Early 60's seems like a very weak era in boxing where Liston thrived

[HomicideHenry]

Size and weight only play a part up to a point. At certain point, size stops being an advantage. At a later point, it actually becomes a disadvantage. People that pontificating on theories, should actually look at what happens in the real world, they will see this.

Look at basic facts:
When a great fighter under 200 fights a guy 220, he wins almost every time. More 90%
The biggest heavyweight at any point in boxing history has never been the best heavyweight. Not one time.

Look at other sports if that helps. an ideal quarterback probably isn't going to weight 180 pounds. He isn't going to weight 300 either.

In basketball, height helps, at least to a [point. but the tallest guy is almost never the best players. We need to llok at what actually happens and get away from the size nonsense.

How do we talk about two guys and discuss their power, speed, defense chin etc. If it comes out about even, then they are about even. However, some people will then say something like" yeah, but fighter B would have a 40-pound advantage. That is just stupid thinking. In basketball, if 2 are about even guys shooting, rebounding, passing, defense etc. we say that the two guys are even. Not "well yeah, but player is 6 inches taller' .

As for sonny Liston, may he wasn't as good as say Mike Tyson. But to dismiss him because supposedly his era was weak is just silly. Name one win that Tyson ever had that Liston wouldn't have? Just one.

Since Mike Spinks every heavyeight champion has been about 220 - 270 pounds. You don't see any 180- 200 pound men doing well in boxing for 35+ years at heavyweight. Why? The answer is obvious

Size when combined with good ring skills is too much for modern athletes to overcome. Yeah if you go back in history 50+ years you can see a legendary popluar heavywieght champion beating the tar out of a guy mild to no skills guy who wouldn't be not be ranked today. Yet men this size ( 180-200 ) pounds are mostly on black and white film and do not veneture into the modern heavyweight divison which if you use the box rec rankings today as a judge they are mostly 240+ pound men, with the exception of Usky who is 220.

As time has passed boxing has added the modern cruiser weight division and the bridge weight division. IMO, MMA has a better break down of it's size and weight classes. It is what it is. Check the link out.

https://www.abcboxing.com/unified-weight-classes-mma/

-P4P

Roy Jones was heavyweight champion and weighed about 196. His skills thoroughly dominated John Ruiz, who was powerful enough to wrestle monsters Valuev, McCline, Rahman, Golota et al. He could handle size. Pumped up small guys with speed - RJJ, Toney and Haye - utterly bedevilled him.

Ruiz was also purposely picked because he was the weakest link in the alphabet chain. He was a legit top 5 guy, yes, but in an incredibly weak era of heavyweights.

[Controversial]

Yes RJJ didn't hang about to fight the likes of Tyson or Lewis. Ruiz wasn't the biggest guy himself either, he was physically slightly smaller than Holyfield and style wise was made for a fast and elusive fighter like Jones.

[Cojimar 1946]

It's a shame no one told those 60s guys to get 30lbs overweight because in the future people on the internet will equate being heavy with being good.

But many of them are not overweight. I think this notion the division is week is coming from nostalgia/nationalism or frustration with big fights not getting made. If heavyweight was poor we would expect to see far more guys from lower divisions moving up to dominate at heavyweight but we don't.

[Controversial]

It's a shame no one told those 60s guys to get 30lbs overweight because in the future people on the internet will equate being heavy with being good.

But many of them are not overweight. I think this notion the division is week is coming from nostalgia/nationalism or frustration with big fights not getting made. If heavyweight was poor we would expect to see far more guys from lower divisions moving up to dominate at heavyweight but we don't.

Ironically we recently saw Joe Joyce criticised for coming in too light against Zhang and Joyce was over 18 stone.

[Benny The Kid]

It's a shame no one told those 60s guys to get 30lbs overweight because in the future people on the internet will equate being heavy with being good.

But many of them are not overweight. I think this notion the division is week is coming from nostalgia/nationalism or frustration with big fights not getting made. If heavyweight was poor we would expect to see far more guys from lower divisions moving up to dominate at heavyweight but we don't.

