Tyson Fury vs Riddick Bowe

[DrDuke]

When Wilder landed with something, Fury went down.

It seems you were too busy with mastubating on the Ali posters, while trying to watch the Fury-Wilder fights, especially the second one.

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh, the second fight. That's the one where Fury didn't get decked.
Have you had a chance to buy Fury a Valentine's present yet?

[The Docker]

When Wilder landed with something, Fury went down.

It seems you were too busy with mastubating on the Ali posters, while trying to watch the Fury-Wilder fights, especially the second one.

I agree with this, not the weird wanking bit, leave that with you two girls to resolve.

With boxing maturity and aided with near impregnable long levers, Fury has become as difficult as any heavyweight to land clean shots upon, which is a good thing for a boxer I regard to be relatively weak chinned.

I dont think you need Wider type atomic power to clean Fury out, just a couple of clean consecutive shots from a mid powered heavy would do the trick.

[DrDuke]

Oh, the second fight. That's the one where Fury didn't get decked.
Have you had a chance to buy Fury a Valentine's present yet?

Nah, I put all my funds in your hospital, let's hope it'll find a solution one day.

[oogiebe]

Not saying that the Bowe that fought Golota would have beaten Fury. However, the Bowe before that would have easily. Against a prime Bowe, Fury would be fighting an opponent far better than anyone he has ever fought. Fury has never fought a great fighter. Bowe has. Bowe was much more aggressive and talented than Wilder. When Wilder landed with something, Fury went down. Fury would getting hit much, much more than he ever has.

Easily??!!! Stop it. Just stop it.

[Bodyshot3]

I get the whole Fury has been put down thing......he might well go down against Bowe, it could be quite likely.
But the missing caveat is that Fury gets back-up and typically sorts himself out and wins the next round.

Fury can be dropped but he's not been stopped and he sorts himself out.

I can see Bowe doing just that but Fury surviving.

[HomicideHenry]

People getting dropped is so overblown in boxing it's not even funny. You know how often people get dropped or get knocked out or look like garbage in training camp when they're sparring?

My favorite heavyweight of all time Rocky Marciano got dropped twice in flash knockdowns basically against Walcott and Moore. It didn't mean anything because he got right up and knocked the crap out of them.

And I know people don't want to really believe it but once you are a certain size it don't take much to drop anyone no matter how big they are right on their ass. Jack Dempsey was only 187 lb and knocked Jess Willard all over the place.

So when people want to bring up Tyson Fury getting dropped by Steve Cunningham, which I think was only a 4 count, I always say so what? Jimmy Wilde was literally knocking out grown men who outweighed him by a hundred pounds when he was a teenager fighting in carnivals. It's all about precision and timing and accuracy more so than anything else that contributes to knockouts.

Besides the fact that particular fight took place over a decade ago and that version of Tyson Fury is not the version of Tyson Fury now. That's why I've never quite bought into these irrational arguments from people who kept bringing up Vladimir Klitschko getting knocked out a decade before. What happened way back when has no bearing on what happens now unless somebody never progressed from that point onwards.

[Ambling Alp II]

In his big fights against Wilder, he got decked a total of four times. Given Wilder's limited skills, and the low amount of punches that he threw, that is a lot.

[oogiebe]

In his big fights against Wilder, he got decked a total of four times. Given Wilder's limited skills, and the low amount of punches that he threw, that is a lot.

Given Wilder's historic power, I'd say getting up four times and winning all three (arguably) and two by stoppage is more the way I'd say it.

[HomicideHenry]

In his big fights against Wilder, he got decked a total of four times. Given Wilder's limited skills, and the low amount of punches that he threw, that is a lot.

Hmm... I remember years ago on this website how somebody posted a few articles from the Argentinian newspapers making a big fuss about how Oscar Bonavena was robbed of knockdowns in his fight with Muhammad Ali.

I'm of the opinion that they were indeed flash knockdowns and not slips because Bonavena hit Ali right on the button and Ali fell forward, but got up before the referee could count, "One!"

Ironically this same referee never gave Bonavena standing eight counts and never told Ali to go to his neutral corner, so there seems to be some impartiality going on. Joe Frazier saw the fight and declared that he gave every single round to Bonavena with the exception of the last round.

Anyways, getting dropped four times in a combined thirty rounds of boxing is nothing especially when you figure the man putting you down statistically was one of the greatest heavyweight punchers of all time. I venture to say that Deontay Wilder hit every bit as hard as Earnie Shavers and if anything was more dangerous than Earnie because he was so reckless and because Wilder was so much rangier than Earnie.

