Could any Middleweight have K.Od Hagler?

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 21 Aug 2006, 17:32

BoxBuzz wrote:Ok the bakery department is solidly in Hagler's camp.....

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 23 Aug 2006, 23:01

A 160 lb cannon could have knocked out Hagler.

I think retiring at the right time gives Hagler's chin a little more credit. Usually good chins deteriorate, but that didn't take away the fact that Marvin was one of the toughest S.O.B.s.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 24 Aug 2006, 01:59

Once again you Hagler nut huggers are at it......

Short list of guys who could beat him in my book...

Monzon but no KO
Burley KO maybe?
Bivins No Ko

Funny you leave out the guys who did beat him. How about his last fight? A guy named:

Sugar Ray Leonard

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 24 Aug 2006, 09:04

ringsider wrote:Once again you Hagler nut huggers are at it......

Short list of guys who could beat him in my book...

Monzon but no KO
Burley KO maybe?
Bivins No Ko

Funny you leave out the guys who did beat him. How about his last fight? A guy named:

Sugar Ray Leonard

Sugar Ray's win is often disputed. Had they fought a rematch, would've been a different story, but Sugar punked out on it.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Aug 2006, 09:08

Willie Monroe did it as well....avenged after Willie began to lose his edge, Hagler could be beat AND he was great.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 24 Aug 2006, 09:52

BoxBuzz wrote:Willie Monroe did it as well....avenged after Willie began to lose his edge, Hagler could be beat AND he was great.

Funny thing is, Monroe beat Hagler in March of 76, Hagler KOed Monroe in Feb of 77 and August of 77, so within 17 months of losing, Hagler managed to knock him out twice. I know Willie 76 wasn't the same guy as Willie 77, but he didn't slip that much to take a good win away.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Aug 2006, 13:50

both guys had good wins....'cept Hagler had twice as many.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 25 Aug 2006, 01:56

..there has never been a fighter in any division in any era of boxing that couldn't be knocked out......if the circumstances were just right...timing of punch or punches....just the right punch in the right place at the right time.....and that goes for hagler. but....i can't come up with any middleweight whom i would bet on to do it.

yeah buzz....hagler always fought at middleweight and i'm reasonably sure that harold johnson never did.

archie....most powerful and effective....and healthier..at light heavy.

patterson said when he was fully developed that the lowest weight he could come in and not be weak was 180. i think his weight for his first pro fights might have been as low as 165....but he was still a growing boy.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 25 Aug 2006, 03:14

Mattyp151 wrote:
ringsider wrote:Once again you Hagler nut huggers are at it......

Short list of guys who could beat him in my book...

Monzon but no KO
Burley KO maybe?
Bivins No Ko

Funny you leave out the guys who did beat him. How about his last fight? A guy named:

Sugar Ray Leonard
Sugar Ray's win is often disputed. Had they fought a rematch, would've been a different story, but Sugar punked out on it.

I'm not so sure about that.

Hagler had virtually no speed in 1987, by the time of a probable rematch in 1988ish, Hagler would have been slower than Frank Bruno in a tar bath.

Sugar would have just outsped him & won a lopsided decision.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 25 Aug 2006, 12:04

Syntax Error wrote:
Mattyp151 wrote:
ringsider wrote:Once again you Hagler nut huggers are at it......
Funny you leave out the guys who did beat him. How about his last fight? A guy named:

Sugar Ray Leonard
Sugar Ray's win is often disputed. Had they fought a rematch, would've been a different story, but Sugar punked out on it.
I'm not so sure about that.

Hagler had virtually no speed in 1987, by the time of a probable rematch in 1988ish, Hagler would have been slower than Frank Bruno in a tar bath.

Sugar would have just outsped him & won a lopsided decision.

Sugar barely lasted 12, where Hagler came on late. If Sugar didn't give Hagler the same respects Hagler gave Sugar, it would've tarnished his image greatly. I think he knew 15 in a small ring with Marvin was a bad idea, and instead of putting the ball in Hagler's court, Sugar took his ball and went home. After the 9th, Sugar was useless, give 3 more rounds of that, and Hagler easily wins the fight, even with 1 biased official.

blueberrymuffin · Post by **blueberrymuffin** » 25 Aug 2006, 17:25

Like Syntax mentioned, Hagler had virutally no speed left and I don't think he was up for a fight at this point-still a close fight.

When Leonard lost just some of his speed, he was completely outclassed by Norris even though Leonard challenged him and Norris had never faced class opposition.