I liked this comment. You summed it up very accurately. Usyk did but not alot of others.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't equate being heavy with being good. Or being tall with being good. But if you have a combination of size with skills, conditioning, heart and determination you're going to be problematic for comparatively smaller, quicker men no matter how skilled they are.

I used to say a long time ago that 6'3" and 220 basically all the size a heavyweight would ever need. You're big enough at that point to overcome a lot of physical disadvantages. But those guys when they encounter (albeit rarely) someone 6'5"+ and 240+ who is also skilled, and are uniquely gifted with ring IQ or athleticism tend to end up on the losing end.

Holyfield lost to Lewis and Bowe. David Haye lost to Wladimir Klitschko. Tomasz Adamek lost to Vitali Klitschko. Etc. It's all about equal or near equal abilities or capabilities beyond the size differential.

I've never quite bought into the comparisons that people like to do with football or basketball, where they talk about quarterbacks are optimally a certain size, all the while not being "fair" in the debate because in team sports there are specific positions in the game--- therefore it would not make sense to have a lard ass as a quarterback, etc. In boxing there is no such thing as different positions requiring different sizes to be optimally the best or near best.

[Ambling Alp II]

You are being very selective.
Holyfield was well past it when he fought Lewis and easily could have got the decision in the second fight. Holyfield did win the 2nd fight against Bowe.
Byrd beat Vitaly Klitschko.
Usyk beat Joshua.

To this day, Lewis (and Bowe for shorter amount of time) are still the only great heavyweights that were big.

In the end, we need to forget about the weight and look at how good they are.

In basketball if two guys have similar stats and one guy is 6 inches taller, we say the guys are about even. For whatever stupid reason, in boxing, people want to then factor in the weight after that. Makes no sense. And of course the extra weight is automatically all good. The weight helped you hurt you, n or neither. You don't add it in against.

If small guy has a lot of power, so be it.
If a bug guy is quick, so be it. Just what they do, not what what needle on the scale says.

[HomicideHenry]

You are being very selective.
Holyfield was well past it when he fought Lewis and easily could have got the decision in the second fight. Holyfield did win the 2nd fight against Bowe.
Byrd beat Vitaly Klitschko.
Usyk beat Joshua.

To this day, Lewis (and Bowe for shorter amount of time) are still the only great heavyweights that were big.

In the end, we need to forget about the weight and look at how good they are.

In basketball if two guys have similar stats and one guy is 6 inches taller, we say the guys are about even. For whatever stupid reason, in boxing, people want to then factor in the weight after that. Makes no sense. And of course the extra weight is automatically all good. The weight helped you hurt you, n or neither. You don't add it in against.

If small guy has a lot of power, so be it.
If a bug guy is quick, so be it. Just what they do, not what what needle on the scale says.

If that is the case then why does it not happen anymore on a regular basis? It simply doesn't happen. And again it's all about skills and everything else that goes with the size.

Joshua was NEVERRRRRRR in the same league as Usyk. No man who could lose to Andy Ruiz is. So it's basically an A+ fighter beating a B fighter who lost to a C level fighter in the case of Usyk vs Joshua.

I don't want to hear about Byrd Vitali won virtually every second, and he quit strictly because of an injury. Had he not had the injury he would have won the fight easily by lop sided decision. So you can't use it as an argument.

Holyfield was "well passed it" against Lewis? I don't know how you figure it when he was a world champion too and fought on as a top ten guy for nearly twenty years after the fact? Was there a drop off? Sure. But "well passed it"? I don't think so.

[HomicideHenry]

As for this....

In basketball if two guys have similar stats and one guy is 6 inches taller, we say the guys are about even.

For whatever stupid reason, in boxing, people want to then factor in the weight after that. Makes no sense.

And of course the extra weight is automatically all good.

The weight helped you hurt you, n or neither. You don't add it in against.

1- Tell that to someone like Magic Johnson (6'8"-6'9") when he played against the 40'something Wilt Chamberlain (7'1") and his sky hook kept getting blocked. Similar stats, both HOF'ers.... there's a 5" height difference, not including the weight and age difference.



2- It makes sense considering we are a sport that has not only weight classes, rehydration and dehydration techniques, and an unlimited weight class (heavyweight). You have to account for weight either in the positive or in the negative. A negative example would be Buster Douglas getting hog fat in his fight with Evander Holyfield. Clearly it was of no benefit. There's healthy weight gains versus unhealthy weight gains, etc.

