Ray Mercer Is Overrated

[HomicideHenry]

Context is everything and Oliver McCall prior to his shocking upset win over Lennox Lewis was basically seen as a glorified journeyman or trial horse. Only in retrospect is he held in greater esteem then he was at the time.

He beat the unbeaten Seldon and Damiani. Those wins made him a contender. Then he beat a Hall of Famer and successfully defended against another one.

True but I don't think anybody even back then thought that Bruce Seldon and Francesco Damiani in the mid 90s was anything to really scream over. Damiani basically lost all of his appeal following his loss to Ray Mercer, and Seldon in his next fight would also get stopped by Riddick Bowe and of course would also lose to Tony Tubbs and Mike Tyson in the future.

I will say that Oliver McCall in a sense is a bit like Ken Norton in which Ken Norton was saw as a stepping stone for Muhammad Ali but pulled off a major upset. Following the upset both men improved dramatically showing that they really did belong among the top 10 or top 5 heavyweights of their era.

But if one watches the build-up to Oliver McCall versus Lennox Lewis nobody gave McCall a shot and quite frankly that is what caused the upset to begin with because anytime Lennox Lewis was ever in danger or lost it was because he did not take the opposition seriously at all.

The very fact that Lennox Lewis would later hire Emanuel Stewart who was Oliver McCall's trainer kind of tells you everything. And mind you it took a long time for Lennox Lewis to get back his public image because the loss to Oliver McCall was seen as something truly detrimental at the time.

[Ambling Alp II]

Context is everything and Oliver McCall prior to his shocking upset win over Lennox Lewis was basically seen as a glorified journeyman or trial horse. Only in retrospect is he held in greater esteem then he was at the time.

He beat the unbeaten Seldon and Damiani. Those wins made him a contender. Then he beat a Hall of Famer and successfully defended against another one.

McCall did beat Lewis; it doesn't matter if it was a big upset for not. He should get some credit for it. (Though I don't think the fight should have been stopped, but that's another story.)
To obviously a lesser extent, he should credit for beat Damiani and Seldon. The Seldon is usually remembered only for getting ko'd by Bowe and Tyson. However he had also some (not a ton) of ability and decent for awhile. The McCall-Seldon fight was actually pretty good.

Holmes was of course way past his best, but he was still decent.

[HomicideHenry]

Okay I'll remember in the future that we're not allowed to consider context going into future discussions about past boxing greats, because that's just some sort of cheap cop out.

If you lost to somebody it don't matter if you were too young or you were too old, you were hooked on drugs and alcohol, you got recently divorced, or you came down with some sort of debilitating illness.

It don't matter what their perception was at the time when they were fighting it only matters how they look retrospectively. If you lost it's just your ass and you're either great or you suck. There is no in between especially in the world according to Alp.

[DrDuke]

So McCall beats Lennox Lewis and Ray Mercer losses to Jesse Ferguson and somehow on Planet Duke, Mercer gets a pass and leapfrogs McCall.

Suddenly, McCall got an overall worse credibility. He was considered as a journeyman before Damiani FFS.

Jesse Ferguson was a journeyman and Mercer lost to him. You just choose to ignore it. McCall beat Lennox Lewis and then Larry Holmes, who beat Mercer. Name the two boxers Mercer beat who were as good as Lewis and Holmes.

Stop being silly. I'm starting to think that you may not be a real Doctor.

Since you are so obssesed with losses of Mercer, why not to remember losses of McCall. He was defeated not only by Buster Douglas and aged Tony Tucker, but also by Orlin Norris, Mike Hunter and Joey Christjohn, whom you didn't name simply because it's impossible to remember a guy with such significance.

[orbtastic]

I don’t think he’s underrated or overrated.

He had some good wins and some very good losing performances. He also has some awful fights.

His main issue was focus and motivation. Yeah an old Holmes outboxed him but ray wasn’t really know for his boxing ability. It was chin and power.

He did well against both Holyfield and Lewis

[gilgamesh]

I don’t think he’s underrated or overrated.

