Title Defenses: Quality on Average - Heavyweights

[Ambling Alp II]

Doesn't matter that Vitali was a "force" for the next several years. He wasn't very good and beat a lot of guys that were worse. He would not have been a force in most other eras. Many of the guys that Ali, Holmes and others beat were better than him and some of those don't deserve even an 8.

[gilgamesh]

Doesn't matter that Vitali was a "force" for the next several years. He wasn't very good and beat a lot of guys that were worse. He would not have been a force in most other eras. Many of the guys that Ali, Holmes and others beat were better than him and some of those don't deserve even an 8.

Vitali would've absolutely been a force in any era.

What is your beef with the Klitschko's? You really seem to hate them to an obsessive degree.

Lennox past his prime beating Vitali is probably about as good a win as any past prime fighter ever got. I can't think of too many guys who have a bigger win their very last fight from any era. Can you?

Can you name a bigger LAST win than Vitali Klitschko?

[HomicideHenry]

Doesn't matter that Vitali was a "force" for the next several years. He wasn't very good and beat a lot of guys that were worse. He would not have been a force in most other eras. Many of the guys that Ali, Holmes and others beat were better than him and some of those don't deserve even an 8.

Vitali would've absolutely been a force in any era.

What is your beef with the Klitschko's? You really seem to hate them to an obsessive degree.

Lennox past his prime beating Vitali is probably about as good a win as any past prime fighter ever got. I can't think of too many guys who have a bigger win their very last fight from any era. Can you?

Can you name a bigger LAST win than Vitali Klitschko?

I honestly don't understand this great criticism or hate to words the older Klitschko brother. The man was a highly decorated amateur who ended up becoming a world champion kickboxer and then transitioned back into boxing and basically became two-time heavyweight champion. He had a rather high knockout percentage, good skills, high volume of punches for his size, with a cast iron jaw and he presented some rather awkward angles due to his martial arts background.

[Ambling Alp II]

It doesn't matter if he was a highly decorated amateur or a kickboxer.

He simply wasn't that good. Ever notice that nobody ever says things about his fighting ability?
With just about everyone else, it's "he had a lot power, speed, defense etc."
"He had a great uppercut, jab, left hook, right hand" etc.

Never with Vitaly because he simply didn't. He doesn't even get the obligatory "great jab" that tall fighters almost always get. Why not? Because there was nothing about him that was special.

With other fighters, it was he beat this guy and this guy".
Not with Vitaly? Why? Because his competition sucked and he lost the only two big fights of his career. People have to pretend that Corrie Sanders was really good just to come up with someone.
If he really was very good, he would have beaten that version of Lewis and Chris Byrd. don't care about the excuses.

It's not just me with the Klitschkos. a lot of people think they are way overrated.
Please homicide, spare me the longwinded response.

[gilgamesh]

It doesn't matter if he was a highly decorated amateur or a kickboxer.

He simply wasn't that good. Ever notice that nobody ever says things about his fighting ability?
With just about everyone else, it's "he had a lot power, speed, defense etc."
"He had a great uppercut, jab, left hook, right hand" etc.

Never with Vitaly because he simply didn't. He doesn't even get the obligatory "great jab" that tall fighters almost always get. Why not? Because there was nothing about him that was special.

With other fighters, it was he beat this guy and this guy".
Not with Vitaly? Why? Because his competition sucked and he lost the only two big fights of his career. People have to pretend that Corrie Sanders was really good just to come up with someone.

It's not just me with the Klitschkos. a lot of people think they are way overrated.
Please homicide, spare me the longwinded response.

I can't agree there was nothing about him that was special. He had a hell of a right hand. Usually coming down on his opponent like a pole axe because of his height, and he was damn good at keeping his opponents at the range he needed them to be where he could hit them, and they couldn't hit him. He almost always outlanded his opponents, and was never behind on the scorecards in any fight he was ever in. Clearly that points to having good ability. However awkward he may have looked in applying it, fact is, the guys in the ring with him had hell with him.

I remember him losing a few rounds to Corrie Sanders. I remember him losing 2 rounds or so to Lewis. I can't really recall him losing any rounds in fights he had after that.

[margaret thatcher]

more klit obsession, jeezus, definitely a star of this section

[gilgamesh]

more klit obsession, jeezus, definitely a star of this section

I guess it's just because people are divisive on them. Even someone like me who critiques 'em fairly is accused of being their biggest fan or by their haters

That's a sure sign that you meant something in Boxing though. If people feel strongly about you one way or the other.

