like 50 pounds and close to 9 inches in height against Fury. I don't know if he would be effective against a quality opponent with that sort of size advantage. They didn't have shws like Fury in his era

[gilgamesh]

You don't need to point to crap like the number of title defenses to make the case that he was the best of all time.

No, you don't. I'm just surprised more people don't give him his rightful due for those.

[keithmoonhangover]

Anyone claiming Ali was in his prime after the ban haven't studied his after ban fights. It is clear that his footspeed isn't the same, as clear as day.

[keithmoonhangover]

Mark Kram was fired from Sports Illustrated when it was found he was on the take from Don King, who was paying him more than the salary he got from Sports Illustrated.

That came out at the same time Ring magazine's John Ort was exposed as on the take from Don King as he made ratings for what was left of RING after Nat Fleischer had died.

Now we need a quote from boxing 'expert' David Remnick.

Then drunken Bert Sugar.

And then of course Joyce Carol Oates.

- Alas, poor Granberry! I never knew him, but reputed to be a feller of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

When I signed on, I was repeatedly accused of being his alias, apparently Banned, all for refusing to uphold the Sainted Ali as the best ever fighter, period. Them was the days when I took on everyone freestyle every day.

Anyway, as I previously noted elsewhere:
Olympic Gold medalist Clay Knocked down by 190lb prospect Sonny Banks.

Clay beat up by 190 lb fringe contender Doug Jones.

Clay knocked out by 175 lb Henry Cooper who had to wear weights in his trunks to give the fight credibility. Oh, wait, wait, you don't say slickster Angie pulled a torn glove delaying tactic to extend Clay rest period while applying illegal smelling salts that kicks him into the next round?




Adding to that era, in the first Liston fight, had he screamed to Angie in the corner to cut the gloves off, that would default to TKO/Retired/Whatever The Official Loss decision by commish minders made up .

2nd Liston fight, had he fought with legend Jersey Joe while trying to kick the downed Liston in the noggin such that it was over 20 seconds before Joe could wrestle him into the neutral corner, it would never go 20 sec in today's officiating. Automatic DQ unless you be TBE TUE fighting in Vegas at MGM Floydy.

So, that's 4 fight straight losses right out of the gate for Ali where he never wins a title, and likely has to retire early for being such a flake. Instead Ali adds another half dozen controversial wins without ever suffering a single controversial loss. Easy Greatest Living if you can stomach it...Wilt Wilt Wilt

Are you related to IlDuce?

[DrDuke]

Ali's speed, reflexes, stamina, chin and some hair on the head definitely were gone after the life-taking hiatus, so he lost to all those bums like Frazier and Norton, eventhough they were worse than the greats like Smokin' Zora Folley, Cleveland Sweet Pea Williams and Brian The Blackpool Assassin London. If Ali was in his prime, he wouldn't lose either to Frazier or to Norton, either to Larry Holmes or to Mike Tyson. Ya, he would last longer and retire undefeated after collecting scalps of Holyfield, Lewis and Klitschkos (the least he would stop in rd 1 both).

[keithmoonhangover]

Ali's speed, reflexes, stamina, chin and some hair on the head definitely were gone after the life-taking hiatus, so he lost to all those bums like Frazier and Norton, eventhough they were worse than the greats like Smokin' Zora Folley, Cleveland Sweet Pea Williams and Brian The Blackpool Assassin London. If Ali was in his prime, he wouldn't lose either to Frazier or to Norton, either to Larry Holmes or to Mike Tyson. Ya, he would last longer and retire undefeated after collecting scalps of Holyfield, Lewis and Klitschkos (the least he would stop in rd 1 both).

[irongloves]

I think it was Al Bernstein who said that if Boxing was like Baseball, and there was a World Series of Boxing, there are plenty of guys who would hand Ali a good challenge. Prime for prime, many of the fighters named in this thread would've given Ali a hard night or even won a bout or two in the series. But Ali would've come out on top.

Somebody has to be number one. Ali's speed carries him to the top.

Thomas Hauser makes a similar point.

[HomicideHenry]

Imagine if boxing was done like a Major League Baseball season of 162 matches... I pretty much guarantee 20 fights in if even that Muhammad Ali would start losing the bulk of his matches from that point onward.

Why do I say this? If Muhammad Ali beat people it was by cutting them over the eye or they were so tired chasing him that he ended up stopping them. But he was the only one who was really getting damaged because everybody was being the aggressor towards him while he was mostly on defense.

After a while the speed would start to dwindle and he would start catching more and more relying on his toughness. I mean think about it the first match would be somebody like Jack Dempsey and then the second match would be like Joe Frazier and then the third match would be Rocky Marciano and the fourth match would be George Foreman and the fifth match would be Mike Tyson, etc--- he would have success early on but after a while he would just get the snot knocked out of him.

That's nearly 14 matches a month. And let's say each fight was 12 rounds. There's no way in my view that a guy like Muhammad Ali is going to last because he's going to be doing far more inside the ring than everyone else because he's utilizing as much speed and athleticism as possible and that in and of itself is going to cause wear and tear.

No I think in a MLB season format it's going to be the big time punchers who end things early who are going to end up having the most success because they end up with less wear and tear.

[gilgamesh]

The Human Body couldn't take 14 fights a month against that level of opposition. I don't think it could take 2 at that level.

Even the Legends like Greb who fought numerous times in a month didn't fight the cream of the crop every single time out. Hell you couldn't. You couldn't take it. Nobody that ever lived could.

