Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[Syntax Error]

Foreman was out of the game in 1975, outside of exhibitions. Frazier was the #1 contender. Ali fought him. Not much more to it than that.

That's it.

Foreman has admitted to being depressed and not wanting to fight, so what was Ali supposed to do?

Ali was busy fighting and when Foreman did return in '76, the second Frazier fight aside, where Smokin'Joe was basically a living corpse, Foreman did not look so formidable as previously and then he promptly retired for good (or so we thought) after being outclassed by feather fisted Jimmy Young.

Ali can't be blamed for that.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm not so sure a satisfactory answer was ever really given for why Muhammad Ali never did fight George Foreman in 1975 considering George Foreman did that major public relations stunt a fighting five people in a single night to basically demonstrate to the world that the loss to Muhammad Ali was somehow a fluke and Muhammad Ali was sitting right at the commentary table when the matches were going on.

That took place in April of 1975.

But if we look at Muhammad Ali's record for 1975 he fought Chuck Wepner in March, Ron Lyle in May, Joe Bugner in June, and Joe Frazier in October. It seems that Muhammad Ali took up as many fights as he could instead of the rematch with George Foreman.

Apparently Joe Bugner was such a soft touch that Ali had no problems facing him less than a month after facing the hard-hitting Ron Lyle. He could have fought George Foreman instead. Or he could have fought George Foreman in that three months span of time between June and October. Or quite frankly he could have fought George in the month of January or February of 1975 considering the match in Zaire took place in October 1974.

For much of 1975 Muhammad Ali was defending the title every two or three months basically. And of course in April of 1975 George Foreman demonstrated that the only fight he wanted in the whole world was Muhammad Ali and was taunting Muhammad Ali throughout the entire event.

So for me there is no satisfactory answer as to why the rematch did not happen considering George Foreman was pretty much hell-bent on revenge and wanted to destroy Muhammad Ali. But if one looks at 1975 it was mostly soft touches for Muhammad Ali, with the exception of Ron Lyle who was still in his prime.

Forget the third Frazier fight it's been talked to death on this forum that Joe was legally blind and was no longer the fighter he once was and Muhammad Ali gave him the shot because he was not perceived to be a threat anymore. It may very well be the greatest heavyweight fight of all time but make no mistake both men were on the downside when it happened.

The very fact that Muhammad Ali would take on Antonio Inoki afterwards for six million dollars, and continued facing a series of bums in 1976 clearly demonstrates from my perspective that Muhammad Ali wanted no part of a rematch with George Foreman.

[Ambling Alp II]

Homicidehenry said
"But if one looks at 1975 it was mostly soft touches for Muhammad Ali, with the exception of Ron Lyle who was still in his prime."

Wow. Joe Frazier is a soft touch? Joe Frazier. Unbelievable.
Bad enough that Joe Bugner is labeled a soft touch, but Joe Frazier?

If Foreman wanted a rematch so badly, he should have actually beat someone.

A champion defends the title four times in one year, including defenses against Joe Frazier, Joe Bugner, and Ron Lyle, and somehow, someway he gets criticized. You could make a serious argument that is most impressive year of title defenses for a heavyweight champion. Ever.

[oogiebe]

Homicidehenry said
"But if one looks at 1975 it was mostly soft touches for Muhammad Ali, with the exception of Ron Lyle who was still in his prime."

Wow. Joe Frazier is a soft touch? Joe Frazier. Unbelievable.
Bad enough that Joe Bugner is labeled a soft touch, but Joe Frazier?

If Foreman wanted a rematch so badly, he should have actually beat someone.

A champion defends the title four times in one year, including defenses against Joe Frazier, Joe Bugner, and Ron Lyle, and somehow, someway he gets criticized. You could make a serious argument that is most impressive year of title defenses for a heavyweight champion. Ever.

Joe Frazier who was past it and only had two more fights after the "Thrilla.' Wouldn't say a soft touch, but in Homi's conext he wasn't totally off. Lyle; Frazier; Bugner; Wepner. Hardly the most impressive years of title defenses in heavyweight history. Bugner was never a threat to top HW's of his era. Wepner should've been beaten easier than he was. Lyle was dangerous, but easily outboxed. I'm betting Ali got more than he bargained for with Smokin' Joe on this one though.

[Ambling Alp II]

Wepner was a stiff but otherwise that is pretty impressive list of title defenses. Bugner was a very good fighter. He had very good boxing skills and a solid chin. Bugner-Frazier was a good fight and Bugner held his own. Bugner almost beat Lyle. Beat Greg Page when he himself was well past his best.
Lyle was obviously a very good fighter.

