How would you rate Marciano if Tiger Ted Lowry got the decision?

[Controversial]

This made me think of making a thread about Floyd Mayweather Jr and the What if premise pertaining to the first bout versus Jose Luis Castillo. The fact that had Castillo been given the nod, if even by a one point SD win, then I don't see where that would've been highly disputed, and I don't see Floyd's overall status or legacy being legit affected had That Alternate and not absurdly obscene possibility occurred.

Proverbial main point being, Marciano losing a 10 round decision versus Journeyman spoiler specialist tough-guy Tiger Ted would not have effected Rocky's legacy, impact, and influence. Just as Duran's loss in his 30th pro bout to DeJesus didn't garnish Duran's legacy in the slightest bit.

I guess the difference being Castillo and DeJesus were great fighters, both held versions of world titles in their career. Of course Marciano was still pretty raw, he was unbeaten in 20 but had only been past 5 rounds once before and Lowry was very tough, experienced and durable. I don't think it would've necessarily changed things for Marciano, if he did lose you could see why and he beat him in the rematch. But I'm not sure 48-1 would've made him the big name he went on to become.

[gilgamesh]

This made me think of making a thread about Floyd Mayweather Jr and the What if premise pertaining to the first bout versus Jose Luis Castillo. The fact that had Castillo been given the nod, if even by a one point SD win, then I don't see where that would've been highly disputed, and I don't see Floyd's overall status or legacy being legit affected had That Alternate and not absurdly obscene possibility occured.

Should I make this LiL reply comment of mine into A separate thread topic then..?!
Nahhh. Why bother..?!
Proverbial main point being, Marciano losing a 10 round decision versus Journeyman spoiler specialist tough-guy Tiger Ted would not have effected Rocky's legacy, impact, and influence. Just as Duran's loss in his 30th pro bout to DeJesus didn't garnish Duran's legacy in the slightest bit.
Rocky Marciano to me is not some lucky boxer that happened to go 49-0.
He Farrrrr Transcends that minoot detail.

When I think of Rocky Marciano I think of Grit, Tenacity, Balls of Steel, Fearlessness, and an inner drive that exceeds even the highest levels of mere powerful ferocity. Rocky was the epitome of the fierce willingness to go out on his shield even if being pounded from corner to corner against an unbeatable adversary/opponent.

Floyd losing to Castillo would've altered his career and life dramatically. He'd probably be about $500 Million dollars poorer right now if that would've happened.

[Perseus]

This made me think of making a thread about Floyd Mayweather Jr and the What if premise pertaining to the first bout versus Jose Luis Castillo. The fact that had Castillo been given the nod, if even by a one point SD win, then I don't see where that would've been highly disputed, and I don't see Floyd's overall status or legacy being legit affected had That Alternate and not absurdly obscene possibility occured.

Should I make this LiL reply comment of mine into A separate thread topic then..?!
Nahhh. Why bother..?!
Proverbial main point being, Marciano losing a 10 round decision versus Journeyman spoiler specialist tough-guy Tiger Ted would not have effected Rocky's legacy, impact, and influence. Just as Duran's loss in his 30th pro bout to DeJesus didn't garnish Duran's legacy in the slightest bit.
Rocky Marciano to me is not some lucky boxer that happened to go 49-0.
He Farrrrr Transcends that minoot detail.

When I think of Rocky Marciano I think of Grit, Tenacity, Balls of Steel, Fearlessness, and an inner drive that exceeds even the highest levels of mere powerful ferocity. Rocky was the epitome of the fierce willingness to go out on his shield even if being pounded from corner to corner against an unbeatable adversary/opponent.

Floyd losing to Castillo would've altered his career and life dramatically. He'd probably be about $500 Million dollars poorer right now if that would've happened.