Considering what happened in the Norris fight and the fact he waited so long to face Marvin, he wasn't really all that impressive. I don't see why Leonard couldn't give a rematch instead willing to make a match with Lalonde happen. Nobody knew who he was.

teen guru · Post by **teen guru** » 25 Aug 2006, 18:02

hmm...maybe Bob Fitzsimmons

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 25 Aug 2006, 18:54

I'm absolutely sure that Stanley Ketchell would knocked out Marvin Hagler (good boxer, good chin, but Juan Roldán knocked him down); remember as Stanley k.d. Jack Johnson (!!!) And I wants to known what chances would have Hagler before boys like Tony Zale or Rocky Graziano...

blueberrymuffin · Post by **blueberrymuffin** » 25 Aug 2006, 20:08

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:I'm absolutely sure that Stanley Ketchell would knocked out Marvin Hagler (good boxer, good chin, but Juan Roldán knocked him down); remember as Stanley k.d. Jack Johnson (!!!) And I wants to known what chances would have Hagler before boys like Tony Zale or Rocky Graziano...

I liked Ketchel. Nat Fleischer founder of ring magazine ranked Ketchel over everyone including Greb and Robinson. I still can't tell much from the film.

Zale? There's not much film on him either.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 26 Aug 2006, 01:30

..graziano is much over rated as a puncher. he could hit but he made his reputation mostly over welterweights. not in hagler's class.

zale....he and graziano have their fury related mainly on their bouts with each other. neither was as damaging against the other middleweights they fought.

a bout between hagler and graziano wouldn't be a problem for the marvelous one.

..against zale....well, here I think hagler would do well to go into his boxing mode rather than going to war as he did with hearns. zale would be outboxed. in a war...hagler would take a couple of those zale shots to the body and realize the science of boxing would be the better route.

cosand · Post by **cosand** » 26 Aug 2006, 04:46

Carlos Monzon, who for my money was the best all around pound for pond fighter of all tiime, would have destroyed Hagler.
I am not seeing a clearly defined single punch Ko, or even a single punch that would hurt haggler.
I envision Monzon wereing him down, and in about round 7 or 8, Hagler going down and maybe getting up once, but for sure staying down the second time.
Maybe the best reason for this ?
Haggler would not have been able to hurt Monzon. He would stay on his chect and punch inside, taking away Hagler's middle range, and crushing him to the body, to set up head shots.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Aug 2006, 07:38

cosand wrote:Carlos Monzon, who for my money was the best all around pound for pond fighter of all tiime, would have destroyed Hagler.
I am not seeing a clearly defined single punch Ko, or even a single punch that would hurt haggler.
I envision Monzon wereing him down, and in about round 7 or 8, Hagler going down and maybe getting up once, but for sure staying down the second time.
Maybe the best reason for this ?
Haggler would not have been able to hurt Monzon. He would stay on his chect and punch inside, taking away Hagler's middle range, and crushing him to the body, to set up head shots.

I read this with great interest, it appears we have a new contributor with discerning evaluation skills, knowledge of a division other than Heavyweight, and what I would agree to be very close to the right answer to this question. I too suspect Monzon could do this in just the way you described though I didn't express the KO capability in this forum as not to overly provoke the Hagler fans, as I highly value oxygen and am big on self preservation. (Anyone who thinks I'm a coward I will challenge to a quarter mile sprint to prove otherwise. Simply signal your intent by moving fast in my direction and the race is on.)

Your ability to show "no fear" in the presence of the Icon worshippers is impressive. Oh and we don't penalize for spelling in this forum. I especially like the unique spelling of "Haggler".

Seriously welcome to the forum.

blueberrymuffin · Post by **blueberrymuffin** » 26 Aug 2006, 09:59

cosand wrote:Carlos Monzon, who for my money was the best all around pound for pond fighter of all tiime, would have destroyed Hagler.
I am not seeing a clearly defined single punch Ko, or even a single punch that would hurt haggler.
I envision Monzon wereing him down, and in about round 7 or 8, Hagler going down and maybe getting up once, but for sure staying down the second time.
Maybe the best reason for this ?
Haggler would not have been able to hurt Monzon. He would stay on his chect and punch inside, taking away Hagler's middle range, and crushing him to the body, to set up head shots.

How though would he do it? Monzon wasn't nearly as sharp as Hearns and Hearns caught marvin early when he was strongest. CM wasn't close to being as quick with his hands.

In fact, Monzon was slow. Look at him in all the films. Sure he looked awesome against Bogs, Mundine, Licata, and Denny Moyer. Who wouldn't be? Most quality opponents lasted the distance with Carlos. Look at the evidence: Griffith, Valdez (twice), Bouttier.