He had some good wins and some very good losing performances. He also has some awful fights.

His main issue was focus and motivation. Yeah an old Holmes outboxed him but ray wasn’t really know for his boxing ability. It was chin and power.

He did well against both Holyfield and Lewis

While I'd agree that Ray wasn't known for his Boxing ability, i will give him that he had a pretty stiff jab.

[Ambling Alp II]

Okay I'll remember in the future that we're not allowed to consider context going into future discussions about past boxing greats, because that's just some sort of cheap cop out.

If you lost to somebody it don't matter if you were too young or you were too old, you were hooked on drugs and alcohol, you got recently divorced, or you came down with some sort of debilitating illness.

It don't matter what their perception was at the time when they were fighting it only matters how they look retrospectively. If you lost it's just your ass and you're either great or you suck. There is no in between especially in the world according to Alp.

What in the world are you talking about?
All I was saying was that Oliver McCall had some decent wins.

[keithmoonhangover]

Suddenly, McCall got an overall worse credibility. He was considered as a journeyman before Damiani FFS.

Jesse Ferguson was a journeyman and Mercer lost to him. You just choose to ignore it. McCall beat Lennox Lewis and then Larry Holmes, who beat Mercer. Name the two boxers Mercer beat who were as good as Lewis and Holmes.

Stop being silly. I'm starting to think that you may not be a real Doctor.

Since you are so obssesed with losses of Mercer, why not to remember losses of McCall. He was defeated not only by Buster Douglas and aged Tony Tucker, but also by Orlin Norris, Mike Hunter and Joey Christjohn, whom you didn't name simply because it's impossible to remember a guy with such significance.

I know about all of his losses and do take them into account. But wins over Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes (both of whom beat Ray Mercer) raise his stock past Mercer.

[keithmoonhangover]

Okay I'll remember in the future that we're not allowed to consider context going into future discussions about past boxing greats, because that's just some sort of cheap cop out.

If you lost to somebody it don't matter if you were too young or you were too old, you were hooked on drugs and alcohol, you got recently divorced, or you came down with some sort of debilitating illness.

It don't matter what their perception was at the time when they were fighting it only matters how they look retrospectively. If you lost it's just your ass and you're either great or you suck. There is no in between especially in the world according to Alp.

I don't think any sensible poster doesn't forgive old age. Drugs, booze and divorces are different. Some of the greats could park personal problems and be 100% mentally prepared for the fight. That's part of their job if they want to win a fight. They stay focused and find a way to win. If you want to win in any sport, you have a better chance of winning if you prepare properly.

If fighter A goes on a drinking bender and doesn't train properly, he doesn't get a pass, because he made bad lifestyle choices. A lot of boxers lose and have an excuse as to why.

So are you saying that every fighter with a good excuse is forgiven for their losses?

[DrDuke]

Jesse Ferguson was a journeyman and Mercer lost to him. You just choose to ignore it. McCall beat Lennox Lewis and then Larry Holmes, who beat Mercer. Name the two boxers Mercer beat who were as good as Lewis and Holmes.

Stop being silly. I'm starting to think that you may not be a real Doctor.

Since you are so obssesed with losses of Mercer, why not to remember losses of McCall. He was defeated not only by Buster Douglas and aged Tony Tucker, but also by Orlin Norris, Mike Hunter and Joey Christjohn, whom you didn't name simply because it's impossible to remember a guy with such significance.

I know about all of his losses and do take them into account. But wins over Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes (both of whom beat Ray Mercer) raise his stock past Mercer.

Still Mercer faced the better versions of both.

[keithmoonhangover]

Since you are so obssesed with losses of Mercer, why not to remember losses of McCall. He was defeated not only by Buster Douglas and aged Tony Tucker, but also by Orlin Norris, Mike Hunter and Joey Christjohn, whom you didn't name simply because it's impossible to remember a guy with such significance.

I know about all of his losses and do take them into account. But wins over Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes (both of whom beat Ray Mercer) raise his stock past Mercer.

Still Mercer faced the better versions of both.