I don't particularly like Wilder at all but any man who can throw haymakers for 12 rounds has to be a pretty well conditioned guy to be able to do so. Even though he lost the trilogy I think Wilder's stock went up as a fighter because he demonstrated tremendous heart and toughness.

I'm reminded a bit of Larry Merchant discussing Max Baer and saying strictly on styles Max Baer would have presented problems for Muhammad Ali because he was a big swarming heavyweight with a lot of power. And I've always said in my opinion that Wilder is essentially the 21st century version of Max Baer.

[Bodyshot3]

We still need to get over the getting dropped and by whom fixtation, I would politely suggest.
Fighters do go down - sometimes against way lesser guys - but they win and they often win handsomely.

Cooper dropped Ali like a sack of spuds but Ali was always leagues above Henry and that trip to the canvas does not really undercut what Ali achieved or cast any doubts on what he could do.

McClellan sent Benn sprawling but Benn got up and did something pretty brutal and tragic in return.

Just because an elite fighter goes down does not mean they're fatally flawed or massively over-rated.

[oogiebe]

We still need to get over the getting dropped and by whom fixtation, I would politely suggest.
Fighters do go down - sometimes against way lesser guys - but they win and they often win handsomely.

Cooper dropped Ali like a sack of spuds but Ali was always leagues above Henry and that trip to the canvas does not really undercut what Ali achieved or cast any doubts on what he could do.

McClellan sent Benn sprawling but Benn got up and did something pretty brutal and tragic in return.

Just because an elite fighter goes down does not mean they're fatally flawed or massively over-rated.

True. But, if not true, does that mean Oliver McCall and Randall Cobb are ATG's?

[margaret thatcher]

joe louis put on his arse too, even by tony galento

[oogiebe]

joe louis put on his arse too, even by tony galento

And almost by Mauriello.

[Ambling Alp II]

In his big fights against Wilder, he got decked a total of four times. Given Wilder's limited skills, and the low amount of punches that he threw, that is a lot.

Hmm... I remember years ago on this website how somebody posted a few articles from the Argentinian newspapers making a big fuss about how Oscar Bonavena was robbed of knockdowns in his fight with Muhammad Ali.

I'm of the opinion that they were indeed flash knockdowns and not slips because Bonavena hit Ali right on the button and Ali fell forward, but got up before the referee could count, "One!"

Ironically this same referee never gave Bonavena standing eight counts and never told Ali to go to his neutral corner, so there seems to be some impartiality going on. Joe Frazier saw the fight and declared that he gave every single round to Bonavena with the exception of the last round.

Anyways, getting dropped four times in a combined thirty rounds of boxing is nothing especially when you figure the man putting you down statistically was one of the greatest heavyweight punchers of all time. I venture to say that Deontay Wilder hit every bit as hard as Earnie Shavers and if anything was more dangerous than Earnie because he was so reckless and because Wilder was so much rangier than Earnie.

I don't particularly like Wilder at all but any man who can throw haymakers for 12 rounds has to be a pretty well conditioned guy to be able to do so. Even though he lost the trilogy I think Wilder's stock went up as a fighter because he demonstrated tremendous heart and toughness.

I'm reminded a bit of Larry Merchant discussing Max Baer and saying strictly on styles Max Baer would have presented problems for Muhammad Ali because he was a big swarming heavyweight with a lot of power. And I've always said in my opinion that Wilder is essentially the 21st century version of Max Baer.

There simply were no flash knockdowns against Ali against Bonavena. That's nonsense. You post has a lot of nonsense, but I will address this and another obvious one.

As far as your comment" Ali fell forward, but got up before the referee could count, "One!"

The referee never counts "one". The count is started from outside of the ring, Why? Because referee immediately makes sure the fighter who scored the knockdown starts to move to a neutral corner. Only after that does the referee pick up the count from the official outside of the ring. If the official was at 3, the referee would start at 4. It has been this way for decades before the Ali-Bonavena fight and continues to this day.
Can't believe you didn't know this.

[HomicideHenry]

Not necessarily true. I have seen many examples of referees automatically saying, "One! Two! Three!," etc. Yes there is a timekeeper at ringside whenever somebody hits the deck but it's not necessarily at the discretion of the referee to have to refer to that time keeper about anything because a referees count and a timekeepers count is two completely different things.

That's how myths start in boxing like the famous Long Count between Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney where the referees count and the timekeepers count were different. Or for a more modern example when James Douglas hit the deck against Mike Tyson and Don King wanted to sue saying there was some sort of Long Count.