I doubt it.
Floyd gave him a rematch and won handily.
If he doesn't get the decision the first time the rematch still happens Floyd still beats him handily.
Then there is a rubber match which Floyd almost certainly wins easily.
Now he's the boxer who has beaten everyone he's ever been in the ring with and the loss is viewed as a fluke.
Floyd is still going to be an HBO fighter, still going to be at or near the top of every p4p ranking, still destroys the ultra-popular Gatti, still becomes the top welterweight, HBO still wants DLH vs Mayweather.
After beating Oscar he still goes on Dancing With the Stars getting mainstream exposure from that show, still beats Hatton, still does the talk show circuit and WWE, still has the Mosley, Cotto, Canelo and Pac fights.
Only things that really change are Floyd has a 1 in the loss column and Castillo is in the hall of fame.

[HomicideHenry]

I tend to agree with Gilgamesh on Floyd Mayweather because he was so disliked by so many people that the appeal of him was who was possibly out there who could beat him since he kept bragging about the undefeated record.

It's why so many people tuned into watch Muhammad Ali for a long time because even though he was the most hated figure in all of sports at one point people wanted to see if anyone could kick his butt.

Had he lost to Castillo or to De La Hoya or to Pacquiao he would not be held in the same esteem that he is at this moment. If he made a comeback and lost and became 50-1-0, it would be blamed entirely on him being an old man and he would still be held in high regard because in his peak nobody could really beat him.

For the record I think he was gifted decisions over Castillo and De La Hoya and I can't stand Oscar one bit. Mayweather sure didn't fancy a rematch. And for my money I don't think Mayweather would have made it in the 1980s or early 1990s with guys like Pernell Whitaker and Julio Cesar Chavez and of course Thomas Hearns and Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran and Marvin Hagler being around.

I'm reminded of a meme I saw with Ray Leonard and Tommy Hearns laughing with the caption being: "Mayweather brags about shoulder rolls when we learned that in the amateurs," which is part of the reason why I was so aggravated with so many people not being able to defeat him because stylistically he was doing nothing that was extraordinary. Then again most of the people he fought in his career were headhunters who did not have an overall game.

And of course he benefited greatly from being able to dictate virtually every aspect of the match just like Ray Leonard was able to dictate every aspect of his match with Marvin Hagler. The only time he ever made concessions was when he boxed Conor McGregor and that was because he knew that he could be as sloppy as he wanted to be and still beat the UFC fighter without any real issues or problems.

[Perseus]

One official loss that was easily avenged in rematches was not going to change his career path, his personality or fans desire to see someone shut him up.
HBO and DLH were still going to come calling.

The DLH/Mayweather decision was correct and I was a huge DLH fan.

[Ambling Alp II]

If Mayweather would not have got the silly decision that he got against Castillo, he would be ranked much lower. Winning the rematch wouldn't have helped much.

The De La Hoya fight was not a gift, though MDLH was past his best and Mayweather was not impressive.

[gilgamesh]

This made me think of making a thread about Floyd Mayweather Jr and the What if premise pertaining to the first bout versus Jose Luis Castillo. The fact that had Castillo been given the nod, if even by a one point SD win, then I don't see where that would've been highly disputed, and I don't see Floyd's overall status or legacy being legit affected had That Alternate and not absurdly obscene possibility occured.

Should I make this LiL reply comment of mine into A separate thread topic then..?!
Nahhh. Why bother..?!
Proverbial main point being, Marciano losing a 10 round decision versus Journeyman spoiler specialist tough-guy Tiger Ted would not have effected Rocky's legacy, impact, and influence. Just as Duran's loss in his 30th pro bout to DeJesus didn't garnish Duran's legacy in the slightest bit.
Rocky Marciano to me is not some lucky boxer that happened to go 49-0.
He Farrrrr Transcends that minoot detail.

When I think of Rocky Marciano I think of Grit, Tenacity, Balls of Steel, Fearlessness, and an inner drive that exceeds even the highest levels of mere powerful ferocity. Rocky was the epitome of the fierce willingness to go out on his shield even if being pounded from corner to corner against an unbeatable adversary/opponent.