And lost to both. Larry Holmes embarrassed him. He ain't the 5th best heavyweight of the 90's.

[DrDuke]

I know about all of his losses and do take them into account. But wins over Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes (both of whom beat Ray Mercer) raise his stock past Mercer.

Still Mercer faced the better versions of both.

And lost to both. Larry Holmes embarrassed him. He ain't the 5th best heavyweight of the 90's.

McCall won the much, much older and worse version of Holmes. It's like saying, that Berbick is better than Foreman because of the Ali win. You being stuck ro this is absurd.

And why on earth catching Lewis with one punch is better than giving him a fight?

[keithmoonhangover]

And why on earth catching Lewis with one punch is better than giving him a fight?

I am actually laughing at that, it's so insane. Why is it better? It's called winning. Please keep the silliness coming, it's hilarious.

[DrDuke]

And why on earth catching Lewis with one punch is better than giving him a fight?

I am actually laughing at that, it's so insane. Why is it better? It's called winning. Please keep the silliness coming, it's hilarious.

Insane is to rate the mediocre McCall over the solid top fighter Mercer because of the single lucky punch win. Now ask some doctor in your madhouse to give ya some pills to deal with this emotional delirium.

[keithmoonhangover]

And why on earth catching Lewis with one punch is better than giving him a fight?

I am actually laughing at that, it's so insane. Why is it better? It's called winning. Please keep the silliness coming, it's hilarious.

Insane is to rate the mediocre McCall over the solid top fighter Mercer because of the single lucky punch win. Now ask some doctor in your madhouse to give ya some pills to deal with this emotional delirium.

Just to clarify. Are you saying Mercer's performance against Lewis is better than McCall's? Yes or no?

[DrDuke]

I am actually laughing at that, it's so insane. Why is it better? It's called winning. Please keep the silliness coming, it's hilarious.

Insane is to rate the mediocre McCall over the solid top fighter Mercer because of the single lucky punch win. Now ask some doctor in your madhouse to give ya some pills to deal with this emotional delirium.

Just to clarify. Are you saying Mercer's performance against Lewis is better than McCall's? Yes or no?

Which one? When McCall lucky punched Lewis or when he cried around?

[keithmoonhangover]

Insane is to rate the mediocre McCall over the solid top fighter Mercer because of the single lucky punch win. Now ask some doctor in your madhouse to give ya some pills to deal with this emotional delirium.

Just to clarify. Are you saying Mercer's performance against Lewis is better than McCall's? Yes or no?

Which one? When McCall lucky punched Lewis or when he cried around?

The one you mentioned. The one you call a 'lucky' punch.

[DrDuke]

Just to clarify. Are you saying Mercer's performance against Lewis is better than McCall's? Yes or no?

Which one? When McCall lucky punched Lewis or when he cried around?

The one you mentioned. The one you call a 'lucky' punch.

Of course, technically you can't judge a winner. But to take that win as a sign of the supremacy over the overall career of a better fighter is narrow-minded.

[keithmoonhangover]

Which one? When McCall lucky punched Lewis or when he cried around?

The one you mentioned. The one you call a 'lucky' punch.

Of course, technically you can't judge a winner. But to take that win as a sign of the supremacy over the overall career of a better fighter is narrow-minded.

You didn't answer. Which is better..... McCall stopping Lewis in two or Mercer losing to Lewis on points? I'm just clarifying, because I think that's what you were eluding to.

[DrDuke]

The one you mentioned. The one you call a 'lucky' punch.

Of course, technically you can't judge a winner. But to take that win as a sign of the supremacy over the overall career of a better fighter is narrow-minded.

You didn't answer. Which is better..... McCall stopping Lewis in two or Mercer losing to Lewis on points? I'm just clarifying, because I think that's what you were eluding to.

McCall's win is better. But... Now tell me how it elevates McCall over Mercer.

[keithmoonhangover]

Of course, technically you can't judge a winner. But to take that win as a sign of the supremacy over the overall career of a better fighter is narrow-minded.

You didn't answer. Which is better..... McCall stopping Lewis in two or Mercer losing to Lewis on points? I'm just clarifying, because I think that's what you were eluding to.

