Who ranks higher historically - Ray Mercer or Oliver McCall?

[hhaehre]

Much like if they had actually fought. If they had fought 10 times Mercer would have won exactly 10 times.

Bullsh*t.

Double bullsh1t

I'll agree with McCall having the better resume, but prime v prime I see no way he beats Mercer. It would obviously be a distance fight, but Mercer clearly had much better skills. McCall often looked like a sparring partner, also in his prime. He'd be outboxed by a mile imo and there wouldn't be no Seldon type implosion to save him either.

[keithmoonhangover]

Bullsh*t.

Double bullsh1t

I'll agree with McCall having the better resume, but prime v prime I see no way he beats Mercer. It would obviously be a distance fight, but Mercer clearly had much better skills. McCall often looked like a sparring partner, also in his prime. He'd be outboxed by a mile imo and there wouldn't be no Seldon type implosion to save him either.

Well, in his prime, Mercer lost to Jesse Ferguson and struggled with him in the rematch. With that in mind, do you still not give McCall a chance?

[hhaehre]

Double bullsh1t

I'll agree with McCall having the better resume, but prime v prime I see no way he beats Mercer. It would obviously be a distance fight, but Mercer clearly had much better skills. McCall often looked like a sparring partner, also in his prime. He'd be outboxed by a mile imo and there wouldn't be no Seldon type implosion to save him either.

Well, in his prime, Mercer lost to Jesse Ferguson and struggled with him in the rematch. With that in mind, do you still not give McCall a chance?

Prime and in shape then, the best version of both fighters. Both these guys had bad outings in their prime.

[keithmoonhangover]

I'll agree with McCall having the better resume, but prime v prime I see no way he beats Mercer. It would obviously be a distance fight, but Mercer clearly had much better skills. McCall often looked like a sparring partner, also in his prime. He'd be outboxed by a mile imo and there wouldn't be no Seldon type implosion to save him either.

Well, in his prime, Mercer lost to Jesse Ferguson and struggled with him in the rematch. With that in mind, do you still not give McCall a chance?

Prime and in shape then, the best version of both fighters. Both these guys had bad outings in their prime.

Mercer losing to Ferguson in his prime is worse then any of McCall's in his prime.

[hhaehre]

Well, in his prime, Mercer lost to Jesse Ferguson and struggled with him in the rematch. With that in mind, do you still not give McCall a chance?

Prime and in shape then, the best version of both fighters. Both these guys had bad outings in their prime.

Mercer losing to Ferguson in his prime is worse then any of McCall's in his prime.

Again, I'm not talking about the Mercer who lost to Ferguson, just as I'm not talking about the McCall who had a drug induced nervous breakdown against Lewis.

[DrDuke]

McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG,

You and your idiotic lucky punch theory.

Not just a lucky punch, but also a premature stoppage. McCall had all sorts of a blessing that night. The rematch with the prepared Lewis showed true levels.

[Cojimar 1946]

McCall losing a rematch to Lewis doesn't help Mercers case since his losses are considerably worse than losing to Lewis

[keithmoonhangover]

McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG,

You and your idiotic lucky punch theory.

Not just a lucky punch,

You're either a troll or a complete buffoon.

[DrDuke]

You and your idiotic lucky punch theory.

Not just a lucky punch,

You're either a troll or a complete buffoon.

Since your weak mind couldn't produce an argument more worthy, than an ad hominem one, there's nothing to discuss with you.

[keithmoonhangover]

Not just a lucky punch,

You're either a troll or a complete buffoon.

Since your weak mind couldn't produce an argument more worthy

Apart from providing evidence of McCall calling the shot less than a minute before he threw it. But you choose to ignore the facts like a spoiled child who didn't get his own way.

[DrDuke]

You're either a troll or a complete buffoon.

Since your weak mind couldn't produce an argument more worthy

Apart from providing evidence of McCall calling the shot less than a minute before he threw it. But you choose to ignore the facts like a spoiled child who didn't get his own way.

And you choose to ignore the fact of Lewis being underprepared and overconfident, so you need a couple more emojis to strenghen your super-mature point.

[keithmoonhangover]

Since your weak mind couldn't produce an argument more worthy

Apart from providing evidence of McCall calling the shot less than a minute before he threw it. But you choose to ignore the facts like a spoiled child who didn't get his own way.

And you choose to ignore the fact of Lewis being underprepared and overconfident, so you need a couple more emojis to strenghen your super-mature point.

Show me proof that he was underprepared. I'm talking about facts, not just your opinion.

[DrDuke]

Apart from providing evidence of McCall calling the shot less than a minute before he threw it. But you choose to ignore the facts like a spoiled child who didn't get his own way.

And you choose to ignore the fact of Lewis being underprepared and overconfident, so you need a couple more emojis to strenghen your super-mature point.

Show me proof that he was underprepared. I'm talking about facts, not just your opinion.

He had a terrible coach, whom he rightfully left after this bout. Look at Lewis' performances on the way up and in the first title fight against Ruddock and compare them with the defenes against Bruno with McCall. He was declining under Correa. Then look how Lewis was rebuilt under Steward. When McCall defeated Lewis, Lennox wasn't an ATG yet, he was a misguided young fighter.

[gilgamesh]

You know how you know your argument isn't the correct one?

When you have to reach real far for ways to justify it. I don't have to reach. I don't have to try. It's just...right there.

I know you weren't one of the ones saying all this Duke, but it's funny that Lennox was an unprepared misguided young fighter, not an ATG when McCall beat him. So he gets I guess a pass on that loss, or is it more as a way to give McCall no credit?