Floyd losing to Castillo would've altered his career and life dramatically. He'd probably be about $500 Million dollars poorer right now if that would've happened.

I doubt it.
Floyd gave him a rematch and won handily.
If he doesn't get the decision the first time the rematch still happens Floyd still beats him handily.
Then there is a rubber match which Floyd almost certainly wins easily.
Now he's the boxer who has beaten everyone he's ever been in the ring with and the loss is viewed as a fluke.
Floyd is still going to be an HBO fighter, still going to be at or near the top of every p4p ranking, still destroys the ultra-popular Gatti, still becomes the top welterweight, HBO still wants DLH vs Mayweather.
After beating Oscar he still goes on Dancing With the Stars getting mainstream exposure from that show, still beats Hatton, still does the talk show circuit and WWE, still has the Mosley, Cotto, Canelo and Pac fights.
Only things that really change are Floyd has a 1 in the loss column and Castillo is in the hall of fame.

I'm not saying he doesn't get big fights still. I'm not saying his career would've been over.

But do you think he'd make say 40 Million dollars to fight Andre Berto without that 0? Because I think sure, he might've still fought Berto, but he would've made more like 3 or 4 Million Dollars.

Being the Undefeated Floyd Mayweather is what made him so valuable.

His style would never have made him a draw alone. He needed the undefeated record, and the personality.

Up until HBO 24/7, and fighting Oscar De La Hoya. He was virtually unknown to all except Hardcore Boxing fans.

If he loses to Castillo, IMO he never gets to fight De La Hoya. Because it's not as if De La Hoya didn't have A LOT of other fish to fry. If Floyd isn't undefeated Oscar probably has a bigger option in 2007.

[pound per pound]

I think it goes without saying that if Marciano's record goes from 49-0 to 48-1 his standing in history changes dramatically.

The same way If Marciano lost to Layne.

[gilgamesh]

I think it goes without saying that if Marciano's record goes from 49-0 to 48-1 his standing in history changes dramatically.

The same way If Marciano lost to Layne.

Yes indeed. Any loss would've altered the legacy, and overall standing in history dramatically.

[Ambling Alp II]

The kind of loss would matter. If Marciano himself would have got ripped off by a decision, it wouldn't hurt him as much. Or if it was very early in his career. A loss in his prime and/or devastating ko loss is another story.

People that really know the sport know that statistics in boxing are often very deceiving.

[Perseus]

Winning the rematch would have made him the top lightweight.
Yeah, that wouldn't help at all
Moving up and destroying Gatti gives him a title in third weight class.
Moving to welter and becoming the top guy there makes it four weight classes.
With HBO in his corner every step along the way..
He absolutely would have been at or near the top of every p4p list.

Name this bigger fish attracting the attention of DLH in 2007.
We know Oscar wasn't going near anyone with Top Rank.
At that point in his career he absolutely was not going to fight Cotto, Margarito, Williams, Winky, a middleweight...
Don't prove you're a moron by saying Tito.
Oscar could have done that one at almost anytime after 2004 but chose other paths.
Who was this better option, aligned with HBO that DLH was actually going to get in the ring with??

[gilgamesh]

The kind of loss would matter. If Marciano himself would have got ripped off by a decision, it wouldn't hurt him as much. Or if it was very early in his career. A loss in his prime and/or devastating ko loss is another story.

People that really know the sport know that statistics in boxing are often very deceiving.

Castillo got ripped off against Mayweather, and Castillo is not in the Hall of Fame.

If that win is official, he probably gets in.

So yes, even a robbery can affect the way people look at you. Even when you should've won it.

[margaret thatcher]

of course the official result matters with these famous unbeaten records

[gilgamesh]

of course the official result matters with these famous unbeaten records

Indeed. Alp was implying history would've been forgiving of Marciano as if he hadn't lost if say it was an unjust loss, but honestly it just doesn't work that way.