McCall's win is better. But... Now tell me how it elevates McCall over Mercer.

Because McCall has a win over the best heavyweight of the 90's, who is in the Hall of Fame and is considered one of the very best heavyweights ever. Quite simple really.

And for the record, it wasn't a lucky punch. McCall called the shot between rounds.

[DrDuke]

You didn't answer. Which is better..... McCall stopping Lewis in two or Mercer losing to Lewis on points? I'm just clarifying, because I think that's what you were eluding to.

McCall's win is better. But... Now tell me how it elevates McCall over Mercer.

Because McCall has a win over the best heavyweight of the 90's, who is in the Hall of Fame and is considered one of the very best heavyweights ever. Quite simple really.

And for the record, it wasn't a lucky punch. McCall called the shot between rounds.

He f8cken landed a one punch, after what Lewis got up and was prematurely waved, and he was only able to quit in the rematch, while Mercer was outlanding Lewis on a number of episodes, outboxing him on a number of exchanges, making it competetive more than on a round and a half.

Idiots watch records, the reasonable ones watch fights.

[keithmoonhangover]

McCall's win is better. But... Now tell me how it elevates McCall over Mercer.

Because McCall has a win over the best heavyweight of the 90's, who is in the Hall of Fame and is considered one of the very best heavyweights ever. Quite simple really.

And for the record, it wasn't a lucky punch. McCall called the shot between rounds.

He f8cken landed a one punch, after what Lewis got up and was prematurely waved, and he was only able to quit in the rematch, while Mercer was outlanding Lewis on a number of episodes, outboxing him on a number of exchanges, making it competetive more than on a round and a half.

Idiots watch records, the reasonable ones watch fights.

I thought you said McCall's win was better?

If you still think it's a luck punch watch the below video at 7:01 and you'll hear McCall clearly say, "Come back with the short right hand." after Manny Stewart talks about countering. Then he lands a short right hand counter that wins the fight. It's as clear as day, so before you call someone an idiot, maybe you should check what actually happened.

[DrDuke]

Because McCall has a win over the best heavyweight of the 90's, who is in the Hall of Fame and is considered one of the very best heavyweights ever. Quite simple really.

And for the record, it wasn't a lucky punch. McCall called the shot between rounds.

He f8cken landed a one punch, after what Lewis got up and was prematurely waved, and he was only able to quit in the rematch, while Mercer was outlanding Lewis on a number of episodes, outboxing him on a number of exchanges, making it competetive more than on a round and a half.

Idiots watch records, the reasonable ones watch fights.

I thought you said McCall's win was better?

If you still think it's a luck punch watch the below video at 7:01 and you'll hear McCall clearly say, "Come back with the short right hand." after Manny Stewart talks about countering. Then he lands a short right hand counter that wins the fight. It's as clear as day, so before you call someone an idiot, maybe you should check what actually happened.

The fact of Lewis being over-confident is damn clear, I'd like to see how McCall would land it on the well-prepared Lews. Ah, the rematched showed it.

And I didn't call an idiot anyone personally. It's seems like you made the needed conclsion.

[keithmoonhangover]

He f8cken landed a one punch, after what Lewis got up and was prematurely waved, and he was only able to quit in the rematch, while Mercer was outlanding Lewis on a number of episodes, outboxing him on a number of exchanges, making it competetive more than on a round and a half.

Idiots watch records, the reasonable ones watch fights.

I thought you said McCall's win was better?

If you still think it's a luck punch watch the below video at 7:01 and you'll hear McCall clearly say, "Come back with the short right hand." after Manny Stewart talks about countering. Then he lands a short right hand counter that wins the fight. It's as clear as day, so before you call someone an idiot, maybe you should check what actually happened.

The fact of Lewis being over-confident is damn clear, I'd like to see how McCall would land it on the well-prepared Lews. Ah, the rematched showed it.

And I didn't call an idiot anyone personally. It's seems like you made the needed conclsion.

So, was it a lucky punch or not?