Frazier fought a great fight in the 3rd fight against Ali. He would have beaten almost anyone else. It did take a lot of him and Ali.

Foreman fought literally nobody in 1975. You can't say a guy is getting cheated out of a title shot when he isn't fighting anyone.
But somehow, some way, Ali is getting criticized for what really was a tremendous year of title defenses.

[oogiebe]

Wepner was a stiff but otherwise that is pretty impressive list of title defenses. Bugner was a very good fighter. He had very good boxing skills and a solid chin. Bugner-Frazier was a good fight and Bugner held his own. Bugner almost beat Lyle. Beat Greg Page when he himself was well past his best.
Lyle was obviously a very good fighter.

Frazier fought a great fight in the 3rd fight against Ali. He would have beaten almost anyone else. It did take a lot of him and Ali.

Foreman fought literally nobody in 1975. You can't say a guy is getting cheated out of a title shot when he isn't fighting anyone.
But somehow, some way, Ali is getting criticized for what really was a tremendous year of title defenses.

You love Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

Why is it so hard to accept that Frazier was no longer in his prime? Why is it so hard to accept that Frazier was legally blind and arthritic? Why is it so hard to accept that Ali was also on the decline? Their third and final fight in 1975 was between two men who had seen far better days and only because they were both going to crap was the fight so competitive.

[tiny_acres]

4 fighters that would surely beat ALI????
I can't name 4 that i would feel confident in betting on 100%
I would give Holmes a good shot at it. Bowe Holyfield and Lewis also have a shot.
Possibly Mike Tyson.
And Ali could lose to others also. But I don't feel comfortable betting on any of them.

[oogiebe]

4 fighters that would surely beat ALI????
I can't name 4 that i would feel confident in betting on 100%
I would give Holmes a good shot at it. Bowe Holyfield and Lewis also have a shot.
Possibly Mike Tyson.
And Ali could lose to others also. But I don't feel comfortable betting on any of them.

Hulk Hogan

[Seamus]

Ali would have swept the trilogy with Norton if he had gotten up on his toes and boxed like he did in several rds, instead he spent too much time laying on the ropes. When he chose to box, Norton had no answer. 60's Clay would have won a comfortable decision from Holy, too fast and too much movement.

[DrDuke]

Holyfield is a terrible matchup for Ali, he was relentless like Frazier, only faster, more technical and versatile.

[Syntax Error]

The funny thing about Ali/Foreman 2, the fight that never was, is, George Foreman himself said that Ali phoned him up sometime around 1977 to beg Foreman to come out if retirement and knock out Ken Norton because the WBC were demanding that Ali face Norton for a fourth time.

Foreman said Ali didn't want to fight Norton again because he wasn't confident that he could beat Ken, so offered Foreman a title shot if he considered Ali's request.

If this is true and I can't see why Foreman would lie about something like that, it doesn't sound like a man who didn't want to fight Foreman again.

It sounds more like he was wary of Norton after 3 hard and close fights.

[HomicideHenry]

The funny thing about Ali/Foreman 2, the fight that never was, is, George Foreman himself said that Ali phoned him up sometime around 1977 to beg Foreman to come out if retirement and knock out Ken Norton because the WBC were demanding that Ali face Norton for a fourth time.

Foreman said Ali didn't want to fight Norton again because he wasn't confident that he could beat Ken, so offered Foreman a title shot if he considered Ali's request.

If this is true and I can't see why Foreman would lie about something like that, it doesn't sound like a man who didn't want to fight Foreman again.

It sounds more like he was wary of Norton after 3 hard and close fights.

I believe the story because Muhammad Ali was hoping that the Great White Hope Duane Bobick would somehow beat Ken Norton but when Ken knocked out Bobick in the first round that meant that Muhammad Ali had to fight him for a fourth time.

As we all know that didn't happen that Muhammad Ali gave up the WBC title so he could face the far lesser challenge of Leon Spinks. I forget the man's name but Muhammad Ali tried to talk some guy who beat Ali in the amateurs by knockout to turn pro and fight him for the title kind of like Pete Rademacher.

I think even around this time there was some talk of Muhammad Ali defending the title against some light heavyweight as well, I forget the man's name but this was wildly talked about on the hypothetical matches section of the forum.

The fact is if anyone honestly evaluates the fight films of Muhammad Ali's career Chuck wepner was the last time that Muhammad Ali did any sort of real dancing in the ring and from that time on he was flat-footed and relying heavily on the rope a dope tactic. He was rapidly declining, and he was facing a lot of soft touches to hold on to the title longer than he should have.