As time goes on, the official result outweighs the truth.

Back in 2002. It was probably 90% of the people thought Castillo won to 10% for Mayweather.

Now it's probably more like 50/50 because people won't take the time to actually watch it, they just read about it, and they want the story to be what they want it to be.

[margaret thatcher]

look at how much talk about marciano revolves around the record, it's a huge part of his legacy, ridiculous to act like the 0 doesnt matter much if we're talking general public perception

just look at how contemporaneous ratings are done, official results almost always play a factor regardless of how people saw the fight itself. jack catteral didnt enter anywhere near most p4p lists for losing to josh taylor even though most saw him as a clear winner for instance

unbeaten records have become progressively more important in boxing too, probably for the worst

[Controversial]

I just looked this up in the Ring magazine, they only wrote a short paragraph but it differs to the other newspaper that reported Lowry winning. The January 1950 edition of the Ring wrote the below...

"The 10th of the month brought one of the greatest heavyweight prospects in the country back to Providence as Rocky Marciano, the Brockton Bombshell, took on Tiger Ted Lowry of New Haven. Lowry was not interested in winning the fight. He wanted to go the route and that is what he did by hanging on and staying close all the way. He tagged Marciano with several right-hand uppercuts, but they didn’t slow down the big guy from Brockton. By actual count, Marciano landed better than 750 punches to the body ,over the ten-round course as he won a unanimous decision. Rocky suffered a cut eye in the fight."

[gilgamesh]

Would've dropped him out of the all time Heavyweight Top 5, but probably not out of the Top 10. Though it may have affected when he got a title shot as well or if he would've been content to call it a career after 49 bouts.

1 result changes, possibly a lot of things change.

[Expug]

I’d probably rank him the same actually.
Lowry was a tough journeyman who fought everyone.
He was only stopped a couple times in about 150 fights. It would be a learning experience if Tiger got the nod and Rocky came back and beat him more decisively in their rematch.
I might actually look at him more positively if it happened that way.
I’m always skeptical of glossy undefeated records anyhow.

[robbydecker]

And it really depends on who is judging the fights to be honest. Some judges prefer actual boxing while other judges prefer aggressive fighters. It's one of those fights that will be a mystery cuz there is no film on it so nobody can make their own judgments.

The only thing I know about Ted Lowry was in that special edition of Ring Magazine talking about the 100 greatest punchers of all time that there was a section on each fighter called, "the guy they couldn't knock out," and Ted Lowry was that guy for Rocky Marciano.

I still have that somewhere in my house but from my recollection they said that it couldn't really be held against Marciano because several other men like Jersey Joe Walcott went the distance with Ted Lowry as well. So he must have been something special in his own right even if he was never a contender.

He probably was one of those type of guys that made everybody look like crap even if he was on the losing end. Even if you won it gave the impression that you still lost somehow with certain fighters and I imagine in that era Ted Lowry was that kind of guy.

Making everyone he fights Look Like Crap.

A more modern example of that type of boxer(Someone that loses and the other boxer doesn't do good in the fight) would be "Marion Wilson".

In 1994 he fought "Ray Mercer" and it looked like he should've been given the decision in that bout, but the judging was quite skewed and Mercer was essentially given a Gift Draw.

Likewise, Tommy Morrison fought against Ross Purity on that same card/same day and he also was essentially given a Gift Draw. Tommy was decked twice in that bout, and the other sections of the bout were basically even, so Purity Should've been given the decision win.

"Marion Wilson" was 7-14 going into that bout with "Ray Mercer".

"Ross Purity" was something like 22-10 going into that bout with "Tommy Morrison".

"Ben Serrano" was 4-9 going into his bout versus "Doug DeWitt" and "Serrano" won that bout by a decision.
The judges could've judged it a Gift Draw on DeWitt's behalf.
DeWitt wasn't regarded as a future top contender at that point in time apparently.