[HomicideHenry]

Unlike Alp I've actually talked to fighters who either sparred or fought the Klitschko brothers where people like Kingpin Johnson told me that their jabs alone felt like your head was being slammed into a wall.

He can hate on them all he wants but the forum is pretty much unanimous in the opinion that his hatred of not only the Klitschko brothers but everyone following Lennox Lewis is just ridiculous.

No long-winded post is necessary to describe what is self-evident to everybody on the website. Men don't become two time heavyweight champions and defeat virtually every single person they have fought over the span of 20 years unless you was good.

[Ambling Alp II]

Whatever.

[Ambling Alp II]

It doesn't matter if he was a highly decorated amateur or a kickboxer.

He simply wasn't that good. Ever notice that nobody ever says things about his fighting ability?
With just about everyone else, it's "he had a lot power, speed, defense etc."
"He had a great uppercut, jab, left hook, right hand" etc.

Never with Vitaly because he simply didn't. He doesn't even get the obligatory "great jab" that tall fighters almost always get. Why not? Because there was nothing about him that was special.

With other fighters, it was he beat this guy and this guy".
Not with Vitaly? Why? Because his competition sucked and he lost the only two big fights of his career. People have to pretend that Corrie Sanders was really good just to come up with someone.

It's not just me with the Klitschkos. a lot of people think they are way overrated.
Please homicide, spare me the longwinded response.

I can't agree there was nothing about him that was special. He had a hell of a right hand. Usually coming down on his opponent like a pole axe because of his height, and he was damn good at keeping his opponents at the range he needed them to be where he could hit them, and they couldn't hit him. He almost always outlanded his opponents, and was never behind on the scorecards in any fight he was ever in. Clearly that points to having good ability. However awkward he may have looked in applying it, fact is, the guys in the ring with him had hell with him.

I remember him losing a few rounds to Corrie Sanders. I remember him losing 2 rounds or so to Lewis. I can't really recall him losing any rounds in fights he had after that.

Hell of a right hand? Really? Nobody ever talks about. Guess they will start now. The right hand was missing against Byrd. Couldn't put away faded Lewis. Hit Sanders (not know for his chin) over and over and couldn't get him off his feet.

[Ambling Alp II]

Doesn't matter that Vitali was a "force" for the next several years. He wasn't very good and beat a lot of guys that were worse. He would not have been a force in most other eras. Many of the guys that Ali, Holmes and others beat were better than him and some of those don't deserve even an 8.

Vitali would've absolutely been a force in any era.

What is your beef with the Klitschko's? You really seem to hate them to an obsessive degree.

Lennox past his prime beating Vitali is probably about as good a win as any past prime fighter ever got. I can't think of too many guys who have a bigger win their very last fight from any era. Can you?

Can you name a bigger LAST win than Vitali Klitschko?

A force in any era? Umm no.
He wouldn't have been near the best in the 1990s. Or the 1980s. Or the 1970s. Or the 1960s.

My beef is that they aren't treated the same as everyone else.
From Corbett to Lewis, it was always who did you beat?
From Corbett to Lewis What happened in your losses?
What abilities did you bring to the table?

With the Klitschkos, it all about excuses and WBS title defenses against weak compeittion.
Most guys lose their last fight and quit. Your comparison with Lewis is just silly. Again, we always have to use arguments to prop them up.
Lewis fought many fighters better than Klitschko.

It's not just me who think the Klitschkos are grossly overrated.
If you go back on boxrec, you will find people ripping them all the time on the Boxing History. Most of those people are long gone.
However look at how bad Tyson beat Wlad in that poll. Should tell you something. A lot of people don't post a lot but read a lot of post. They overwhelming voted for Tyson, whom most people (including me) despise.

[margaret thatcher]

he loves him some klit doesnt he, cant get enough

[DrDuke]

I bet Vitali raped Alpy's dog, whie Wlad was watching over.

[gilgamesh]

That last rant is the equivalent of somebody saying Stephen Curry can't shoot 3's worth a damn, and couldn't play Basketball in any other era but his own

To pretend that Vitali wouldn't have been a force in the 1980's is just plain f*cking stupid. The 1980's was a garbage era for the most part. Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick. These are not world beaters.

Now Alp I'm gonna ask again, and try to focus this time. Who has a better final win than Lennox Lewis? I'm talking about ever throughout Boxing history. Which boxer ever, went out on a bigger win than that?

I legit can't think of one. Can you?

[HomicideHenry]

I think one has to go back to the bare-knuckle era to find something comparable where a Hall of Fame fighter in his last fight fought and defeated an opponent who was also Hall of Fame caliber. Perhaps Tom Cribb, where the last major fight of his career was against Tom Molineaux (he would fight exhibitions and small matches later on when he no longer declared himself the champion). Or perhaps John Morrisey when he defeated John C. Heenan.