I think the reason why the rematch never happened was the simple fact that Muhammad Ali knew that he could fool George Foreman once suckering him into gassing himself out, but he knew he couldn't do that a second time because George would have went to the middle of the ring and had Muhammad Ali come to him. And this was kind of demonstrated in 1975 when George fought those five journeymen in a single night, where George basically did everything else but pound somebody on the ropes.

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman was going to have trouble Ali in a rematch. Foreman hit Ali with everything he had, and nothing happened. He was not going to knock him out.

Foreman could have fought a slower pace, but would he really be able to not only go 15 rounds, but but actually do also enough (while throwing fewer punches) to win enough rounds to get a decision? Extremely doubtful.
The exhibition against the 5 tomato cans doesn't mean anything. At all.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali would have swept the trilogy with Norton if he had gotten up on his toes and boxed like he did in several rds, instead he spent too much time laying on the ropes. When he chose to box, Norton had no answer. 60's Clay would have won a comfortable decision from Holy, too fast and too much movement.

Agree. He just couldn't move around like he used to, and couldn't do it nearly as often. 60s version would have done that to Norton.
Always thought that Holyfield would probably land on more on a prime Ali than anyone. Holyfield was an accurate puncher, and had good hand speed, and wasn't one-dimensional.
most.
Obviously with Ali's defense, he wouldn't score that much, but he would land more than just about anyone else.

Defense is where Holyfield would lose. Holyfield was never a good defensive fighter. He would be facing a fighter who had faster hand speed than anyone he ever faced. Ali himself was a very accurate puncher. Holyfield would be target practice. He would be getting hit more than he ever got in his career.

[DrDuke]

Ali would have swept the trilogy with Norton if he had gotten up on his toes and boxed like he did in several rds, instead he spent too much time laying on the ropes. When he chose to box, Norton had no answer. 60's Clay would have won a comfortable decision from Holy, too fast and too much movement.

Agree. He just couldn't move around like he used to, and couldn't do it nearly as often. 60s version would have done that to Norton.

Also became less handsome, didn't he?

[HomicideHenry]

People act as though George Foreman could not pace himself and go the distance when the fact is he had already went the distance with guys like Peralta. It's a myth that the young George Foreman could not box and that he could not fight with a strategy.

He could and he did it well, the problem was George Foreman hit so hard he was of that opinion that Rocky Marciano had: "Why waltz 10 rounds with a guy when you can knock him out in one?", and knowing that he could not knock out Muhammad Ali would mean he would have to defeat Muhammad Ali by being more composed.

That is what would have happened had a rematched occurred unless George Foreman was a complete idiot and tried to do the same strategy again like he did in Zaire which is the entire hinge of Alp's argument that George Foreman was some sort of neanderthal who could not figure out how to beat somebody despite having men like Archie Moore in his training camp.

Anyways let's take that stroll down memory lane to when George Foreman fought those five guys in a single night and let's break it down:



Forget the quality of the opposition. That wasn't necessarily the point of the exercise but rather to demonstrate that George Foreman had the conditioning and the restraint to go several rounds. Each of these men having different styles. Ignore the extremely biased and annoying commentary by Howard Cosell.

First match, Alonzo Johnson, probably best known for being a sparring partner of Muhammad Ali's. Foreman dancing, center of the ring, even mocking Johnson with bunny hopping around the ring. He stops Johnson in the second. Foreman predicted a 2nd round stoppage.

Second match, Jerry Judge, probably best known for being an opponent of Joe Frazier. Foreman predicted a 1st round stoppage. George takes control of the middle of the ring, and boxing. Foreman drops Judge in the first, and stops him in the second round.

Third match, Terry Daniels, another Joe Frazier opponent. Foreman dancing, controlling the middle of the ring. Foreman drops Daniels in the first. More dancing from Foreman, still controlling the middle of the ring. Referee ends the contest in the 2nd.

Fourth match, Charlie Polite, a familiar journeyman in the 1970s. Foreman dancing, controlling the center of the ring. Round one uneventful. Round two Foreman controls the middle of the ring, but noticeably does not attack Polite when he was along the ropes. Round three, Foreman controls the middle of the ring and Foreman drops him.

Fifth match, Boone Kirkman, whom Foreman defeated previously. It must be noted Foreman was 232 pounds for this event. Foreman dancing, controlling the middle of the ring. Foreman drops him in the first. Foreman cuts Kirkman in the third.

So what can we conclude from this stunt?