Which brings me back to another fiasco in boxing history which was the rematch between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston where Nat Fleischer of Ring magazine told Joe Walcott that Liston was down for more than 10 seconds which is why the fight ended so bizarrely because Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston were trading blows again after Walcott already said that Sonny Liston was fit to continue because he beat Walcott's count.

I'm still sticking with the Argentinian press on this and I've seen the fight and imho there was flash knocked downs cuz Ali got hit right in the mouth and fell forward twice in that fight but got up so quickly the referee never made a count and ruled them both incorrectly as slips.

[keithmoonhangover]

Not necessarily true. I have seen many examples of referees automatically saying, "One! Two! Three!," etc.

When was the last fight you watched where you heard the referee count one.

[HomicideHenry]

Not necessarily true. I have seen many examples of referees automatically saying, "One! Two! Three!," etc.

When was the last fight you watched where you heard the referee count one.

There's one example. He clearly says, "One! Two!"

[Teddy's Toupee]

Not necessarily true. I have seen many examples of referees automatically saying, "One! Two! Three!," etc.

When was the last fight you watched where you heard the referee count one.

There's one example. He clearly says, "One! Two!"

He clearly starts the count at "two".

[HomicideHenry]

When was the last fight you watched where you heard the referee count one.

There's one example. He clearly says, "One! Two!"

He clearly starts the count at "two".

No because he slaps his hand down and you can see his mouth move saying, "One," it's drowned out by the crowd but then you can visibly hear him say, "Two."

[Ambling Alp II]

Not necessarily true. I have seen many examples of referees automatically saying, "One! Two! Three!," etc. Yes there is a timekeeper at ringside whenever somebody hits the deck but it's not necessarily at the discretion of the referee to have to refer to that time keeper about anything because a referees count and a timekeepers count is two completely different things.

That's how myths start in boxing like the famous Long Count between Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney where the referees count and the timekeepers count were different. Or for a more modern example when James Douglas hit the deck against Mike Tyson and Don King wanted to sue saying there was some sort of Long Count.

Which brings me back to another fiasco in boxing history which was the rematch between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston where Nat Fleischer of Ring magazine told Joe Walcott that Liston was down for more than 10 seconds which is why the fight ended so bizarrely because Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston were trading blows again after Walcott already said that Sonny Liston was fit to continue because he beat Walcott's count.

I'm still sticking with the Argentinian press on this and I've seen the fight and imho there was flash knocked downs cuz Ali got hit right in the mouth and fell forward twice in that fight but got up so quickly the referee never made a count and ruled them both incorrectly as slips.

By rule the referee picks up the count from the official from outside the ring. That is simply a fact.
Why don't you post the footage of those "knockdowns" that Bonavena scored against Ali? Would be great to see.

[HomicideHenry]

Another example of a referee...



@ 26:10....

And to my mind this is the real controversy concerning the rematch between Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney. In the round prior the referee told Dempsey to go to a neutral corner but in the following round the moment Dempsey's knee hit the canvas the referee counted, "One!"

As for Bonavena...



Bonavena lands a left hook and Muhammad Ali hits the canvas, but gets up almost immediately and the referee calls it a slip. But Muhammad Ali was clearly hurt in this round because the Argentinian strongman had Muhammad Ali's legs buckling especially near the end of the round.

In my view if a man lands a punch and a man hits the canvas it's a knockdown it's not a damn slip, even if he slipped, because the punch caused the slip. It was the same left hook that would give Muhammad Ali a world of problems when he would fight Joe Frazier next and coincidentally in that fight there was also a few so-called slips that could have been knock downs.



@ round 11, for example. Ali got hit, did a slight chicken dance, fell, got up, and the referee called it a slip. Ali also falls into the ropes, and would've hit canvas had it not been for the ropes which goes to show that Ali was already hurt from the onset of the round which gives credibility to the "slip" being actually a knockdown.

Ali had such great recuperating powers and reflexes though he was able to get up pretty damn fast which is why I think he got away with people thinking it was slips when in reality it was knock downs. Even that terrific shot in the 15th round that put him flat on his back he got up relatively fast.

Anyways this is one of those things we are just going to have to agree to disagree on because I keep forgetting that as far as your concerned Muhammad Ali was Superman and could never lose even though he really did at different times in his career and there were many times where he looked vulnerable against a wide variety of opponents.



The man was not invincible otherwise a man like Eddie Futch wouldn't have been able to figure out two different methods to be able to defeat Muhammad Ali. The man was not untouchable otherwise Cus D'Amato would not have told it straight to his face that he would lose to Joe Frazier and explained exactly the reason why Muhammad Ali would lose.

