Early 60's seems like a very weak era in boxing where Liston thrived

[HomicideHenry]

I think your sidetrack too much on the simulation.

Eddie machen & Zora Folley & Cleveland Williams & Floyd Patterson.

That's not a top 10 resume to me. plain & simple.

You're welcome to you're option but that's my option. Neither one are facts

I gave several facts outside of simulation..

Sonny Liston is difficult to assess.

Either he was completely undone by Cassius Clay due to a combination of speed and psychological warfare, or he would've gotten exposed sooner or later by someone "man enough" to take the fight to him.

I try to imagine a world where Clay didn't exist and I figure Liston might've not lost until Frazier came around on the scene. We might very well be having the discussion that Liston could've defeated Joe Louis if that alternate reality took place.

I know Rocky Marciano didn't hold Liston up in high esteem, even prior to him losing to Clay. It was something of a self fulfilling prophecy that Marciano made when he declared Liston was a bully who would crumble the moment things didn't go his way.

I think for the most part that is true but at the same time it is also hard for me to imagine Rocky Marciano being able to beat Sonny Liston. I have interviewed Chuck Wepner who fought both George Foreman and Sonny Liston and he always claimed that Liston hit harder.

As far as his resume goes, it's top 15 or 20 worthy.

[Benny The Kid]

I think your sidetrack too much on the simulation.

Eddie machen & Zora Folley & Cleveland Williams & Floyd Patterson.

That's not a top 10 resume to me. plain & simple.

You're welcome to you're option but that's my option. Neither one are facts

I gave several facts outside of simulation..

Sonny Liston is difficult to assess.

Either he was completely undone by Cassius Clay due to a combination of speed and psychological warfare, or he would've gotten exposed sooner or later by someone "man enough" to take the fight to him.

I try to imagine a world where Clay didn't exist and I figure Liston might've not lost until Frazier came around on the scene. We might very well be having the discussion that Liston could've defeated Joe Louis if that alternate reality took place.

I know Rocky Marciano didn't hold Liston up in high esteem, even prior to him losing to Clay. It was something of a self fulfilling prophecy that Marciano made when he declared Liston was a bully who would crumble the moment things didn't go his way.

I think for the most part that is true but at the same time it is also hard for me to imagine Rocky Marciano being able to beat Sonny Liston. I have interviewed Chuck Wepner who fought both George Foreman and Sonny Liston and he always claimed that Liston hit harder.

As far as his resume goes, it's top 15 or 20 worthy.

Thank you sir. That was exactly what i was saying. If Clay didn't exist he would of be exposed sooner than later.. he was made to look better than he was due to the guys he was fighting (the competition level). I don't need simulation to figure that out.. But simulation back ups what i suspected.

That's exactly what I believe also top 15-20 range. By original point is....he shouldn't be a top 10 based on who he beat. Of course he's a top 20.

I would of liked to See Liston vs terell both at prime. Just saying Liston would destroy him mean's nothing to be. It's speculation. No more accurate than simulation or less accurate. Liston missed a few key guy's that would of helped his resume. I realize they sparred. But Terrell improved after that time frame and speculating how the match would of gone contains no facts to me..

I would of liked to see Liston vs Inge too....because He appears just as good or better than Chavalo/machen/folley combo.
Inge obviously avoided a large portion of the competition level. But he may have been better than he appeared based on simulation.

I seen many people give him instant win's over people who he never managed to fight. To me this is where human bias just seems way to convenient for my taste.

[Seamus]

So much of the myth surrounding Sonny Liston comes from unsubstantiated rumors and exaggerated gym tales. Guys were afraid to spar with him, prison guards and cops broke nightsticks over his head and couldn't stop him, Foreman said he'd never beat him, etc, etc. Here's a pretty good article from SI that sums up how good Sonny really was https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/t ... led-liston

[Ambling Alp II]

Read the article carefully.

Liston gets criticized for stopping Besmanoff in 7 rounds, which apparently was too long.
McCarter beat him in the amateurs. so what?
The Marshall loss was his th fight. He had been a pro for year. Marshall was a ranked contender. how many guys take on on ranked contender when they had been a pro for just a year?
He gets criticized for the fights against Folley and Williams, both of whom he stopped early.
If we are this desperate to criticize someone, we can criticize anyone.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think your sidetrack too much on the simulation.

Eddie machen & Zora Folley & Cleveland Williams & Floyd Patterson.

That's not a top 10 resume to me. plain & simple.