3- No, it's not automatically good. Not just me but several others have said that height and weight mean nothing without skills, conditioning, heart and determination. Throw in athleticism too. You cannot tell me a guy like Primo Carnera (6'5" 260) or Jess Willard (6'6" 240) has the same kind of athleticism as say Deontay Wilder or Anthony Joshua. Maybe if they were as athletic they might've went farther than they did.

4- Weight can hurt you (ie, Wilder in the 3rd fight with Fury) but it's also avoiding the issue: If you have two boxers of same value and skill facing each other and one happens to be taller or heavier, more times than not the taller and heavier man wins UNLESS that man is beginning to fade as an athlete and becomes easier to hit and out maneuver.

[Controversial]

If small guy has a lot of power, so be it.
If a bug guy is quick, so be it. Just what they do, not what what needle on the scale says.

Why don’t we use Canelo as an example. A smaller skilled guy who has gone through the weights and been successful. He’s knocked out Kovalev who was a legit world class LHW in a title fight and Canelo also spars HWs. Kovalev would have likely boxed at HW back in the days before the CW division and when the smaller HWs reigned.

I’m sure they could find HWs today that Canelo could beat. If Burley could knockout a HW 70lbs heavier than him then I’m sure Canelo could. No different to a lot of the smaller guys in history who beat bigger HWs.

So if Canelo could beat some HWs now what would stop him beating the best HWs around, lack of skill or size? After all Canelo is far more skilled than Wilder.

[Riddick Bowie]

If small guy has a lot of power, so be it.
If a bug guy is quick, so be it. Just what they do, not what what needle on the scale says.

Why don’t we use Canelo as an example. A smaller skilled guy who has gone through the weights and been successful. He’s knocked out Kovalev who was a legit world class LHW in a title fight and Canelo also spars HWs. Kovalev would have likely boxed at HW back in the days before the CW division and when the smaller HWs reigned.

I’m sure they could find HWs today that Canelo could beat. If Burley could knockout a HW 70lbs heavier than him then I’m sure Canelo could. No different to a lot of the smaller guys in history who beat bigger HWs.

So if Canelo could beat some HWs now what would stop him beating the best HWs around, lack of skill or size? After all Canelo is far more skilled than Wilder.

Because Canelo doesn't need to take the risk. There's way more titles and money and options than there were in the old days. Canelo can make a fortune fighting hand-picked opponents twice a year.

People forget that the old timers didn't have so many options, they had to chase the money. Nowadays it's only great men with balls looking for a challenge who do it. Spinks, Jones, Toney and Usyk aren't ordinary men and we shouldn't be surprised fewer small guys go for glory at heavy with so many divisions and belts now.

[Controversial]

If small guy has a lot of power, so be it.
If a bug guy is quick, so be it. Just what they do, not what what needle on the scale says.

Why don’t we use Canelo as an example. A smaller skilled guy who has gone through the weights and been successful. He’s knocked out Kovalev who was a legit world class LHW in a title fight and Canelo also spars HWs. Kovalev would have likely boxed at HW back in the days before the CW division and when the smaller HWs reigned.

I’m sure they could find HWs today that Canelo could beat. If Burley could knockout a HW 70lbs heavier than him then I’m sure Canelo could. No different to a lot of the smaller guys in history who beat bigger HWs.

So if Canelo could beat some HWs now what would stop him beating the best HWs around, lack of skill or size? After all Canelo is far more skilled than Wilder.

Because Canelo doesn't need to take the risk. There's way more titles and money and options than there were in the old days. Canelo can make a fortune fighting hand-picked opponents twice a year.

People forget that the old timers didn't have so many options, they had to chase the money. Nowadays it's only great men with balls looking for a challenge who do it. Spinks, Jones, Toney and Usyk aren't ordinary men and we shouldn't be surprised fewer small guys go for glory at heavy with so many divisions and belts now.

No you are misunderstanding my post, I'm not asking why Canelo doesn't fight at HW. My point is Canelo could beat some HWs even weighing in at 170lbs. So if in theory Canelo could beat some HWs, why couldn't he beat the best around as well? Not skilled enough or not big enough?