Still, even then you would have to say Lennox Lewis beating Vitali Klitschko would be ranked ahead of those fights but the point is you have to look over a century ago to find anything comparable at heavyweight.

And yes a man nearly 6 ft 8 and 245 pounds, with great conditioning and stamina with heart and toughness who threw a high volume of punches is going to be a force at any time in heavyweight history. To say that such a heavyweight wouldn't be is to ignore reality considering that weight classes have been created or expanded upon because at some point physics works against people.

And I'm actually quite shocked to hear Alp remark that it doesn't matter what the elder Klitschko brother did as an amateur or as a kickboxer, because one must look at the entirety of one's career. The fact that Klitschko did come from a martial arts background and incorporated those odd angles into his professional boxing career was part of his success because it was angles that professional boxers did not often see.

Nowadays you have professional boxers sparring with kickboxers all the time but in that time frame it rarely ever happened. Professional fighters seldom ever cross trained with each other. I'm reminded a bit of Tyson Fury training with kickboxers when he was still with his uncle Peter.

[funso banjo baby]

For giggles.... Larry Holmes title reign:

Alfredo Evangelista- 5/10
Ossie Ocasio- 5/10
Mike Weaver- 5/10
Earnie Shavers- 7/10
Lorenzo Zanon- 5/10
Leroy Jones- 5/10
Scott LeDoux- 5/10
Muhammad Ali- 3/10
Trevor Berbick- 5/10
Leon Spinks- 5/10
Renaldo Snipes- 5/10
Gerry Cooney- 7/10
Randall Cobb- 5/10
Lucien Rodriguez- 5/10
Tim Witherspoon- 5/10
Marvis Frazier- 2/10
Scott Frank- 3/10
David Bey- 5/10
Carl Williams- 5/10
James Smith- 5/10

Average: 4.8 overall

A lot of people might be upset with me for having James Smith and Tim Witherspoon and Trevor Berbick and Mike Weaver and Leon Spinks all being "5" in worth, but my view on it is none of these guys were all in their prime because they were still green when they fought Larry Holmes.

They did not really perform much better than a lot of the other people I have rated as "5" overall. Leon Spinks never was really all that good because his career was ruined because of drug and alcohol abuse and he only became heavyweight champion because Muhammad Ali did a terrible cherry pick with him.

Cooney and Shavers are the only people in my estimation of Larry Holmes championship title run that are deserving of "7", but it is clear that after fighting Larry Holmes that Earnie Shavers quickly went on the decline as he got stopped by Tex Cobb the following year. Cooney did not have a strong resume going into the bout with Larry Holmes but Larry has been adamant for years that had anyone else been heavyweight champion at that time that Gerry Cooney would have won the heavyweight title.

Did Williams, Bey, Berbick, Snipes, or Witherspoon have better performances than these title efforts?

[Ambling Alp II]

That last rant is the equivalent of somebody saying Stephen Curry can't shoot 3's worth a damn, and couldn't play Basketball in any other era but his own

To pretend that Vitali wouldn't have been a force in the 1980's is just plain f*cking stupid. The 1980's was a garbage era for the most part. Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick. These are not world beaters.

Now Alp I'm gonna ask again, and try to focus this time. Who has a better final win than Lennox Lewis? I'm talking about ever throughout Boxing history. Which boxer ever, went out on a bigger win than that?

I legit can't think of one. Can you?

In the 1980s you had Holmes and Tyson. He wasn't remotely close to them. End of the 80s you even had Holyfield.
Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick weren't legends. They also actually beat people a lot better than anyone Vitali ever beat.

Why was Vitali better than Pinklon Thomas and Tim Witherspoon? Would love to know why. What is going to be ? He was a kickboxer? A force? A WBS title holder?

Who has better final win? Couldn't you come up with a more trivial question?
Most fighters lose their final fight. They fought too long. Frazier's final fight was with George Foreman. Marciano beat Archie Moore. Now quickly check Archie's weight to see if he is under 200.

So in your twisted logic, somehow it makes Vitali look good that he lost by a 6 round TKO to a faded Lennox Lewis? Wow.

[margaret thatcher]

That last rant is the equivalent of somebody saying Stephen Curry can't shoot 3's worth a damn, and couldn't play Basketball in any other era but his own

To pretend that Vitali wouldn't have been a force in the 1980's is just plain f*cking stupid. The 1980's was a garbage era for the most part. Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick. These are not world beaters.