You're welcome to you're option but that's my option. Neither one are facts

I gave several facts outside of simulation..

Sonny Liston is difficult to assess.

Either he was completely undone by Cassius Clay due to a combination of speed and psychological warfare, or he would've gotten exposed sooner or later by someone "man enough" to take the fight to him.

I try to imagine a world where Clay didn't exist and I figure Liston might've not lost until Frazier came around on the scene. We might very well be having the discussion that Liston could've defeated Joe Louis if that alternate reality took place.

I know Rocky Marciano didn't hold Liston up in high esteem, even prior to him losing to Clay. It was something of a self fulfilling prophecy that Marciano made when he declared Liston was a bully who would crumble the moment things didn't go his way.

I think for the most part that is true but at the same time it is also hard for me to imagine Rocky Marciano being able to beat Sonny Liston. I have interviewed Chuck Wepner who fought both George Foreman and Sonny Liston and he always claimed that Liston hit harder.

As far as his resume goes, it's top 15 or 20 worthy.

Thank you sir. That was exactly what i was saying. If Clay didn't exist he would of be exposed sooner than later.. he was made to look better than he was due to the guys he was fighting (the competition level). I don't need simulation to figure that out.. But simulation back ups what i suspected.

That's exactly what I believe also top 15-20 range. By original point is....he shouldn't be a top 10 based on who he beat. Of course he's a top 20.

I would of liked to See Liston vs terell both at prime. Just saying Liston would destroy him mean's nothing to be. It's speculation. No more accurate than simulation or less accurate. Liston missed a few key guy's that would of helped his resume. I realize they sparred. But Terrell improved after that time frame and speculating how the match would of gone contains no facts to me..

I would of liked to see Liston vs Inge too....because He appears just as good or better than Chavalo/machen/folley combo.
Inge obviously avoided a large portion of the competition level. But he may have been better than he appeared based on simulation.

I seen many people give him instant win's over people who he never managed to fight. To me this is where human bias just seems way to convenient for my taste.

Sure, Liston could have been exposed later. By whom? He would have been the champion for at least a few more years if Ali never existed.

Amazing that Liston of all people gets criticized for weak competition. He had win s over several ranked contenders before he ever got a title shot. Destroyed a decent champion to win the title. Gave him a rematch.

I didn't know about the instant wins over guys he never fought. (on the Mythical fights Section, guys routinely are picked to defeat guys who were far better than anyone they beat in real life. Don't see that with Liston.)

Liston managed to fight the best that were around, except for Johannson who wanted no part of him.

I don't have him quite in the top 10 myself. However, it certainly is arguable. He has to be close.

Look at all of the heavyweights that you could possibly have over him:

Ali
Louis
Foreman
Frazier
Holmes
Johnson
Holyfield
Lewis
Marciano
Tyson
Dempsey
Jeffries
Dempsey

That is only 12 guys. Liston can't possibly be any worse than #13, and that's pushing it.

Liston beat better competition on his way up than just about anyone.
Unlike some of the above, he never had an embarrassing loss to a lesser fighter anywhere remotely close to his prime.
Where should Patterson be? Has to be Top 25. He was better than most of the greats had to beat to win the title. Liston has to be well ahead of him.

[gilgamesh]

You can criticize anyone. This site has proven that.

There's always someone that was rooting for the other guy in a big fight, and will downplay even the most significant of accomplishments.

[Seamus]

Liston was a pretty good heavyweight, had decent power, a good jab, solid chin, but like I've been saying for so long, for many guys his skills have been exaggerated to mythic proportions.

[gilgamesh]

Liston was a pretty good heavyweight, had decent power, a good jab, solid chin, but like I've been saying for so long, for many guys his skills have been exaggerated to mythic proportions.

I'll tell you one example where his skills got exaggerated a little that I disagreed with.

Quite a few years back Ring did this magazine where they matched ATG's from different eras, and played around with the idea of what would happen in the fight. I remember one of 'em was Sonny Liston vs Evander Holyfield, and they had Sonny winning a close, controversial decision over Holyfield.

Personally, I think Holyfield would just kick Liston's ass and it wouldn't be particularly close.

[Seamus]

We've had guys on Boxrec saying Sonny would stop Evander, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis,Tyson the Klitschko's etc even beat Ali if he was a little younger.

[gilgamesh]

We've had guys on Boxrec saying Sonny would stop Evander, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis,Tyson the Klitschko's etc even beat Ali if he was a little younger.