[Riddick Bowie]

Why don’t we use Canelo as an example. A smaller skilled guy who has gone through the weights and been successful. He’s knocked out Kovalev who was a legit world class LHW in a title fight and Canelo also spars HWs. Kovalev would have likely boxed at HW back in the days before the CW division and when the smaller HWs reigned.

I’m sure they could find HWs today that Canelo could beat. If Burley could knockout a HW 70lbs heavier than him then I’m sure Canelo could. No different to a lot of the smaller guys in history who beat bigger HWs.

So if Canelo could beat some HWs now what would stop him beating the best HWs around, lack of skill or size? After all Canelo is far more skilled than Wilder.

Because Canelo doesn't need to take the risk. There's way more titles and money and options than there were in the old days. Canelo can make a fortune fighting hand-picked opponents twice a year.

People forget that the old timers didn't have so many options, they had to chase the money. Nowadays it's only great men with balls looking for a challenge who do it. Spinks, Jones, Toney and Usyk aren't ordinary men and we shouldn't be surprised fewer small guys go for glory at heavy with so many divisions and belts now.

No you are misunderstanding my post, I'm not asking why Canelo doesn't fight at HW. My point is Canelo could beat some HWs even weighing in at 170lbs. So if in theory Canelo could beat some HWs, why couldn't he beat the best around as well? Not skilled enough or not big enough?

Fair enough, I'd say Canelo being a pumped up welter (and a fairly squat one at that) would be up against it because he wouldn't be able to hurt some big heavies, but that's outside my purview. I just tire of the concept of guys in the 190 range circa 6 foot not being able to handle big heavies given the limitations of big heavies and the fact we've seen skill win out over bulk so many times. The failings of Carlos DeLeon and his cruiser hombres doesn't disprove this because they were all mediocre anyway. Why since the 80s most fighters in that range have been poor we can argue, but it doesn't follow that similar sized men of yore were poor. Modern American heavies are awful, but that has no bearing on Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Frazier, Ali etc etc for obvious reasons.

[Controversial]

Interestingly I've been listening to Malik Scott being interviewed at length about his life and career and he said that Lewis and Klitschko were the first big HWs. He described himself as having a small frame (said he had smallish hands and forearms and no punch) and he wasn't that big naturally. He said he sparred Lewis when he had about 7 pro fights and said he could feel the difference in size and power. Malik Scott is 6'5" with an 81" reach and weighed over 250lbs in one fight and even he mentioned differences in power and size when most of us would consider him to be huge.

[Controversial]

Because Canelo doesn't need to take the risk. There's way more titles and money and options than there were in the old days. Canelo can make a fortune fighting hand-picked opponents twice a year.

People forget that the old timers didn't have so many options, they had to chase the money. Nowadays it's only great men with balls looking for a challenge who do it. Spinks, Jones, Toney and Usyk aren't ordinary men and we shouldn't be surprised fewer small guys go for glory at heavy with so many divisions and belts now.

No you are misunderstanding my post, I'm not asking why Canelo doesn't fight at HW. My point is Canelo could beat some HWs even weighing in at 170lbs. So if in theory Canelo could beat some HWs, why couldn't he beat the best around as well? Not skilled enough or not big enough?

Fair enough, I'd say Canelo being a pumped up welter (and a fairly squat one at that) would be up against it because he wouldn't be able to hurt some big heavies, but that's outside my purview. I just tire of the concept of guys in the 190 range circa 6 foot not being able to handle big heavies given the limitations of big heavies and the fact we've seen skill win out over bulk so many times. The failings of Carlos DeLeon and his cruiser hombres doesn't disprove this because they were all mediocre anyway. Why since the 80s most fighters in that range have been poor we can argue, but it doesn't follow that similar sized men of yore were poor. Modern American heavies are awful, but that has no bearing on Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Frazier, Ali etc etc for obvious reasons.

Sam Langford started as a lightweight and fought up to HW and he was smaller than Canelo. Based on that some people think he would beat the HWs of today. For me there is little difference to what Langford did compared to what Canelo has done yet no one would give Canelo a chance against Wilder. And Wilder is one of the most technically limited HWs there is.

