Did Zora Folley take a fall?

[JoeCorrao]

As you know, both Foley and Bonavena went down at the hands of what you have called the feather fisted Ali.
Along with some other pretty delicate flowers along the way. Listonx2,Frazier,Pattersonx2,Cooperx2,Banks,Lewis,Besmanoff,Foreman,Foster,
That's some pretty impressive feather dusting.
Some folks are pretty hard to impress.

Ya see.. Liston suffered a torn left biceps.. In the rematch he got up before the referee even started counting.. The count should have been suspended according to the rules until Ali went to a neutral corner.. Frazier was a walking basketcase when Ali stopped him.. Patterson suffered a back injury.. Patterson was old, chinny, and done in the rematch.. Cooper was knocked out many times and was one of the chinniest bleeders ever.. Banks was a chinny 3rd rater who floored Ali.. Blue Lewis was very chinny and lasted longer than expected.. Besmanoff you got to be kidding about---seriously.. Foreman claims he was drugged and I believe him.. Mac Foster went the distance.. Bob Foster weighed a chinny 180 verses Ali

Guys Ali couldn't stop who other guys easily stopped, or shlttcannned??? Rudi Lubbers... Alfredo Evangelista... Ken Norton X 3... Buster Mathis... Mac Foster... Earnie Shavers... Leon Stinks... Joe Bugner X 2... Even Chuvalo was battered to a quick stoppage by Frazier and Foreman.. Ali couldn't make a dent.

Thank you for these brilliant words.

[JoeCorrao]

That sort of debilitating kd is not terribly uncommon......except of course if Liston falls and gets up fast.
Then it's a conspiracy cuz Liston could not be buzzed.

So maybe the Foley thing was under the same scam?


Zora Sold me a Chevy Van from Lou Grubb Chevrolet in Phoenix AZ......

He liked to to talk boxing (especially to a paying customer) hes said Ali caught him a couple of times out of nowhere and it absolutely dimmed his lights...and what you saw was what he got. Zora was a honorable a man as you could ever meet. He tried to shake it off. According to him it was pretty instinctive to pop back up as soon as possible if there's any thing left tickin'.

But he felt he was pretty fully compromised at that moment.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one. That doesn't mean we shouldn't believe our eyes. he took a dive.

[elmersalsa]

Maybe he took a dive because he felt that he wasn't going to beat The Greatest anyway. Too fast, too young and too strong for him.

Not to take nothing away from Zora Folley, he was a dignified human being and a class act and also a formidable boxer of the 60s decade.

Why did he had a title shot so late? I don't know.

[Ambling Alp II]

Taking a dive. wow. When will the excuse ever stop?

He wins by a decision, it's a bad decision.
By TKO, the ref shouldn't have stopped it.
By KO, the ref counted too fast.
If the opponent's corner stops the fight, he should not have.
If the other guy quits, he should not have.
If all else fails, the other guy took a dive.

Wow.

[evrenb]

He didn't take a dive...ridiculous.

[dagosd2000]

The year was 1968.A close friend of mine and an undefeated amateur heavyweight who I sparred with dozen of times by the name of Gary Young told me he was invited to Phoenix ,Arizona to see if he'd be interested in joining a stable of fighter and turning pro. Gary said he went to lunch with the fighters and managers and joining them was Zora Folley. During lunch Folley commented on his fight with Ali. He said that after a few rounds he knew he couldn't catch up with him..He thought about his age and all the fights he had and his family.He decided that instead of putting his health at risk that when Ali tagged him that he'd go down for the count.Gary said he was very nonchalant talking about it.The fight wasn't fixed but according to Folley he did do the flop.

[evrenb]

The year was 1968.A close friend of mine and an undefeated amateur heavyweight who I sparred with dozen of times by the name of Gary Young told me he was invited to Phoenix ,Arizona to see if he'd be interested in joining a stable of fighter and turning pro. Gary said he went to lunch with the fighters and managers and joining them was Zora Folley. During lunch Folley commented on his fight with Ali. He said that after a few rounds he knew he couldn't catch up with him..He thought about his age and all the fights he had and his family.He decided that instead of putting his health at risk that when Ali tagged him that he'd go down for the count.Gary said he was very nonchalant talking about it.The fight wasn't fixed but according to Folley he did do the flop.

Thanks for that. However this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He was dropped in the fourth and looked out. However He got up and fought back furiously ....Ali flattened him for the count in round 7. He may have laid there yes...

