James Toney: Man On Fire

The_Don · Post by **The_Don** » 23 Aug 2006, 05:05

http://www.frankmaloney.com/html/module ... le&sid=179

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Aug 2006, 05:31

I've been collecting a lot of Toney, too. I like his non title 160 and 168-lb fights, shows what a busy and talented guy he was at one time.

I even watched him in lovely copies vs Terry McGroom and Terry Porter. I must be a maniac.

Toney is what, 270-lbs now. I will still look forward to him vs Peter as he does the slip and counter very well, albeit increasingly lazy. But I won't hold my breath.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Aug 2006, 06:59

If Toney is in halfway good shape then he should beat Peter quite clearly... Peter is strong but has poor technique and poor stamina... Toney despite his ballooning weight still has some nice moves and a great chin, but I cant help thinking when ever I watch him fight what a waste of talent he is... him and Camacho should start a club together...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Aug 2006, 08:17

Eddie Futch v James Toney, isn't that a bit unfair, poor old Eddie must have been in his 70's!

I hope Toney isn't on fire, could take months to put the blaze out.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 23 Aug 2006, 09:36

Read on the current scene Toney told boxingtalk his weight is around 270. He may be messing around but if its true he is not going to beat Peter. Look how slow and out of condition he was against Rahman at around 235.

Surely he can't be that heavy?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Aug 2006, 10:21

If he comes in at 270 he's just taking the piss.... he shouldnt even be a heavyweight at all... he's just fat...

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 23 Aug 2006, 10:35

He should be fighting at 200 max the lazy pudendum.

At 270 he would be 110lbs over the weight of his first world title. Thats almost 8 stone!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Aug 2006, 10:40

Is it just me or is Toneys speech scrambled these days... in some recent interviews you need an interpreter to tell you what he's saying, yet I was shocked watching some of his early middleweight fights recently when in the post fight interviews his speech is a whole lot different... he also seems a lot calmer... can't help thinking that the guys taken too many shots to the head...

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 23 Aug 2006, 11:03

silkov wrote:he also seems a lot calmer...

Roid rage.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Aug 2006, 11:08

nickd wrote:
silkov wrote:he also seems a lot calmer...
Roid rage.

I was thinking about that myself too... makes you wonder...

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 23 Aug 2006, 11:10

silkov wrote:
nickd wrote:
silkov wrote:he also seems a lot calmer...
Roid rage.
I was thinking about that myself too... makes you wonder...

Well he was caught! And since then has just piled on weight presumably he has stopped now??

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Aug 2006, 11:21

nickd wrote:
silkov wrote:
nickd wrote: Roid rage.
I was thinking about that myself too... makes you wonder...
Well he was caught! And since then has just piled on weight presumably he has stopped now??

My guess is that even being a mega-fatso it would take more than mere food to build up Toney to what he is now... Wondered about Tyson as well... see the difference in his physique from his title days in 80s and the mid-90s... could explain the uncontrolled rages and feats of cannibalism as well!... my guess is there is a lot of it about in boxing which is why you see fighters going up in weight yet not putting on any extra fat lke fighters moving up in the past did... the way certain fighters are 'cut' today, they may as well hang a notice round their necks imo...

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 23 Aug 2006, 11:45

Toney is going to get literally punched around the ring when he fights Peter. He hasn't impressed me since fighting at HW. Sure he beat Ruiz on steroids and gave Rahman some trouble but lost in most peoples books, but we all know how good Hashim is..

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Aug 2006, 12:43

There has always been speculation about Tyson abusing steroids even early in his career.

At his peak he was about 205 lbs in weight, and he looked to have a natural physique back then. when he came out of jail he was really ripped and stacked with muscles with a bulging 6 pack and huge pecs.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 23 Aug 2006, 13:42

Check out Toney's physique in his fight with Ramon Garbey (Terry its worth the wait!) he looks like a proper bodybuilder with huge delts and traps

Undoubtedly he used roids to put on size but you can't get the skills, heart and attitude Toney has out of the end of a syringe!

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 23 Aug 2006, 14:41

mercman wrote:
My guess is that even being a mega-fatso it would take more than mere food to build up Toney to what he is now... Wondered about Tyson as well... see the difference in his physique from his title days in 80s and the mid-90s... could explain the uncontrolled rages and feats of cannibalism as well!... my guess is there is a lot of it about in boxing which is why you see fighters going up in weight yet not putting on any extra fat lke fighters moving up in the past did... the way certain fighters are 'cut' today, they may as well hang a notice round their necks imo...
Exactly. I believe the abuse of steroids is widespread in boxing today especially in the heavier weight categories. Toney is a prime example. I believe Briggs is too. I also agree about Tyson. When he came out of prison (after his sentence for rape) he was about 180 - 190lbs. This probably somewhere near his natural bodyweight.

Dont talk daft, 180lbs.

Ive met Tyson twice, and His frame is huge. He has size 14 feet for christ sake.

His hands are massive, his shoulders very wide. Hell even his teeth are oversized.

Tyson weight 190 when he was 14.