I've redd about the Sugar Ray Leonard bout that he had versus Randy Shields in 1978 and unfortunately there is no footage of that bout to view.
According to what I redd(Shield's recollections with that bout being very similar to they're 1973 amateur bout), that bout could've apparently been ruled a Draw, without much dispute.
Likewise, Shields definitely could've been given a Draw for his effort against Cuevas. That much is actually quite obvious if one watches that bout.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not sure where this is coming from. Never heard anywhere that the Leonard-Shields fight was even that close.

[robbydecker]

Not sure where this is coming from. Never heard anywhere that the Leonard-Shields fight was even that close.

It was in a boxing magazine, Way back in the early 1980's, during an interview with "Randy Shields".

He described the big build up for they're pro bout in 1978 and how Leonard's Sister Sung the National Anthem before the bout.
He referenced to they're 1973 amateur bout, and alluded to his personal assessment of they're 1978 pro bout as being basically a 10 round replay version of they're 3 round amateur bout(Which Shields had been given the decision win).
Leonard himself in an interview emphasized that Shields was a very difficult opponent and in a low key manner emphasized that There Was Definitive Frustration while fighting Shields in that 10 round pro bout in 1978.

Leonard stated, That Shields was like fighting some sort of Very Angular Awkward Phantom like opponent (Not the exact words but something to that effect, when I recollect what he(Leonard) was describing).
Yes, believe me, I can only take all of that with a mere grain of salt, because it's extremely difficult to picture Shields apparently giving Leonard fits, but I'll also strongly assume that Leonard was having one of them very off kilter type of days.
Benitez beat Shields pretty easily. Got the Tko actually. As did Pete Ranzany of all fighters. Tko11 over Shields, yet Cuevas Destroyed Ranzany and Shields looked like he fought Cuevas to a Draw.

Jimmy Haier gave Duran a very tough tune up bout but he was decisioned by Ranzany.
So much footage of very interesting boxing bouts has somehow disappeared off the face of the earth.
So unfortunate for very inquisitive boxing fans.
Ever see the Sugar Ray Leonard- Marcus Geraldo bout..?
That was an extremely grueling bout for Leonard.
Geraldo even went the 10 round distance against Hagler.
Yet he was destroyed in one round by Hearns.
Boxing is so Fascinating.

[Controversial]

Ray said in an interview that the Shields fight was very tough, not sure how close it was but the fight report in Ring Magazine said they both got a standing ovation and there was "tension in the air" waiting for the decision.

[Ambling Alp II]

AP have Leonard winning by 5 points. Again, with all the criticism that Leonard gets on here, I would have thought I would have heard this one before.

[gilgamesh]

He would've lost the points he got for a victory over Ted Lowry, and instead would've had a loss on his record. So it would've been a 15 point swing or so with my system.

So he would've dropped 1 notch on the all time list below Lennox Lewis. It really wouldn't have affected his legacy a whole lot, just would've affected the mythology of him.

You do always have to wonder though if he's not undefeated then does he get that title shot with Walcott or is someone else chosen? So it could've affected his career in that sense. We'll never know though obviously cuz it didn't happen that way.

[Boxingguru75]

Fun subject could just open it to all great fighters. Wouldn’t change much. He was a dominate champion. There are moments of luck and moments of robbery but doesn’t change a fighters greatness. Pernell Whitaker only getting a draw with the still great Chavez was a robbery in massive proportion. Ali was fortunate in all three Ken Norton fights. Norton matched up wrong for him. Lomachenko might have been the most unlucky - easy argue he beat or should have won by dq against Salido, argue Teo was a draw 6-6 even though he fought with one arm, and few think he lost to Haney when he put on a master class versus a much bigger fighter. Can argue same for Pernell. Beat Chavez and easily could have gotten a close decision against Delahoya. Delahoya should have got decision against the great Trinidad. Nothing in my book takes away from the greatness of these fighters.