[dagosd2000]

The year was 1968.A close friend of mine and an undefeated amateur heavyweight who I sparred with dozen of times by the name of Gary Young told me he was invited to Phoenix ,Arizona to see if he'd be interested in joining a stable of fighter and turning pro. Gary said he went to lunch with the fighters and managers and joining them was Zora Folley. During lunch Folley commented on his fight with Ali. He said that after a few rounds he knew he couldn't catch up with him..He thought about his age and all the fights he had and his family.He decided that instead of putting his health at risk that when Ali tagged him that he'd go down for the count.Gary said he was very nonchalant talking about it.The fight wasn't fixed but according to Folley he did do the flop.

Thanks for that. However this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He was dropped in the fourth and looked out. However He got up and fought back furiously ....Ali flattened him for the count in round 7. He may have laid there yes...

Folley was no coward but he was also no fool.I posted about this once before awhile back.Folley's son ,who would look at the forum and from time to time post,proudust moment was that his father fought Ali yet came up short. He said his father gave it his all and it was the high water mark of his career in the son's mind.. Of course Folley wouldn't tell his son that he stayed down on purpose. Sometimes I have second thoughts about telling this story but it's not so bad. His son wasn't in the ring taking a beating from The Greatest.

[elmersalsa]

Taking a dive. wow. When will the excuse ever stop?

He wins by a decision, it's a bad decision.
By TKO, the ref shouldn't have stopped it.
By KO, the ref counted too fast.
If the opponent's corner stops the fight, he should not have.
If the other guy quits, he should not have.
If all else fails, the other guy took a dive.

Wow.

That ain't no excuse. What do you want Zora Folley to do? To take more punishment "like a man" and not to enjoy the biggest purse on his retirement?

Not everyone got the capacity of get up. And if he would have gotten up, the worse the beating.

Folley knew after round 4 that it was all over.

[funso banjo baby]

Shipping punches you don't see is always the most frustrating

They didn't have to be Suzie-q's

[dickbelden]

NO---watched the fight live on tv. masterpiece by peak ALI. clean KO!

[Ambling Alp II]

Agreed. He was clearly hurt. Don't how in the world anyone can possibly think that he took a dive.

[elmersalsa]

Agreed. He was clearly hurt. Don't how in the world anyone can possibly think that he took a dive.

You can be hurt and still take a dive. Sometimes taking a dive is not all bad as it seems.

Folley knew that he in no way on earth he would beat Ali. Not even in his wildest dreams.

[evrenb]

Agreed. He was clearly hurt. Don't how in the world anyone can possibly think that he took a dive.

You can be hurt and still take a dive. Sometimes taking a dive is not all bad as it seems.

Folley knew that he in no way on earth he would beat Ali. Not even in his wildest dreams.

I think give up or submit is a better term. Taking a dive is suggestive of fakery and pre conceived intention. If a wrestler is in an armlock, they are beaten and would submit. They aren't taking a dive. They know they are beaten. Perhaps Folley could have beaten 10...perhaps he was just out.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The year was 1968.A close friend of mine and an undefeated amateur heavyweight who I sparred with dozen of times by the name of Gary Young told me he was invited to Phoenix ,Arizona to see if he'd be interested in joining a stable of fighter and turning pro. Gary said he went to lunch with the fighters and managers and joining them was Zora Folley. During lunch Folley commented on his fight with Ali. He said that after a few rounds he knew he couldn't catch up with him..He thought about his age and all the fights he had and his family.He decided that instead of putting his health at risk that when Ali tagged him that he'd go down for the count.Gary said he was very nonchalant talking about it.The fight wasn't fixed but according to Folley he did do the flop.

- - Sounds like a solid 2nd hand story.

Was kid then, but seen Ali in training with Williams and Terrell at the old Astro Hall and been watching his fights on ABC. The Zora fight introduced me to the concept of a "counter puncher," but of course as I later learned, no counter puncher is gonna beat the speedy moving/jabber prime Ali, but I had Zora in a shut out until the first KD. Zora put up a solid fight within his abilities, but rapiered by his end. No shame in calling it a day, however...........

Sonny, Zora, Machen all reported mob fighters met their end by open ended mysteries ca 1970-1972. Liston reportedly abhorred hard drugs done in by overdose while Geraldine was conveniently out of town, Eddie conveniently dropping out of an apartment window Russian style, and Zora cracking his noggin late one night in a supposed empty pool accident.

To Wit per Boxrec:

Folley, the father of nine children, worked as a car salesman in Chandler, Arizona after leaving the ring and was a member of the local city council.

He died in 1972, hitting his head near a motel swimming pool. The police sergeant said Folley had been engaged in some friendly roughhousing, when he fell and struck his head shortly after midnight. Folley, who had been joined by three friends, allegedly was attempting to throw another man in the pool when he slipped. He was rushed to Pima County Hospital for surgery and was pronounced dead 55 minutes after falling. The death was officially ruled an accident, but some are skeptical. A motel clerk on the scene was quoted as saying she, "found him with a large bump on his forehead, a hole on the top of his head and another wound in the back of his head." He is buried at City of Mesa Cemetery in Mesa, Arizona.