[Riddick Bowie]

No you are misunderstanding my post, I'm not asking why Canelo doesn't fight at HW. My point is Canelo could beat some HWs even weighing in at 170lbs. So if in theory Canelo could beat some HWs, why couldn't he beat the best around as well? Not skilled enough or not big enough?

Fair enough, I'd say Canelo being a pumped up welter (and a fairly squat one at that) would be up against it because he wouldn't be able to hurt some big heavies, but that's outside my purview. I just tire of the concept of guys in the 190 range circa 6 foot not being able to handle big heavies given the limitations of big heavies and the fact we've seen skill win out over bulk so many times. The failings of Carlos DeLeon and his cruiser hombres doesn't disprove this because they were all mediocre anyway. Why since the 80s most fighters in that range have been poor we can argue, but it doesn't follow that similar sized men of yore were poor. Modern American heavies are awful, but that has no bearing on Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Frazier, Ali etc etc for obvious reasons.

Sam Langford started as a lightweight and fought up to HW and he was smaller than Canelo. Based on that some people think he would beat the HWs of today. For me there is little difference to what Langford did compared to what Canelo has done yet no one would give Canelo a chance against Wilder. And Wilder is one of the most technically limited HWs there is.

Really? Wilder is one I'd expect Canelo to UD.

[Controversial]

Fair enough, I'd say Canelo being a pumped up welter (and a fairly squat one at that) would be up against it because he wouldn't be able to hurt some big heavies, but that's outside my purview. I just tire of the concept of guys in the 190 range circa 6 foot not being able to handle big heavies given the limitations of big heavies and the fact we've seen skill win out over bulk so many times. The failings of Carlos DeLeon and his cruiser hombres doesn't disprove this because they were all mediocre anyway. Why since the 80s most fighters in that range have been poor we can argue, but it doesn't follow that similar sized men of yore were poor. Modern American heavies are awful, but that has no bearing on Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Frazier, Ali etc etc for obvious reasons.

Sam Langford started as a lightweight and fought up to HW and he was smaller than Canelo. Based on that some people think he would beat the HWs of today. For me there is little difference to what Langford did compared to what Canelo has done yet no one would give Canelo a chance against Wilder. And Wilder is one of the most technically limited HWs there is.

Really? Wilder is one I'd expect Canelo to UD.

Haha

[Riddick Bowie]

Sam Langford started as a lightweight and fought up to HW and he was smaller than Canelo. Based on that some people think he would beat the HWs of today. For me there is little difference to what Langford did compared to what Canelo has done yet no one would give Canelo a chance against Wilder. And Wilder is one of the most technically limited HWs there is.

Really? Wilder is one I'd expect Canelo to UD.

Haha

Other than missing Canelo with that right hand that takes a long time to find huge targets with low ring IQs, what's Wilder doing every round to rack up the points? Using his newly invented fluid left jab? Hurting Canelo with sustained combination punching? Using feints, setting up counters? Seriously, what do you envision playing out round after round? The smaller guy has every punch and move in the book, the big guy has a big right hand. That's it.

These arrogant, tedious dismissals of the more talented smaller man are EXACTLY what were being written on forums 20 years ago about the impending Ruiz/RJJ fight. Smug know it alls lecturing us on 'science' and 'physics' and how it was IMPOSSIBLE for a man Roy Jones size to hurt a heavyweight. Ruiz was going to walk right through him. Turns out whatever weight you are a jawbone is still a jawbone.

[Controversial]

Really? Wilder is one I'd expect Canelo to UD.

Haha

Other than missing Canelo with that right hand that takes a long time to find huge targets with low ring IQs, what's Wilder doing every round to rack up the points? Using his newly invented fluid left jab? Hurting Canelo with sustained combination punching? Using feints, setting up counters? Seriously, what do you envision playing out round after round? The smaller guy has every punch and move in the book, the big guy has a big right hand. That's it.

These arrogant, tedious dismissals of the more talented smaller man are EXACTLY what were being written on forums 20 years ago about the impending Ruiz/RJJ fight. Smug know it alls lecturing us on 'science' and 'physics' and how it was IMPOSSIBLE for a man Roy Jones size to hurt a heavyweight. Ruiz was going to walk right through him. Turns out whatever weight you are a jawbone is still a jawbone.