Well with one poster in particular Granberry I think it was. That dude thought literally everyone could beat Ali, and everyone he ever achieved as a fluke or something

Some people are just silly.

Let's be clear here though. Liston is no pushover. That being said I think there's a fair amount of dudes that could've beaten him even at his best. I suspect he'd be a difficult night at the very least for most people.

[Syntax Error]

I realize there may have been some weaker era's in history. But this seems like one of the worst.

When i combined every era against each other in simulation & I made a Top 60 boxer's.
This era had some struggles.

First off I just knock off some of the top guy's for the moment. Patterson/Liston/Terrell.

Because ultimately what I'm most interested in is how DEEP the division is in an era.

For a modern era like the 60's this is "home" of the undersized Heavyweights for the most part.

Zora Folley 6' 1" 195
Eddie machen 6'0" 195
Henry Cooper 6'1" 190
Karl Mildenberger 6'1" 195
Robert Cleroux 6 1" 205
Inge Johanson 6'0" 202
Floyd Patterson 6'0" 195
Doug Jones 6'0" 185

and finally a big fighter
Cleveland William's 6'2" 215

This group (later 60's aside) has a terrible time in simulation tournament making top 60 all time heavyweights.

With a cutoff range of around Elmer Ray#61 and Gerry Cooney #62

Only Cleveland Williams #55 and Inge #58 manage to get inside the top 60. Patterson does at #43

Again i'm taking early 60's so not counting Ernie Terrell.

None of these others are able to get in.

I just find it really suspect that some view Sonny Liston as a top flight boxer making his mark against such an undersized group of boxers.

I don't have much esteem for Machen or Folley, many of the better fighter's he just missed (terrell, Inge) could he have beaten them. Sure.

But for a top flight heavyweight who's biggest claim is a quick non competitive fight's against Patterson (the only top 50) win.

I just am under the impression he was made to look better than he actually was by beating up on very inferior competition level.

Of course many other heavyweight's can fall into this problem (Dempsey).

But quality win's over a Cleveland Williams & a destruction of a Floyd Patterson is in no way the resume for a top flight heavyweight to me.

People seem too rate him on what he was capable of...
many people are capable of many thing's.
To me his resume is not very impressive.
Sure he was avoided by some, and has every excuse in the book applied to him in the Ali fights.
But he quit on his stool as champion.
But if that's his best win's
It's not very much to me.

Basing his rating on "potential" seems rather pointless.

I realize simulation isn't any kind of exact science but it's still a tool that can be utilized.
Neither Folley or Machen rank out as good as Elmer Ray.
The guy's before the early 60's era can beat them and most of their peers
You would think as humans developed the boxer of the 60's would appear much bigger than say a Jack Sharkey
but that's not the case...
Sharkey & Schmeling are far far better than Folley & machen in simulation. All similar size.

You make some good points in all honesty.

I think I agree with most of your summation.

There is so much mythology around Sonny Liston that it's sometimes hard to separate the fact from the fiction.

Liston himself wasn't a very big, but is somehow portrayed as a monster.

His reach was exaggerated at 84 inches, when it was probably closer to 80 inches (I saw it listed as 80.5 against Leotis Martin).

Of course, his losses to Ali enhance the myth and legend surrounding him.

Even his age is surrounded in myth and legend.

Liston was obviously a very good fighter, but he probably wasn't quite as great as he is portrayed.

[Ambling Alp II]

We've had guys on Boxrec saying Sonny would stop Evander, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis,Tyson the Klitschko's etc even beat Ali if he was a little younger.

Well with one poster in particular Granberry I think it was. That dude thought literally everyone could beat Ali, and everyone he ever achieved as a fluke or something

Some people are just silly.

Let's be clear here though. Liston is no pushover. That being said I think there's a fair amount of dudes that could've beaten him even at his best. I suspect he'd be a difficult night at the very least for most people.

A fair amount of dudes? Certainly can't be more than a dozen or so who would have had a better than even chance. On a given night a few more would have had a chance. Then again, outside of Ali, he would have had at least an outside chance against anyone and would have probably given them a tough fight. Holyfield might have beaten Liston, but there is no way in the world that he would have kicked Liston's ass.

But again, we all keep going back to speculation. Outside of beating Ali, what more was Liston supposed to have done?

Evander had way too much trouble with ancient Foreman and ancient Holmes.
Foreman lost to Young.
Frazier got crushed by Foreman.
Lewis got stooped by Rahman and McCall, was lucky to get a decision against past it Holyfield in the rematch, lucky to get a draw against Mercer.
Tyson got ko'd by Douglas.
etc. etc.

