Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

[goose 5]

What are the board's opinions ?

[gilgamesh]

Yes, it was fixed. As surely as Fire is Hot. As surely as the Grass is Green.

No, Ali had nothing to do with it.

Many theories about why Liston took a dive.

1. He was afraid someone was going to attempt to Assassinate Ali, and he didn't want to be in the ring and catch a bullet that was meant for Ali

2. He was afraid of the Black Muslims that Ali surrounded himself with, and didn't want any trouble with them.

3. He owed the Mafia a favor.

It was probably one of those 3 things. You can look at the footage and see that Ali himself is as taken aback and annoyed by Liston's flop to the mat as anyone in the building.

Also I'm pretty sure we've discussed this long beaten to death subject before.

[Ezzard]

Also...

Story is that Liston got himself into incredible shape for the rematch. He wanted the title back. But there was a postponement due to Ali getting injured in training. Liston just couldn't drag himself up for it again and approached the fight as if he wasn't going to win.

[DrDuke]

Liston was a horrible actor, while Walcott was a horrible referee, so it was easy to expose a fix. Ali didn't seem to be involved.

[HomicideHenry]

There is the other side of the equation that the nation of islam put the screws to Sonny Liston. I'm reminded of Jim Brown swearing up and down that Herbert Muhammad wanted no part of Muhammad Ali fighting Wilt Chamberlain because he was genuinely concerned that Muhammad Ali could do nothing with somebody over 7 ft tall.

[keithmoonhangover]

No. Genuine punch landed on the button. Liston didn't see it coming. Caught cold. Struggled to get up. Bad refereeing. Fleischer should have been ignored.

[DrDuke]

No. Genuine punch landed on the button. Liston didn't see it coming. Caught cold. Struggled to get up. Bad refereeing. Fleischer should have been ignored.

Struggled to struggle, while the ref suddenly presented few seconds more. Maybe Sonny would have received his Oscar, if not that unexpected trick of Walcott.

[Ezzard]

A punch landed. Maybe it caused a flash KD. I can't say one way or the other.

Bu everything after that is clearly nonsense. Walcott was not in on anything I don't think.

[keithmoonhangover]

No. Genuine punch landed on the button. Liston didn't see it coming. Caught cold. Struggled to get up. Bad refereeing. Fleischer should have been ignored.

Struggled to struggle, while the ref suddenly presented few seconds more. Maybe Sonny would have received his Oscar, if not that unexpected trick of Walcott.

If a boxer throws a fight by knockout, they either go down and stay down or get up just after the count.

Ali landed a one off punch, like Nunn did against Kalambay,

[DrDuke]

No. Genuine punch landed on the button. Liston didn't see it coming. Caught cold. Struggled to get up. Bad refereeing. Fleischer should have been ignored.

Struggled to struggle, while the ref suddenly presented few seconds more. Maybe Sonny would have received his Oscar, if not that unexpected trick of Walcott.

If a boxer throws a fight by knockout, they either go down and stay down or get up just after the count.

Ali landed a one off punch, like Nunn did against Kalambay,

The punch didn't seem to carry a lot of power. If Liston could roll on the floor better, it would be possible to believe, but he was a sh1t of a performer.

[Seamus]

Liston knew he couldn't beat Clay, took a dive and then for whatever reason changed his mind and got back up. I believe that 1st fight took a big toll psychologically on Liston.

[DrDuke]

Liston knew he couldn't beat Clay, took a dive and then for whatever reason changed his mind and got back up. I believe that 1st fight took a big toll psychologically on Liston.

He didn't change his mind, he just was confused, as he didn't expect Walcott to make a mistake and thus to give him more time.

[Controversial]

It all looked suss to me. A punch definitely landed but not sure about the way Liston reacted. It wasn’t a knockout punch in terms of flattening Liston, the explanation seems to be it scrambled his senses but I can’t think of many times that’s happened without the downed fighter looking genuinely hurt. Liston didn’t look genuinely hurt to me.

[wouter]

No it wasn't fixed. Liston went down legitimately but quit. A bit like Douglas vs Holyfield. He would have stayed down for the count, had there actually been a count.

[Controversial]

No it wasn't fixed. Liston went down legitimately but quit. A bit like Douglas vs Holyfield. He would have stayed down for the count, had there actually been a count.

The Holyfield punch was a solid one though and Douglas did look hurt, the way he was breathing heavy as he lay on the canvas showed the effect it had on him. It was the same punch he hurt Tyson with, he steps back and counters with the right hand. Ali was moving backwards so didn’t even get his weight into it, of course these can still hurt but Ali rarely hurt anyone with one punch let alone stop them. Liston didn’t look genuinely hurt to me or unsteady.

[keithmoonhangover]

Liston knew he couldn't beat Clay, took a dive and then for whatever reason changed his mind and got back up. I believe that 1st fight took a big toll psychologically on Liston.