I've seen opponents much faster against Marvin during his prime and they couldn't hit him clean and Marvin was at least twice the fighter he was in 81, 82 than he was in 85-especially when he became more agressive..

I think it was Monzon that was made for Hagler-tall, slow with his hands, and had a lot of rib cage exposed. Frankly, I think Hagler would break his ribs and once that happened then what?

Forget about all the baloney about Monzon being stronger than Marvin, cooler under fire, and being able to outlast him during the championship rounds. It's Hagler with much the harder jab, the better infighter, and I see Marvin having no problem slipping those slow punches with ease.

Monzon would hit air all night long and wind up seriously hurt.

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 26 Aug 2006, 10:13

I wonder if Julian Jackson ever caught Hagler flush on the chin if it would drop the legend...Hagler had a solid chin, but it is the Hawk and he did damage when he connected.

cosand · Post by **cosand** » 26 Aug 2006, 10:18

Buzzbox...Thank you for your welcome and for you kind words.
You might notice in my other con5tributions in some other threads, I am not shy about swimming upstream , especially when it comes to nixing myth and misconception of boxing history

Blueberry,
Monzon was not as fast as Hagler, agreeed
But neither was he as fast as Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles or Licata.
All of them and others did everything but hit Monzon with the stool from their corner, and they none of them could even make him blink, much less hurt him.
Monzon on the other hand, hurt everyone.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Aug 2006, 10:45

Briscoe to that list....

blueberrymuffin · Post by **blueberrymuffin** » 26 Aug 2006, 11:25

cosand wrote:Buzzbox...Thank you for your welcome and for you kind words.
You might notice in my other con5tributions in some other threads, I am not shy about swimming upstream , especially when it comes to nixing myth and misconception of boxing history

Blueberry,
Monzon was not as fast as Hagler, agreeed
But neither was he as fast as Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles or Licata.
All of them and others did everything but hit Monzon with the stool from their corner, and they none of them could even make him blink, much less hurt him.
Monzon on the other hand, hurt everyone.

He didn't hurt Briscoe. He didn't hurt Valdez or Bouttier and Griffith went 15 and 14.

I ask: Monzon is going to punch with Marvin on the inside and somehow wear him out? Don't you think that's wishful thinking?

Marvin would tear him apart on the inside. Have you seen Monzon's ribcage? His legs? he's a stick.

Common sense tells you that the more compact, stockier fighter with less area to hit is better suited to inside warfare, not that skinny thing with the long arms.

Accept the words of one who knows: Monzon would wilt under the all out assault of the likes of Hagler, Cerdan and I can see him getting outboxed by Roy Jones because Monzon wasn't built to take the fight to a speedster like Roy and knock him out.

In short, he doesn't have the physical equipement to be anything more than a finesse fighter against sluggers and he's too slow to be boxing with the likes of Jones.

Bernard Hopkins is more his speed and would make for a good pick 'em fight.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Aug 2006, 11:36

Well there we have it.....from the muffin man himself. You are THE muffin man correct? I'm pretty sure everybody here knows you...or at least has heard of you....I'll drop you a line... you still livin on Drury Lane? hey never mind me I'm the resident cocky bastard please forgive.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Aug 2006, 11:44

For what it's worth he either had a winning plan going in or developed one along the way every time out, once he matured.....and since your mentioning who rattled who, no one ever really got to Carlos, he never lost his cool not once, and he always perservered. You need to hold on to some aspects of the other side of the equation here.

What Leanord or Monroe could sneak away with, Carlos could walk in and take. It's not a crazy premise. His speed is bit underestimated and what he lacked in speed he had in a sort of "stealth" quality that more than made up for it. His durability is unquestionable and his tenaciousness more than a match for Hagler. IMHO. Your inventorying everything it seems but the ability to deconstruct an opponent find the weaknesses and execute a winning plan. Nobody did that like Carlos.....and Hagler couldnt do it even when by rights he should have been able to. e.g. SRL

cosand · Post by **cosand** » 26 Aug 2006, 13:46

blueberrymuffin

I dont know if you are old enough to have actually seen Monzon fight.
He has to be seen to really grasp what i am talking about.
Every punch was thrown with bad intensions. You could hit hom ion the body the head, the back of the head, low, with an elbow, your head or a hammer, and he just kept coming.
Picture Gatti or Ricky Hatton on PCP, that was Monzon.
Had Monzon hit Hagler with half the shots SRL did, call for the EMTs