Liston doesn't have bad losses like that. He fought the best around and beat most of them handily. Not saying that he was better than these guys, but he couldn't have been that far behind.
He wasn't best and nobody is saying he was. However, there can't possibly be more than 12 guys better than him.

[gilgamesh]

In head to head matches there's likely more than 12 guys throughout Boxing history that could beat him, but Liston would definitely be a favorite or at least a 50/50 matchup with any Champion that came before him, and many that came after.

All the weak paper Champions of the 80's would've gotten their ass handed to 'em by Liston.

Liston vs Tyson both in their primes is an interesting match to ponder.

[Syntax Error]

In head to head matches there's likely more than 12 guys throughout Boxing history that could beat him, but Liston would definitely be a favorite or at least a 50/50 matchup with any Champion that came before him, and many that came after.

All the weak paper Champions of the 80's would've gotten their ass handed to 'em by Liston.

Liston vs Tyson both in their primes is an interesting match to ponder.

Liston V Tyson would have been interesting indeed.

Iron Mike himself cites Liston as one guy he could not envisage himself winning against.

That's quite telling because Tyson has an encyclopaedic knowledge of boxing and he has studied the greats in detail and for him to pick out Liston out of all that have gone before or since was quite surprising to me.

[Ambling Alp II]

You never know when a guy says something like that. Was he just trying to show respect, or did he really mean it?
I think Liston-Tyson is a tossup. They have to be ranked very close.
Before Liston, Louis was clearly better and would probably have beaten him. Johnson, Marciano, Jeffries and Dempsey would have been interesting.

After his own time, (not including Ali) Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis, and Bowe would have a better than 50-50 chance. That's it.

[Caractacus]

Tyson would have never gotten by Liston's jab.

[Cojimar 1946]

We've had guys on Boxrec saying Sonny would stop Evander, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis,Tyson the Klitschko's etc even beat Ali if he was a little younger.

Well with one poster in particular Granberry I think it was. That dude thought literally everyone could beat Ali, and everyone he ever achieved as a fluke or something

Some people are just silly.

Let's be clear here though. Liston is no pushover. That being said I think there's a fair amount of dudes that could've beaten him even at his best. I suspect he'd be a difficult night at the very least for most people.

A fair amount of dudes? Certainly can't be more than a dozen or so who would have had a better than even chance. On a given night a few more would have had a chance. Then again, outside of Ali, he would have had at least an outside chance against anyone and would have probably given them a tough fight. Holyfield might have beaten Liston, but there is no way in the world that he would have kicked Liston's ass.

But again, we all keep going back to speculation. Outside of beating Ali, what more was Liston supposed to have done?

Evander had way too much trouble with ancient Foreman and ancient Holmes.
Foreman lost to Young.
Frazier got crushed by Foreman.
Lewis got stooped by Rahman and McCall, was lucky to get a decision against past it Holyfield in the rematch, lucky to get a draw against Mercer.
Tyson got ko'd by Douglas.
etc. etc.

Liston doesn't have bad losses like that. He fought the best around and beat most of them handily. Not saying that he was better than these guys, but he couldn't have been that far behind.
He wasn't best and nobody is saying he was. However, there can't possibly be more than 12 guys better than him.

How do fights against guys who were light heavyweights by today's standards give us insight as to how he does against Lewis who was like 45 pounds heavier than Machen, Folley, etc. It would be like saying Beterbiev beats Bowe based on beating Joe Smith.

And Liston could have beaten Terrell, Johansson,Cooper, Chuvalo, etc.

[Caractacus]

I think a lot of those boxers mentioned were born during "The Great Depression".
The population of the USA back then was less then half of what it is now.

Also you forgotten to mention
Nino Vales
Mike DeJohn

[Ambling Alp II]

Well with one poster in particular Granberry I think it was. That dude thought literally everyone could beat Ali, and everyone he ever achieved as a fluke or something

Some people are just silly.

Let's be clear here though. Liston is no pushover. That being said I think there's a fair amount of dudes that could've beaten him even at his best. I suspect he'd be a difficult night at the very least for most people.

A fair amount of dudes? Certainly can't be more than a dozen or so who would have had a better than even chance. On a given night a few more would have had a chance. Then again, outside of Ali, he would have had at least an outside chance against anyone and would have probably given them a tough fight. Holyfield might have beaten Liston, but there is no way in the world that he would have kicked Liston's ass.