1- Foreman, even out of shape, showed he could pace himself since the five fights totalled twelve rounds against 5 fresh opponents.

2- Foreman showed he wasn't going to fall for the rope a dope tactic that Ali used in Zaire.

3- Foreman showed a keen interest in staying in the middle of the ring, which certainly would have been key in a rematch with Ali.

4- Foreman threw a lot of jabs throughout this event which seemed he was adamant to set up shots and score points. Less power punches, means Foreman was also fighting smart not gassing out.

Was it his best outing or really anything to write home about? No. But, it is clear that George Foreman had a different mentality coming into this event with Muhammad Ali at ringside and I believe it was strategic to tell Muhammad Ali that the tactics he used in Zaire wasn't going to work for him because he would stand there looking at Ali rather than pounding on him as he rested on the ropes.

To quote Foreman at the end of the event: "Tell the man to stop fighting Chuck Wepner who I knocked out in three rounds," in reference to Muhammad Ali defending the title against Wepner in March. This event took place in April. Ironically it must be noted that had George Foreman defeated Muhammad Ali that Chuck Wepner would have got the title shot against George Foreman. Foreman also mentions Ron Lyle in the post fight because he was up next for Muhammad Ali.

As I pointed out before a couple of posts back it seemed evident that the Muhammad Ali team was having him face off with everybody else but George Foreman. The very fact that Foreman brought it up seems evident in retrospect that Muhammad Ali's team wanted no part of a rematch.

The very fact that George's first fight back as a professional in 1976 was against Ron Lyle stopping him in the 5th round seemed to give evidence that everybody knew that Foreman was a greater threat to Muhammad Ali than anyone else out there. Instead of Foreman Ali would face the likes of Antonio Inoki and Richard Dunne and Jean Pierre Coopman and Alfredo Evangelista and Jimmy Young.

It seems absolutely unimaginable today especially in our present era of automatic rematches that George Foreman was never given the shot against Muhammad Ali, and that Muhammad Ali basically got away with facing soft opposition with virtually no criticism whatsoever.

[Ambling Alp II]

The exhibitions fights mean nothing. Why? Because they were exhibition. Mean as much as an NFL pre-season game.

A lot of nonsense but I guess I will just answer one other comment:
" It seems absolutely unimaginable today especially in our present era of automatic rematches that George Foreman was never given the shot against Muhammad Ali, and that Muhammad Ali basically got away with facing soft opposition with virtually no criticism whatsoever."

Yes, we are now in a magical time. Fury to this day has still not fought Usyk or Joshua. Usyk has never fought Wilder.
Yet somehow Ali gets ripped not fighting a guy in a particular year who isn't even active. Wow.

Foreman was not given a shot because he didn't earn one. He didn't fight one opponent in 1975.
Ali's got away with soft opposition. Wtf? Joe Frazier was the best opponent available and an ATG himself. Ali fought him. He gave Lyle a title shot; didn't have to do that. Gave Joe Bugner one as well. That is 3 of the top 5 heavyweights available, and Ali beat them all in one year.

In the history of boxing, has any other heavyweight champion ever beat 3 of the top 5 contenders in one year?

[HomicideHenry]

Context is everything. Joe Bugner was such a non-threat to the heavyweight title that Muhammad Ali defended the belt against him less than one month after fighting Ron Lyle.

And again it's been said many times that Joe Frazier was legally blind and arthritic and it's been said in documentaries like Ghosts of Manila that the only reason why Frazier was given a title shot was because of his piss poor performance against Jimmy Ellis and they figured it would be easy.

Therefore the only fight that actually mattered in 1975 was Ron Lyle, who was ahead on the scorecards when Muhammad Ali finally stopped him in the 11th round. And there was still 5-6 months of time where a match with Foreman could've been made.

Never mind the fact that in February 1976 was Coopman, Young in April, Dunn in May, Antonio Inoki in June, and Norton in September. Three of five were farces. Ali was gifted decisions over Young and Norton. Foreman blows out Lyle in January and Frazier in June and LeDoux in August and Denis in October. It could've been made.

[Syntax Error]

Immediate rematches weren't a thing during that period to be fair, as Ali himself found out.

Frazier beat Ali in '71 and despite Ali being the biggest name with the biggest payday attached, Frazier didn't rematch him quickly.

Ali spent all of '72 chasing Frazier and was fighter of the year to boot, but Frazier was 'busy' that year and Ali never got his rematch for the title.

I have less of a problem with Ali not immediately rematching Foreman as George wasn't fighting in '75.