[keithmoonhangover]

Not necessarily true. I have seen many examples of referees automatically saying, "One! Two! Three!," etc.

When was the last fight you watched where you heard the referee count one.

So the last time was Ali and Dempsey?

[Ambling Alp II]

Another example of a referee...



@ 26:10....

And to my mind this is the real controversy concerning the rematch between Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney. In the round prior the referee told Dempsey to go to a neutral corner but in the following round the moment Dempsey's knee hit the canvas the referee counted, "One!"

As for Bonavena...



Bonavena lands a left hook and Muhammad Ali hits the canvas, but gets up almost immediately and the referee calls it a slip. But Muhammad Ali was clearly hurt in this round because the Argentinian strongman had Muhammad Ali's legs buckling especially near the end of the round.

In my view if a man lands a punch and a man hits the canvas it's a knockdown it's not a damn slip, even if he slipped, because the punch caused the slip. It was the same left hook that would give Muhammad Ali a world of problems when he would fight Joe Frazier next and coincidentally in that fight there was also a few so-called slips that could have been knock downs.



@ round 11, for example. Ali got hit, did a slight chicken dance, fell, got up, and the referee called it a slip. Ali also falls into the ropes, and would've hit canvas had it not been for the ropes which goes to show that Ali was already hurt from the onset of the round which gives credibility to the "slip" being actually a knockdown.

Ali had such great recuperating powers and reflexes though he was able to get up pretty damn fast which is why I think he got away with people thinking it was slips when in reality it was knock downs. Even that terrific shot in the 15th round that put him flat on his back he got up relatively fast.

Anyways this is one of those things we are just going to have to agree to disagree on because I keep forgetting that as far as your concerned Muhammad Ali was Superman and could never lose even though he really did at different times in his career and there were many times where he looked vulnerable against a wide variety of opponents.



The man was not invincible otherwise a man like Eddie Futch wouldn't have been able to figure out two different methods to be able to defeat Muhammad Ali. The man was not untouchable otherwise Cus D'Amato would not have told it straight to his face that he would lose to Joe Frazier and explained exactly the reason why Muhammad Ali would lose.

Come on, those were obvious slips. I know you hate Ali, but really.

The rule was different with Dempsey-Tunney regarding the referee starting the count. The referee has picked up the count from the official from an official outside of the ring for more than 80 years now.
This is a fact.

[Ambling Alp II]

Another example of a referee...



@ 26:10....

And to my mind this is the real controversy concerning the rematch between Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney. In the round prior the referee told Dempsey to go to a neutral corner but in the following round the moment Dempsey's knee hit the canvas the referee counted, "One!"

As for Bonavena...



Bonavena lands a left hook and Muhammad Ali hits the canvas, but gets up almost immediately and the referee calls it a slip. But Muhammad Ali was clearly hurt in this round because the Argentinian strongman had Muhammad Ali's legs buckling especially near the end of the round.

In my view if a man lands a punch and a man hits the canvas it's a knockdown it's not a damn slip, even if he slipped, because the punch caused the slip. It was the same left hook that would give Muhammad Ali a world of problems when he would fight Joe Frazier next and coincidentally in that fight there was also a few so-called slips that could have been knock downs.



@ round 11, for example. Ali got hit, did a slight chicken dance, fell, got up, and the referee called it a slip. Ali also falls into the ropes, and would've hit canvas had it not been for the ropes which goes to show that Ali was already hurt from the onset of the round which gives credibility to the "slip" being actually a knockdown.

Ali had such great recuperating powers and reflexes though he was able to get up pretty damn fast which is why I think he got away with people thinking it was slips when in reality it was knock downs. Even that terrific shot in the 15th round that put him flat on his back he got up relatively fast.

Anyways this is one of those things we are just going to have to agree to disagree on because I keep forgetting that as far as your concerned Muhammad Ali was Superman and could never lose even though he really did at different times in his career and there were many times where he looked vulnerable against a wide variety of opponents.



The man was not invincible otherwise a man like Eddie Futch wouldn't have been able to figure out two different methods to be able to defeat Muhammad Ali. The man was not untouchable otherwise Cus D'Amato would not have told it straight to his face that he would lose to Joe Frazier and explained exactly the reason why Muhammad Ali would lose.

Come on, those were obvious slips. You can clearly see Ali throwing a punch against Bonavena and Bonavena not throwing one. I know you hate Ali, but really.

The rule was different with Dempsey-Tunney regarding the referee starting the count. The referee has picked up the count from the official from an official outside of the ring for more than 80 years now.
This is a fact. We don't have to agree to disagree. You simply didn't know the rule.