Now Alp I'm gonna ask again, and try to focus this time. Who has a better final win than Lennox Lewis? I'm talking about ever throughout Boxing history. Which boxer ever, went out on a bigger win than that?

I legit can't think of one. Can you?

Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick were legends

jeezus, calm down dude

[DrDuke]

Sometimes I start to think, that he's just trolling, but no troll would have been that stubborn.

[gilgamesh]

That last rant is the equivalent of somebody saying Stephen Curry can't shoot 3's worth a damn, and couldn't play Basketball in any other era but his own

To pretend that Vitali wouldn't have been a force in the 1980's is just plain f*cking stupid. The 1980's was a garbage era for the most part. Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick. These are not world beaters.

Now Alp I'm gonna ask again, and try to focus this time. Who has a better final win than Lennox Lewis? I'm talking about ever throughout Boxing history. Which boxer ever, went out on a bigger win than that?

I legit can't think of one. Can you?

Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick were legends

jeezus, calm down dude

Yeah....I don't think I need to say anything else. This guy has flipped his lid

He's getting offended as if HE is Pinklon Thomas

He has a weird tendency to put words in my mouth that I didn't say or didn't even come close to saying.

[HomicideHenry]

Just how many people actually think Lennox Lewis was on the downside? From my recollection he was a bit like Joe Walcott in the sense that he got better as time went on. He was scheduled to face Kirk Johnson, who would have been a complete pushover which is why Lewis came in heavy, but when Johnson got injured Klitschko was the substitute. If Lewis looked like crap it was a twofold reason as to why:

1- He was totally unprepared because he was expecting a soft touch opponent who he did not take seriously at all

2- The substitute was the best opponent he had faced arguably since Evander Holyfield

It had nothing to do with Lennox Lewis being the age he was because prior to the fight with Klitschko he was as dominant as he ever was in his entire career. So I find it to be revisionist history when it comes to Alp's assessment of what went down between Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko.

Furthermore not long after this Klitschko fought Kirk Johnson and blew him away in two rounds, and said in the post fight interview, "Lennox I know you are watching and I want the rematch." And there was this period of time in which Lennox Lewis was offered 45 million to face Klitschko in the rematch which would have been the highest amount of money at that point for a heavyweight title fight, and out of the blue Lennox Lewis retired saying he had nothing more to prove.

And of course the elder Klitschko brother's next fight was for basically the vacant heavyweight title that Lennox Lewis dropped by defeating Corrie Sanders and became the new champion of the world. And it must be noted that he never lost another fight ever again, even when he retired for 4 years and came back with no tune-ups to regain the heavyweight title. To act like Vitali Klitschko was some sort of bum is one of the most ridiculous things I ever heard.

[margaret thatcher]

we have the silky smooth defensive skills of cleveland williams that would be the top today and recent generations, toney being a more accomplished cruiser than usyk for beating 1 top 15 opponent, and now vitali is turning pinky thomas, berbick, and bonecruser into legends

[gilgamesh]

we have the silky smooth defensive skills of cleveland williams that would be the top today and recent generations, toney being a more accomplished cruiser than usyk for beating 1 top 15 opponent, and now vitali is turning pinky thomas, berbick, and bonecruser into legends

Whaddya think? You figure Doug Jones could outbox Tyson Fury?

[Ambling Alp II]

Obviously it was typo about them being legends. But didn't actually beat people worth mentioning. Same with Witherspoon.

How about Tony Tucker? Was the kickboxer better than him as well?

[giacomino]

How about Lennox Lewis?

1st reign

Tony Tucker 7
Frank Bruno 7
Phil Jackson 4
Oliver McCall 6

Average 6


2nd reign

Henry Akinwande 7
Andrew Golota 8
Shannon Briggs 6
Zeljko Mavrovic 7
Evander Holyfield I 9
Evander Holyfield II 9
Michael Grant 5
Francois Botha 5
David Tua 8
Hasim Rahman 7

Average 7,1


3rd reign

Mike Tyson 6
Vitali Klitschko 8

Average 7

Tucker & Bruno I'd have as a "5", Akinwande "6", Golota "7", Mavrovic "6", Holyfield (gasp I agree with Alp) "7", Tua "7", Rahman "6", Tyson "4", Klitschko "7".

Yes. Maybe 3. I am surprised how many Lewis fans on other sites talk like he beat a prime or even near Tyson. Tyson was more than a decade past his prime and six years past getting beaten up by Holyfield when this fight took place. It was only slightly less pathetic than Holmes v Ali. Some of the same fans who rate Lewis KOing Tyson probably would laugh if somebody argued Marciano KOing Louis was significant