But again, we all keep going back to speculation. Outside of beating Ali, what more was Liston supposed to have done?

Evander had way too much trouble with ancient Foreman and ancient Holmes.
Foreman lost to Young.
Frazier got crushed by Foreman.
Lewis got stooped by Rahman and McCall, was lucky to get a decision against past it Holyfield in the rematch, lucky to get a draw against Mercer.
Tyson got ko'd by Douglas.
etc. etc.

Liston doesn't have bad losses like that. He fought the best around and beat most of them handily. Not saying that he was better than these guys, but he couldn't have been that far behind.
He wasn't best and nobody is saying he was. However, there can't possibly be more than 12 guys better than him.

How do fights against guys who were light heavyweights by today's standards give us insight as to how he does against Lewis who was like 45 pounds heavier than Machen, Folley, etc. It would be like saying Beterbiev beats Bowe based on beating Joe Smith.

And Liston could have beaten Terrell, Johansson,Cooper, Chuvalo, etc.

Really don't know what you are talking about. Everyone mentioned was well above 175 for most of their careers.

[Cojimar 1946]

A fair amount of dudes? Certainly can't be more than a dozen or so who would have had a better than even chance. On a given night a few more would have had a chance. Then again, outside of Ali, he would have had at least an outside chance against anyone and would have probably given them a tough fight. Holyfield might have beaten Liston, but there is no way in the world that he would have kicked Liston's ass.

But again, we all keep going back to speculation. Outside of beating Ali, what more was Liston supposed to have done?

Evander had way too much trouble with ancient Foreman and ancient Holmes.
Foreman lost to Young.
Frazier got crushed by Foreman.
Lewis got stooped by Rahman and McCall, was lucky to get a decision against past it Holyfield in the rematch, lucky to get a draw against Mercer.
Tyson got ko'd by Douglas.
etc. etc.

Liston doesn't have bad losses like that. He fought the best around and beat most of them handily. Not saying that he was better than these guys, but he couldn't have been that far behind.
He wasn't best and nobody is saying he was. However, there can't possibly be more than 12 guys better than him.

How do fights against guys who were light heavyweights by today's standards give us insight as to how he does against Lewis who was like 45 pounds heavier than Machen, Folley, etc. It would be like saying Beterbiev beats Bowe based on beating Joe Smith.

And Liston could have beaten Terrell, Johansson,Cooper, Chuvalo, etc.

Really don't know what you are talking about. Everyone mentioned was well above 175 for most of their careers.

Recent light heavyweights enter the ring far over 175 and are naturally as big or bigger than the guys Liston fought. Commonly they fight in the 180s and 190s and only make 175 by drying out.

Zurdo Ramirez who just lost to Bivol probably entered the ring heavier than Machen, Folley or Patterson did vs Liston but people are not claiming he could beat Tyson or Holyfield

[Ambling Alp II]

I know the thing where a guy supposedly weighs 193 or something, loses the weight to get to 175 at the weigh in, then somehow gains 18 pounds back something in less than 24 hours after the weigh in. Whatever. Machen, Folley, and Patterson would not be light heavyweights if they fought today.

[Cojimar 1946]

I know the thing where a guy supposedly weighs 193 or something, loses the weight to get to 175 at the weigh in, then somehow gains 18 pounds back something in less than 24 hours after the weigh in. Whatever. Machen, Folley, and Patterson would not be light heavyweights if they fought today.

Most guys their size are fighting at light heavyweight so that's logically where you would expect them to fight today. They were generally fighting guys their own size anyway in their own era not giants like Fury and Wladimir.

Fighting guys like Machen and Folley would seem to give us very little insight into how Liston would do against a Tyson or Holyfield. We have no idea how Liston would handle Tyson's power given none of the guys he fought seem anywhere in Tyson's league in terms of power.

[Benny The Kid]

I know the thing where a guy supposedly weighs 193 or something, loses the weight to get to 175 at the weigh in, then somehow gains 18 pounds back something in less than 24 hours after the weigh in. Whatever. Machen, Folley, and Patterson would not be light heavyweights if they fought today.

Most guys their size are fighting at light heavyweight so that's logically where you would expect them to fight today. They were generally fighting guys their own size anyway in their own era not giants like Fury and Wladimir.

Fighting guys like Machen and Folley would seem to give us very little insight into how Liston would do against a Tyson or Holyfield. We have no idea how Liston would handle Tyson's power given none of the guys he fought seem anywhere in Tyson's league in terms of power.