RJJ is a very different fighter style wise to Canelo who pretty much walks guys down or stands and trades with them. A one off win against a very selected opponent doesn't mean the same outcome would happen against them all. Unless you could see RJJ beating Lewis and Holyfield as well. In which case why didn't he not fight them?

There have been plenty of very talented fighters over the years at the smaller weights, could you see Sugar Ray Leonard beating the top HWs?

Yes everyone is made out of flesh and bone and feels pain, that doesn't mean its a free for all and any decent fighter regardless or size can beat the best HWs.

[HomicideHenry]

Really? Wilder is one I'd expect Canelo to UD.

Haha

Other than missing Canelo with that right hand that takes a long time to find huge targets with low ring IQs, what's Wilder doing every round to rack up the points? Using his newly invented fluid left jab? Hurting Canelo with sustained combination punching? Using feints, setting up counters? Seriously, what do you envision playing out round after round? The smaller guy has every punch and move in the book, the big guy has a big right hand. That's it.

These arrogant, tedious dismissals of the more talented smaller man are EXACTLY what were being written on forums 20 years ago about the impending Ruiz/RJJ fight. Smug know it alls lecturing us on 'science' and 'physics' and how it was IMPOSSIBLE for a man Roy Jones size to hurt a heavyweight. Ruiz was going to walk right through him. Turns out whatever weight you are a jawbone is still a jawbone.

I don't really recall John Ruiz being hurt by Roy Jones other than a bloody nose. I do however remember James Toney hurting Ruiz, but afterwards it was revealed Toney was taking anabolic steroids.

There have been plenty of very talented fighters over the years at the smaller weights, could you see Sugar Ray Leonard beating the top HWs?

Depends on the era.

After all if Mickey Walker in the 1920s or 1930s could become the number one contender to the heavyweight crown and he was a welterweight and middleweight champion... I could see Sugar Ray Leonard in that same era possibly beating Max Schmeling when Walker couldn't.

[Controversial]

Depends on the era.

After all if Mickey Walker in the 1920s or 1930s could become the number one contender to the heavyweight crown and he was a welterweight and middleweight champion... I could see Sugar Ray Leonard in that same era possibly beating Max Schmeling when Walker couldn't.

Timing is everything, I think those days are gone though

[HomicideHenry]

Depends on the era.

After all if Mickey Walker in the 1920s or 1930s could become the number one contender to the heavyweight crown and he was a welterweight and middleweight champion... I could see Sugar Ray Leonard in that same era possibly beating Max Schmeling when Walker couldn't.

Timing is everything, I think those days are gone though

I think for the most part it's true. Those days are over. That being said I could see a guy like Ray Leonard beating many first & second tiersmen and journeymen heavyweights. Possibly some trialhorses. Beyond that? No.

[Riddick Bowie]

Haha

Other than missing Canelo with that right hand that takes a long time to find huge targets with low ring IQs, what's Wilder doing every round to rack up the points? Using his newly invented fluid left jab? Hurting Canelo with sustained combination punching? Using feints, setting up counters? Seriously, what do you envision playing out round after round? The smaller guy has every punch and move in the book, the big guy has a big right hand. That's it.

These arrogant, tedious dismissals of the more talented smaller man are EXACTLY what were being written on forums 20 years ago about the impending Ruiz/RJJ fight. Smug know it alls lecturing us on 'science' and 'physics' and how it was IMPOSSIBLE for a man Roy Jones size to hurt a heavyweight. Ruiz was going to walk right through him. Turns out whatever weight you are a jawbone is still a jawbone.

RJJ is a very different fighter style wise to Canelo who pretty much walks guys down or stands and trades with them. A one off win against a very selected opponent doesn't mean the same outcome would happen against them all. Unless you could see RJJ beating Lewis and Holyfield as well. In which case why didn't he not fight them?

There have been plenty of very talented fighters over the years at the smaller weights, could you see Sugar Ray Leonard beating the top HWs?