He didn't change his mind, he just was confused, as he didn't expect Walcott to make a mistake and thus to give him more time.

Which irrefutable facts do you have to go with your theory? I have a heavyweight champion landing a clean right on his opponent in the first round of a fight.

[gilgamesh]

Liston knew he couldn't beat Clay, took a dive and then for whatever reason changed his mind and got back up. I believe that 1st fight took a big toll psychologically on Liston.

He knew he had been down way longer than 10 seconds, and thought. This sh*t is surely over right? By the time he stood up I'd imagine.

[gilgamesh]

No. Genuine punch landed on the button. Liston didn't see it coming. Caught cold. Struggled to get up. Bad refereeing. Fleischer should have been ignored.

It's stunning to me that anyone ever questions that this was a dive. Liston gives the worst acting performance in the history of boxing on the mat. Getting up to a knee, and then flopping back over from a punch that couldn't have knocked me down when I was drunk.

Ali is a great fighter. It's not a crime to admit that this fight was a fix.

It is however ridiculous to suggest it's not. Its like seeing somebody shoot somebody on film 6 times in the chest, and then you're the jury at their Murder trial and you say "I need more evidence" NO YOU DON'T. It's all right there.

[keithmoonhangover]

No. Genuine punch landed on the button. Liston didn't see it coming. Caught cold. Struggled to get up. Bad refereeing. Fleischer should have been ignored.

It's stunning to me that anyone ever questions that this was a dive. Liston gives the worst acting performance in the history of boxing on the mat. Getting up to a knee, and then flopping back over from a punch that couldn't have knocked me down when I was drunk.

Ali is a great fighter. It's not a crime to admit that this fight was a fix.

It is however ridiculous to suggest it's not. Its like seeing somebody shoot somebody on film 6 times in the chest, and then you're the jury at their Murder trial and you say "I need more evidence" NO YOU DON'T. It's all right there.

There is zero evidence. If there is, present it to the judge.

[gilgamesh]

No. Genuine punch landed on the button. Liston didn't see it coming. Caught cold. Struggled to get up. Bad refereeing. Fleischer should have been ignored.

It's stunning to me that anyone ever questions that this was a dive. Liston gives the worst acting performance in the history of boxing on the mat. Getting up to a knee, and then flopping back over from a punch that couldn't have knocked me down when I was drunk.

Ali is a great fighter. It's not a crime to admit that this fight was a fix.

It is however ridiculous to suggest it's not. Its like seeing somebody shoot somebody on film 6 times in the chest, and then you're the jury at their Murder trial and you say "I need more evidence" NO YOU DON'T. It's all right there.

There is zero evidence. If there is, present it to the judge.

The fight is the evidence. I described what the smoking gun is.

If you don't see it, it's because you're willfully blind to the obvious.

Why? I'm sure I don't care. But it's impossible to not see it with functioning eyes.

[Caractacus]

I think this was like one of the first questions ever asked on the Boxrec Forum.
BTW How long ago was that ?

[keithmoonhangover]

It's stunning to me that anyone ever questions that this was a dive. Liston gives the worst acting performance in the history of boxing on the mat. Getting up to a knee, and then flopping back over from a punch that couldn't have knocked me down when I was drunk.

Ali is a great fighter. It's not a crime to admit that this fight was a fix.

It is however ridiculous to suggest it's not. Its like seeing somebody shoot somebody on film 6 times in the chest, and then you're the jury at their Murder trial and you say "I need more evidence" NO YOU DON'T. It's all right there.

There is zero evidence. If there is, present it to the judge.

The fight is the evidence. I described what the smoking gun is.

If you don't see it, it's because you're willfully blind to the obvious.

Why? I'm sure I don't care. But it's impossible to not see it with functioning eyes.

The fight isn't evidence at all. A clean punch is landed and the guy goes down. They are the facts, the rest is just opinion I'm afraid.

[Controversial]

There is zero evidence. If there is, present it to the judge.

The fight is the evidence. I described what the smoking gun is.

If you don't see it, it's because you're willfully blind to the obvious.

Why? I'm sure I don't care. But it's impossible to not see it with functioning eyes.

The fight isn't evidence at all. A clean punch is landed and the guy goes down. They are the facts, the rest is just opinion I'm afraid.

Do you think Seldon took a dive against Tyson?

[margaret thatcher]

i dont think he was legitiamtely layed out..........my hunch is that he got caught with a surprise shot for what was more of a flash kd, but it shattered whatever confidence he had left after ali beat him the first time and that he stayed down intentionally, when physically he would've been well capable to continue

i can certainly see why people find it suspicious though , i dont think it's ridiculous to question it

[HomicideHenry]

The only fight I ever seen Mike Tyson be in that I will always believe is suspicious was when he knocked out Clifford Ettienne, because the moment that man hit the canvas he physically removed his own mouthpiece and just laid there. If you are legitimately knocked out you are too stupid to do anything like that.