I agree with this. It's kinda what my point was, outside of Cleveland Williams he fought nobody with any real power or size.


Holyfield & Tyson are both well ahead of Liston in simulation. Liston had struggles with confidence in simulation particularly in rematches where he lost the first fight. The possibility of this happening in real fights seems likely to me. Our only example is the 2nd Ali fight where Liston lost the first fight. I think this is a very unfair example to use for Liston, but the possibility still lingers that he could have a big problem with this...

Holyfeild was excellent in rematches in simulation. Big difference. It's the difference separating greatness. One fighter from another.

Furthermore, with Liston we have the issue of his own confidence. He seemed to really fold under pressure in Ali fight. Was it an abnormality? perhaps. But him specifically i question whether he had the fortitude to compete in a big fight where thing's dont go his way immediately I can't see him having the fortitude to best Holyfield or Tyson. Most of the time Liston didn't get up from knockdowns. That overhand right From Leotis had a much more modern look to it, like an 80's fighter (not a 60's). I seriously question how good he could deal with adversity and weather his chin was capable when he hit the deck he usually looked mentally spent completely in his losses.

Him beating up on Machen & Folley gives us very little insight into how he would do against someone much more formidable. Very well said.

[Controversial]

This is why it's unfair to compare eras, you can only compete with who is around you, so fighters need to be rated on what they did at that particular time. I think where some people go wrong is they assume because a fighter was great in one era then that means they would be great in all the others. As much as some people argue the toss this can come down to pure differences in size or that some eras the overall quality of the fighters was better than other eras. Of course some fighters would be great in all eras but not all. There is a difference between head to head matchups and ranking a fighter for their overall achievements.

[pound per pound]

I realize there may have been some weaker era's in history. But this seems like one of the worst.

When i combined every era against each other in simulation & I made a Top 60 boxer's.
This era had some struggles.

First off I just knock off some of the top guy's for the moment. Patterson/Liston/Terrell.

Because ultimately what I'm most interested in is how DEEP the division is in an era.

For a modern era like the 60's this is "home" of the undersized Heavyweights for the most part.

Zora Folley 6' 1" 195
Eddie machen 6'0" 195
Henry Cooper 6'1" 190
Karl Mildenberger 6'1" 195
Robert Cleroux 6 1" 205
Inge Johanson 6'0" 202
Floyd Patterson 6'0" 195
Doug Jones 6'0" 185

and finally a big fighter
Cleveland William's 6'2" 215

This group (later 60's aside) has a terrible time in simulation tournament making top 60 all time heavyweights.

With a cutoff range of around Elmer Ray#61 and Gerry Cooney #62

Only Cleveland Williams #55 and Inge #58 manage to get inside the top 60. Patterson does at #43

Again i'm taking early 60's so not counting Ernie Terrell.

None of these others are able to get in.

I just find it really suspect that some view Sonny Liston as a top flight boxer making his mark against such an undersized group of boxers.

I don't have much esteem for Machen or Folley, many of the better fighter's he just missed (terrell, Inge) could he have beaten them. Sure.

But for a top flight heavyweight who's biggest claim is a quick non competitive fight's against Patterson (the only top 50) win.

I just am under the impression he was made to look better than he actually was by beating up on very inferior competition level.

Of course many other heavyweight's can fall into this problem (Dempsey).

But quality win's over a Cleveland Williams & a destruction of a Floyd Patterson is in no way the resume for a top flight heavyweight to me.

People seem too rate him on what he was capable of...
many people are capable of many thing's.
To me his resume is not very impressive.
Sure he was avoided by some, and has every excuse in the book applied to him in the Ali fights.
But he quit on his stool as champion.
But if that's his best win's
It's not very much to me.

Basing his rating on "potential" seems rather pointless.

I realize simulation isn't any kind of exact science but it's still a tool that can be utilized.
Neither Folley or Machen rank out as good as Elmer Ray.
The guy's before the early 60's era can beat them and most of their peers
You would think as humans developed the boxer of the 60's would appear much bigger than say a Jack Sharkey
but that's not the case...
Sharkey & Schmeling are far far better than Folley & machen in simulation. All similar size.

After Marciano and before Ali is the time Sonny was king of the ring. I was a time of mostly modern cruiser weights and Liston was a dominant true heavyweight size puncher with skills and an 80+ inch reach. I agree that his resume aside for Paterson and Williams is not great or even good. But he sure looked like a real force vs these sometimes shall we say weak chined or non punchers,