I think it's a little unfair to rip a guy like Ali who has one of the best resumes in HW history.

It's unfortunate that the Foreman rematch never happened, but George has to take some blame for disappearing too.

[keithmoonhangover]

Immediate rematches weren't a thing during that period to be fair, as Ali himself found out.

Liston, Johansson and Patterson all got immediate rematches. Ali got them against Spinks and Norton

[Ambling Alp II]

Sometimes there is a quick rematch, sometimes not. Frazier didn't get one after he lost to Foreman.
It's not the responsibility of the champion to chase after a challenger. Not Ali's problem that Foreman disappeared.

The champion should defend the title against the top contender in a year. Anything more is what the champion wants to do.

Now homicidehenry says that Ali should fought Foreman in in 1976 in after Foreman beat Frazier in June. Never mind that Ali had a fight in September against the #1 contender, Norton.

Love how homicidehenry says that "Foreman blows out Lyle in January". You have wonder if he even saw the fight.

[p4p1]

Immediate rematches weren't a thing during that period to be fair, as Ali himself found out.

Liston, Johansson and Patterson all got immediate rematches. Ali got them against Spinks and Norton

I think what Syntax was getting at though is that immediate title rematches had stopped becoming common place as they seemed to be previously. From Louis' reign to Liston all losing champions got an immediate rematch. Then Ali didn't get one, Frazier didn't get one, Foreman didn't get one, Ali got one but one title was stripped because of the rematch. Previous to Louis, I believe only Dempsey got an immediate rematch. It's not hard to argue IMO that after Ali beat Liston immediate rematches for the HW title stopped becoming an almost given like they had been in the previous 20 years.

[Syntax Error]

Immediate rematches weren't a thing during that period to be fair, as Ali himself found out.

Liston, Johansson and Patterson all got immediate rematches. Ali got them against Spinks and Norton

I think what Syntax was getting at though is that immediate title rematches had stopped becoming common place as they seemed to be previously. From Louis' reign to Liston all losing champions got an immediate rematch. Then Ali didn't get one, Frazier didn't get one, Foreman didn't get one, Ali got one but one title was stripped because of the rematch. Previous to Louis, I believe only Dempsey got an immediate rematch. It's not hard to argue IMO that after Ali beat Liston immediate rematches for the HW title stopped becoming an almost given like they had been in the previous 20 years.

Yes, spot on.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Foreman was out of the game in 1975, outside of exhibitions. Frazier was the #1 contender. Ali fought him. Not much more to it than that.

That's it.

Foreman has admitted to being depressed and not wanting to fight, so what was Ali supposed to do?

Ali was busy fighting and when Foreman did return in '76, the second Frazier fight aside, where Smokin'Joe was basically a living corpse, Foreman did not look so formidable as previously and then he promptly retired for good (or so we thought) after being outclassed by feather fisted Jimmy Young.

Ali can't be blamed for that.

- Geez, it's like you two was born yesterday for the umpteenth time.

Timeline is your friend if you seriously follow boxing history.

Zaire was a rigged fight, period, from loose ropes, George cut open his first spar in Zaire, held hostage by troops of notorious mass murderer Mugabe who Ali shamelessly kissed up to while being feted in his ill begotten mansion while George was kept from flying to Paris to get proper care for the cut.

First time ever knocked down and George gets a short count with Ali fraternizing his own corner ignoring the neutral corner rule as he did most of his career. There were 2 seconds left in the round.

George ditches Sadler for his sorry role in the mess along with Archie who later convinces George of his innocence in Zaire and was instrumental in his comeback.



Post fight Ring interview has Foreman ready for the rematch while Ali refuses to commit.

Post fight interview with Ferdie has him advising Herbert to avoid the rematch with Foreman because of the heavy body damage he did to Ali, and indeed, just as he did with Mr. Field, their KO ratios precipitously drop as do their subsequent boxing performances.

Nov 75 Playboy interview Ali says a black Indonesian oilman made a rematch offer of $5mil apiece, so what does he do? Why go get beat up by Chuck Wepner in Podunk Ohio for less than a third of $5mil. The same Wepner than 3 fight novice George blew out inside 3 rounds.

When George has his exhibition in Canada, Ali and Cosell in his stupid yellow Jacket soil themselves, Cosell pontificating over the disgrace as Ali jumps all over screaming at George that he ain't ever getting a rematch.

George Dec 75 Cover makes his intentions even more clear.



I'm embarrassed having to point out this well known stuff on a history forum of all things where presumably at least a bare minimum standard of acumen should be demonstrated.