Yes everyone is made out of flesh and bone and feels pain, that doesn't mean its a free for all and any decent fighter regardless or size can beat the best HWs.

He tried to fight Holyfield in 2003 but the fight fell apart and Holyfield wound up fighting Toney; difficult to fight Lewis given that Lewis fought his final fight 2 months after Jones/Ruiz. Lewis was projecting fights with RJJ and various others in the Klitschko pre-fight but afterwards decided to exit the stage altogether.

None of this has any bearing on Canelo/Wilder, your absolute confidence in the superiority of the bigger man was simply echoing the Boxrec Ruiz/Jones pre-fight discussion. And I'm still interested to know what you see Wilder doing round after round given that you think Canelo beating him is laughable.

[Riddick Bowie]

Haha

Other than missing Canelo with that right hand that takes a long time to find huge targets with low ring IQs, what's Wilder doing every round to rack up the points? Using his newly invented fluid left jab? Hurting Canelo with sustained combination punching? Using feints, setting up counters? Seriously, what do you envision playing out round after round? The smaller guy has every punch and move in the book, the big guy has a big right hand. That's it.

These arrogant, tedious dismissals of the more talented smaller man are EXACTLY what were being written on forums 20 years ago about the impending Ruiz/RJJ fight. Smug know it alls lecturing us on 'science' and 'physics' and how it was IMPOSSIBLE for a man Roy Jones size to hurt a heavyweight. Ruiz was going to walk right through him. Turns out whatever weight you are a jawbone is still a jawbone.

I don't really recall John Ruiz being hurt by Roy Jones other than a bloody nose. I do however remember James Toney hurting Ruiz, but afterwards it was revealed Toney was taking anabolic steroids.

There have been plenty of very talented fighters over the years at the smaller weights, could you see Sugar Ray Leonard beating the top HWs?

Depends on the era.

After all if Mickey Walker in the 1920s or 1930s could become the number one contender to the heavyweight crown and he was a welterweight and middleweight champion... I could see Sugar Ray Leonard in that same era possibly beating Max Schmeling when Walker couldn't.

As usual your memory is shocking. Jones visibly hurts Ruiz with a big right, and he remains intimidated for the rest of the fight.

[Controversial]

Other than missing Canelo with that right hand that takes a long time to find huge targets with low ring IQs, what's Wilder doing every round to rack up the points? Using his newly invented fluid left jab? Hurting Canelo with sustained combination punching? Using feints, setting up counters? Seriously, what do you envision playing out round after round? The smaller guy has every punch and move in the book, the big guy has a big right hand. That's it.

These arrogant, tedious dismissals of the more talented smaller man are EXACTLY what were being written on forums 20 years ago about the impending Ruiz/RJJ fight. Smug know it alls lecturing us on 'science' and 'physics' and how it was IMPOSSIBLE for a man Roy Jones size to hurt a heavyweight. Ruiz was going to walk right through him. Turns out whatever weight you are a jawbone is still a jawbone.

RJJ is a very different fighter style wise to Canelo who pretty much walks guys down or stands and trades with them. A one off win against a very selected opponent doesn't mean the same outcome would happen against them all. Unless you could see RJJ beating Lewis and Holyfield as well. In which case why didn't he not fight them?

There have been plenty of very talented fighters over the years at the smaller weights, could you see Sugar Ray Leonard beating the top HWs?

Yes everyone is made out of flesh and bone and feels pain, that doesn't mean its a free for all and any decent fighter regardless or size can beat the best HWs.

He tried to fight Holyfield in 2003 but the fight fell apart and Holyfield wound up fighting Toney; difficult to fight Lewis given that Lewis fought his final fight 2 months after Jones/Ruiz. Lewis was projecting fights with RJJ and various others in the Klitschko pre-fight but afterwards decided to exit the stage altogether.

None of this has any bearing on Canelo/Wilder, your absolute confidence in the superiority of the bigger man was simply echoing the Boxrec Ruiz/Jones pre-fight discussion. And I'm still interested to know what you see Wilder doing round after round given that you think Canelo beating him is laughable.

Because Canelo’s style is to walk forward and wear fighters down using his strength to win. I can’t see him being strong enough to do that against Wilder or be able to take his punches for long.