Not trying to start an uproar, nor making any claims, and certainly don't want to put you on the spot, but you seem to have some considerable amenable boxing contacts, so if this was ever discussed, perhaps you might wish to weigh in for the benefit of we, the poor, the tired and unwashed masses always on the hunt for the truth

[dagosd2000]

The year was 1968.A close friend of mine and an undefeated amateur heavyweight who I sparred with dozen of times by the name of Gary Young told me he was invited to Phoenix ,Arizona to see if he'd be interested in joining a stable of fighter and turning pro. Gary said he went to lunch with the fighters and managers and joining them was Zora Folley. During lunch Folley commented on his fight with Ali. He said that after a few rounds he knew he couldn't catch up with him..He thought about his age and all the fights he had and his family.He decided that instead of putting his health at risk that when Ali tagged him that he'd go down for the count.Gary said he was very nonchalant talking about it.The fight wasn't fixed but according to Folley he did do the flop.

- - Sounds like a solid 2nd hand story.

Was kid then, but seen Ali in training with Williams and Terrell at the old Astro Hall and been watching his fights on ABC. The Zora fight introduced me to the concept of a "counter puncher," but of course as I later learned, no counter puncher is gonna beat the speedy moving/jabber prime Ali, but I had Zora in a shut out until the first KD. Zora put up a solid fight within his abilities, but rapiered by his end. No shame in calling it a day, however...........

Sonny, Zora, Machen all reported mob fighters met their end by open ended mysteries ca 1970-1972. Liston reportedly abhorred hard drugs done in by overdose while Geraldine was conveniently out of town, Eddie conveniently dropping out of an apartment window Russian style, and Zora cracking his noggin late one night in a supposed empty pool accident.

To Wit per Boxrec:

Folley, the father of nine children, worked as a car salesman in Chandler, Arizona after leaving the ring and was a member of the local city council.

He died in 1972, hitting his head near a motel swimming pool. The police sergeant said Folley had been engaged in some friendly roughhousing, when he fell and struck his head shortly after midnight. Folley, who had been joined by three friends, allegedly was attempting to throw another man in the pool when he slipped. He was rushed to Pima County Hospital for surgery and was pronounced dead 55 minutes after falling. The death was officially ruled an accident, but some are skeptical. A motel clerk on the scene was quoted as saying she, "found him with a large bump on his forehead, a hole on the top of his head and another wound in the back of his head." He is buried at City of Mesa Cemetery in Mesa, Arizona.

Not trying to start an uproar, nor making any claims, and certainly don't want to put you on the spot, but you seem to have some considerable amenable boxing contacts, so if this was ever discussed, perhaps you might wish to weigh in for the benefit of we, the poor, the tired and unwashed masses always on the hunt for the truth

If any of the deaths of those fighters had something to do with the Mob we will never know the truth. I'm sure the guys that whacked them have also been done away with. And the bosses who ordered the hits have also passed along,maybe not as violently,but they are also not with us.

[Caractacus]

wasn't Zora Folley knocked out with a punch that looked a lot like the "Phantom Punch"
that Ali had knocked Liston out with in Lewiston Maine ?

[Caractacus]

[Ambling Alp II]

Well the video you posted clearly shows he got nailed. Do we have to continue with people denying what is right in front of them? Yes, Folley got nailed. Yes, there is climate change. Yes, we have sent men on the moon.

[evrenb]

Well the video you posted clearly shows he got nailed. Do we have to continue with people denying what is right in front of them? Yes, Folley got nailed. Yes, there is climate change. Yes, we have sent men on the moon.

[elmersalsa]

Well the video you posted clearly shows he got nailed. Do we have to continue with people denying what is right in front of them? Yes, Folley got nailed. Yes, there is climate change. Yes, we have sent men on the moon.

I accepted everything you have said, except for the moon part. To me, the flight to the moon was one of the greatest hoaxes of all-time of human kind. But that's for another topic.

[Ambling Alp II]

Why doesn't this surprise me?

[elmersalsa]

Why doesn't this surprise me?

It was a hoax. That's why I believe. That's for another topic. Just move on.

[Caractacus]

That was back in the days when they filmed HW Championship fights with like 35mm
cameras, to be able to show it in theaters across the sea,
especially at Military bases overseas like the NCO club for the servicemen to watch.
Ali vrs Cleveland Williams was also filmed like that.

[JoeCorrao]

Well it was the heavyweight championship of the world when there was only one champion. The challenger was the number one contender. So I am going out on a limb and say it was a big fight.
And no, Folley didn't take a dive.

You have passed judgement! Plenty of dives in boxing history, and this was at the time rumored/hinted/considered a possible dive.