Anyway, the same doesn't go for Wladimir in those arguments did it? Wladimir wasn't a misguided young fighter who got better under Steward, he was a bum who had a bad chin, and got beat by bad fighters

Even though he DID get better under the exact same trainer that Lewis did

Just kinda funny is all.

[DrDuke]

You know how you know your argument isn't the correct one?

When you have to reach real far for ways to justify it. I don't have to reach. I don't have to try. It's just...right there.

I know you weren't one of the ones saying all this Duke, but it's funny that Lennox was an unprepared misguided young fighter, not an ATG when McCall beat him. So he gets I guess a pass on that loss, or is it more as a way to give McCall no credit?

Anyway, the same doesn't go for Wladimir in those arguments did it? Wladimir wasn't a misguided young fighter who got better under Steward, he was a bum who had a bad chin, and got beat by bad fighters

Even though he DID get better under the exact same trainer that Lewis did

Just kinda funny is all.

Actually, I never used those arguments against Klit, like you say. Yeah, he indeed was in a bit different situation, since he lost majorly because of the chin issues, but he did progress and found the proper game to hide his chin. I do consider him as an ATG too.

[gilgamesh]

I didn't think you were one of the ones who used those arguments against Klit. It's just funny to see early losses of the same nature being excused for one ATG and not for another.

The board is funny like that.

[Ambling Alp II]

You know how you know your argument isn't the correct one?

When you have to reach real far for ways to justify it. I don't have to reach. I don't have to try. It's just...right there.

I know you weren't one of the ones saying all this Duke, but it's funny that Lennox was an unprepared misguided young fighter, not an ATG when McCall beat him. So he gets I guess a pass on that loss, or is it more as a way to give McCall no credit?

Anyway, the same doesn't go for Wladimir in those arguments did it? Wladimir wasn't a misguided young fighter who got better under Steward, he was a bum who had a bad chin, and got beat by bad fighters

Even though he DID get better under the exact same trainer that Lewis did

Just kinda funny is all.

I agree the crybaby excuse for Lewis is funny.
Misguided young fighter?
He already had been a pro for 5 years. He had 25 fights, including big ones against Ruddock, Bruno, and Tucker. Nobody was saying that he was stagnating as a fighter. He was in his absolute prime.
Liked the lucky punch excuse also.

There is no tangible proof that Lewis was better under Steward.
Btw-Steward was Klitschko's trainer for the first Brewster fight.

[gilgamesh]

Yep. I remember Vitali or someone accusing Steward or someone in the corner of putting Vaseline all over Wlad's body or some weird complaint as to why he tired out so abruptly?

Whatever the complaint was, it must not have had any substance to it because Wlad continued to work with him for the rest of his life.

[milpool]

Mercer was probably the better fighter but I suspect that McCall will be ranked higher historically due to him beating Lewis for the WBC title, defending it against a still decent Holmes and generally being considered a tough nut to crack.

[DrDuke]

You know how you know your argument isn't the correct one?

When you have to reach real far for ways to justify it. I don't have to reach. I don't have to try. It's just...right there.

I know you weren't one of the ones saying all this Duke, but it's funny that Lennox was an unprepared misguided young fighter, not an ATG when McCall beat him. So he gets I guess a pass on that loss, or is it more as a way to give McCall no credit?

Anyway, the same doesn't go for Wladimir in those arguments did it? Wladimir wasn't a misguided young fighter who got better under Steward, he was a bum who had a bad chin, and got beat by bad fighters

Even though he DID get better under the exact same trainer that Lewis did

Just kinda funny is all.

I agree the crybaby excuse for Lewis is funny.
Misguided young fighter?
He already had been a pro for 5 years. He had 25 fights, including big ones against Ruddock, Bruno, and Tucker. Nobody was saying that he was stagnating as a fighter. He was in his absolute prime.
Liked the lucky punch excuse also.

There is no tangible proof that Lewis was better under Steward.
Btw-Steward was Klitschko's trainer for the first Brewster fight.

You repeat the bullsh1t Ali excuses about the layoff like an every day mantra, but somehow you don't like excuses for Lewis or your favorite Klits.

Lewis clearly stagnated under Correa. He was still good against Ruddock, but he was already less convincing against Tucker, Bruno and McCall. Watch those fights, hear Correa's instructions instead of rewatching Ali vs Slick Bat Williams every f8cken day.

Wlad lost to Brewster with Steward? Turn your brain on and figure out, that it's impossible to improve in several times instantly. As if the new coach just switches an imrovement button on you. The progress could be noticed fight by fight. Gradually Wlad did become better. Look how he counteracted adversity vs Brewster and how vs Peter, then watch how he outclassed both in the rematches and handled a number of fighters, which were better than those two.

P.S. It's funny how Alpy appeared in this thread exactly by the moment people remembered Klit.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Mccal aint knocking out mercer so he isnt winning

[Benny The Kid]

These Boxers are fairly close in my Simulation.

Mercer ranks #5 in his era (era 5)

McCall Ranks #7 in his era (era 6)

In the overall Ranks Top 60 they are separated by a fair margin

Mercer is ranker # 35 overall

while MCcall is ranked #49 overall.

[gilgamesh]

A little odd that your simulation puts 'em in separate eras. They were basically around at the same time.

[oogiebe]

Not just a lucky punch,

You're either a troll or a complete buffoon.

Since your weak mind couldn't produce an argument more worthy, than an ad hominem one, there's nothing to discuss with you.

LL my favorite HW of all time. That said, I remember reading that that "lucky" punch was something he trained to do as his camp saw a flaw tendency watching film of LL. So no...It wasn't a lucky punch.

[Benny The Kid]

A little odd that your simulation puts 'em in separate eras. They were basically around at the same time.

The Era's are strictly established by birth years.