[HomicideHenry]

The Human Body couldn't take 14 fights a month against that level of opposition. I don't think it could take 2 at that level.

Even the Legends like Greb who fought numerous times in a month didn't fight the cream of the crop every single time out. Hell you couldn't. You couldn't take it. Nobody that ever lived could.

Most likely not. But let's figure 1 match a month. 12 matches. I am still not sure Ali wins half of those against other top ten-fifteen guys.

[keithmoonhangover]

Ali at his peak was a close to unbeaten as I have seen in any other heavyweight. At his peak (Liston-Folley), his footspeed, handspeed and reflexes are unmatched by any heavyweight ever.

[Ezzard]

I'm one of those who think we was better in the 70s than he was in the 60s.

[keithmoonhangover]

I'm one of those who think we was better in the 70s than he was in the 60s.

I respect your opinion, but..... Which parts of his game do you think were better?

[Ezzard]

I'm one of those who think we was better in the 70s than he was in the 60s.

I respect your opinion, but..... Which parts of his game do you think were better?

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm one of those who think we was better in the 70s than he was in the 60s.

I respect your opinion, but..... Which parts of his game do you think were better?

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

Seconded.

Anyways if I was to throw a name out there I would probably say James Douglas the night he defeated Mike Tyson probably could have defeated any heavyweight champion in history. The man fought practically the perfect fight for one night only and it's a shame he never did quite care for boxing because he probably could have went down as one of the greatest of all time if not be greatest had he actually wanted to be a boxer.

[gilgamesh]

I respect your opinion, but..... Which parts of his game do you think were better?

His overall game was better. And ring craft. His skillset improved too. His whole game became much more versatile. He faced more formidable punchers and yet was dropped fewer times.

Seconded.

Anyways if I was to throw a name out there I would probably say James Douglas the night he defeated Mike Tyson probably could have defeated any heavyweight champion in history. The man fought practically the perfect fight for one night only and it's a shame he never did quite care for boxing because he probably could have went down as one of the greatest of all time if not be greatest had he actually wanted to be a boxer.

I don't think Buster Douglas was some unbeatable, perfect fighting machine the night he beat Mike Tyson, but he damn sure was the best version of himself that he'd ever be there's no doubt about that.

Like for instance had THAT version of Buster fought Tony Tucker, there's no doubt he would've beaten him.

But that being said I can't really see even the best version of Buster beating the likes of Ali, Lewis, Frazier, Foreman, Holyfield, Bowe.

I think there's a lot of guys that could've beaten even the best Buster. But he had all the stuff that added up to be Mike Tyson's kryptonite for sure, and a motivated Douglas who wanted it as bad as he wanted it that night would've definitely not been a cakewalk for anyone.

[p4p1]

Why do I say this? If Muhammad Ali beat people it was by cutting them over the eye or they were so tired chasing him that he ended up stopping them. But he was the only one who was really getting damaged because everybody was being the aggressor towards him while he was mostly on defense.

WHAT?

[p4p1]

The Human Body couldn't take 14 fights a month against that level of opposition. I don't think it could take 2 at that level.

Even the Legends like Greb who fought numerous times in a month didn't fight the cream of the crop every single time out. Hell you couldn't. You couldn't take it. Nobody that ever lived could.

Most likely not. But let's figure 1 match a month. 12 matches. I am still not sure Ali wins half of those against other top ten-fifteen guys.

But in an MLB type format all those guys have to be doing the same amount of fighting. You're version is Ali fighting fresh fighters ever few weeks until he is so injured and/or exhausted one of them is able to beat him. That doesn't prove anything. fornicate, I could probably beat Ali if he had to fight all those guys back to back for 12 months before he fought me.

[p4p1]

The Human Body couldn't take 14 fights a month against that level of opposition. I don't think it could take 2 at that level.

Even the Legends like Greb who fought numerous times in a month didn't fight the cream of the crop every single time out. Hell you couldn't. You couldn't take it. Nobody that ever lived could.

Isn't it now considered fact that these guys would also take it easy on each other during the stay busy fights so they could both fight the next week? Essentially glorified sparring sessions.

[gilgamesh]

The Human Body couldn't take 14 fights a month against that level of opposition. I don't think it could take 2 at that level.

Even the Legends like Greb who fought numerous times in a month didn't fight the cream of the crop every single time out. Hell you couldn't. You couldn't take it. Nobody that ever lived could.

Isn't it now considered fact that these guys would also take it easy on each other during the stay busy fights so they could both fight the next week? Essentially glorified sparring sessions.

You're the first person I've ever heard say that. So I don't know how factual it is.

[p4p1]

The Human Body couldn't take 14 fights a month against that level of opposition. I don't think it could take 2 at that level.

Even the Legends like Greb who fought numerous times in a month didn't fight the cream of the crop every single time out. Hell you couldn't. You couldn't take it. Nobody that ever lived could.

Isn't it now considered fact that these guys would also take it easy on each other during the stay busy fights so they could both fight the next week? Essentially glorified sparring sessions.

You're the first person I've ever heard say that. So I don't know how factual it is.

I'm sure I have read it somewhere. The fights weren't decided or pre-planned like professional wrestling but both guys knew who was the better fighter and it was better for both of them if they made a decent enough show while not getting hurt or cut etc. I'm not saying it was every tune up/keep busy fight but I'm sure I have read it somewhere.

From a purely logical point of view I am sure it is true. Joe Bloggs with a record of 20-15 knows he isn't going to beat an elite guy after just losing to Jim Smith from down the road. Why risk either of you getting seriously hurt?