Compare Tysons physique to Holyfields, then decide who was more likely to take steroids.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Aug 2006, 15:03

KO Artist wrote:
mercman wrote:
My guess is that even being a mega-fatso it would take more than mere food to build up Toney to what he is now... Wondered about Tyson as well... see the difference in his physique from his title days in 80s and the mid-90s... could explain the uncontrolled rages and feats of cannibalism as well!... my guess is there is a lot of it about in boxing which is why you see fighters going up in weight yet not putting on any extra fat lke fighters moving up in the past did... the way certain fighters are 'cut' today, they may as well hang a notice round their necks imo...
Exactly. I believe the abuse of steroids is widespread in boxing today especially in the heavier weight categories. Toney is a prime example. I believe Briggs is too. I also agree about Tyson. When he came out of prison (after his sentence for rape) he was about 180 - 190lbs. This probably somewhere near his natural bodyweight.
Dont talk daft, 180lbs.

Ive met Tyson twice, and His frame is huge. He has size 14 feet for christ sake.

His hands are massive, his shoulders very wide. Hell even his teeth are oversized.

Tyson weight 190 when he was 14.

Compare Tysons physique to Holyfields, then decide who was more likely to take steroids.

Look at Tyson in 80s and then in mid 90s... look at his behaviour... speaks for itself I think... why was he so 'well developed' at such an early age... especially when he was known as a 'runt' a few years before...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Aug 2006, 16:13

Liston had huge shoulders but Tyson was more thickset, the figures speak for themselves.

LISTON
Height 6' 1
Weight 215
Reach 84
Chest/Norm. 44
Chest/Exp. 46 1/2
Waist 33
Biceps 16 1/2
Neck 17 1/2
Wrist 8 1/2
Calf 16
Ankle 12
Thigh 25 1/2
Fist 15
Forearm 14 1/2

Tyson

5-11½
218
REach 71
Chest 43
Chest expanded 45
Waist 34
Biceps 16
Neck 19¾
Wrist 8
Calf 18
Ankle 11
Thigh 27
Fist 13
Forearm 14

As these stats show, Tyson had a bigger frame than Liston from the waist down. As these muscle groups are the largest in the human body (glutes, quads) this could easily account for them weighing the same.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 23 Aug 2006, 17:17

The freakiest thing about Liston was his reach - 84 inches at 6'1??! Its no wonder his jab was one of the best in history. That is an awesome wingspan.

Compare that with Tyson's at a meagre 71" - it becomes obvious now why Tyson's quick feet and excellent head and body movement were so crucial to his style being successful.

I dont accept these theories that Tyson is some blown up fighter - watch documentaries about his youth (there is enough of them) he was a 200lb man-child in his early teens. His thighs are huge, his waist thickset and his shoulders like cannonballs. His neck is also a give away when assessing his freakish build.

Latterly he may well have used steroids to try and regain what he had in his youth, but the 18 - 25yr old version was a natural phenom, have no doubts about that.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Aug 2006, 18:33

Yes Liston's reach was huge, I wonder though how much of his reach was his massive shoulders, reach can be misleading as it doesn't neccesarily mean you've got very long arms, though In liston's case I think it did, as he was described as having arms like a gorilla by opponents.

Liston had the largest hands of any heavyweight champ in history, including the massive primo carnera and Vitali K, not sure about Valuev, surely Nikolia must have the biggest fists surely. Liston had to have his gloves specially made for him because standard sizes simply wouldn't accomodate his huge wrecking ball fists.

Valuev's reach is only 1 inch more than Listons!

Tyson was a fantastic physical specimen as a 20 year old. Not only was he powerful, quick and explosive, but he was remarkably flexible, which is where a lot of his power came from, the tremendous extension he got on his shots and the way he could dip way to the side and then explode from that position with a hook/uppercut/hook combination with the one hand.

exmuslim · Post by **exmuslim** » 24 Aug 2006, 10:06

Liston had a smashing jab and used it often and precisely. He had power in both hands, but like Lewis, he had a considerable reach advantage over all his opponents (except Ali who almost matched him at 83``) so he made the most of his natural gifts. Why not use the reach advantage wisely if you have it and out jab your foe?

Lewis also out jabbed just about everyone he fought (with the possible exception of Mercer).
Tyson had the shortest reach of any champion since Marciano so he had to use the head movement and leaping left hook a lot.
Despite being being the superior fighter (at that stage), Lewis would not have beaten Tyson without using that long smashing jab as much as he did. The only round Lewis lost was the first round when he tried to slug it out. As soon as he went to jabbing in the second round, Lewis took control of the fight easily.
The fights that Tyson lost (before age caught uo with him), against Douglas and Holyfield he was outjabbed consistently. (though Holyfield tied him up a lot too and showed a superb left hook too)

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Aug 2006, 10:10

Yes, good reading of those fights. Douglas not only used the jab extensively, he was landing it as a straight hard shot, not a flicking foil to keep Tyson off balance. He speared mike with it again and again, and backed it up with hard right hand, left hook combinations as Tyson tried to get under it. I'd love to see the punch stats for that fight, because Douglas seemed to be throwing a hell of a lot of leather. He must have been in great physical shape, because he had to maintain that pace for many rounds to beat the fight out of Tyson, and even then had to recover from that massive uppercut which felled him. To recover as he did in the next round was testament to his physical and mental strength that night.

Lewis struggled with Mercer because Mercer was able to land his own short jab and time Lewis dragging him into a fight on his terms. It was a great performance by Mercer and he came close to beating Lewis that night.