Early 60's seems like a very weak era in boxing where Liston thrived

[margaret thatcher]

ruiz was a 2-1 underdog vs jones, he was expected to lose

if these little guys like 5'8 canelo would have their way at heavy it's baffling they arent moving up and doing it, canelo beating wilder for the heavywieght title wouldve been massive.

[Riddick Bowie]

ruiz was a 2-1 underdog vs jones, he was expected to lose

if these little guys like 5'8 canelo would have their way at heavy it's baffling they arent moving up and doing it, canelo beating wilder for the heavywieght title wouldve been massive.

Those might have been the odds out of Vegas come fight time, indeed Graham Houston at BM picked speed & science to beat size & strength, but the prevailing opinion on Boxrec, ESB, Seconds Out, Cyber Boxing Zone et al, where boxing fans discuss the fights, was that Ruiz would walk through Jones. I don't care what someone who wasn't born at the time thinks.

[margaret thatcher]

lol, shocked the world by beating the 2-1 underdog

[HomicideHenry]

Other than missing Canelo with that right hand that takes a long time to find huge targets with low ring IQs, what's Wilder doing every round to rack up the points? Using his newly invented fluid left jab? Hurting Canelo with sustained combination punching? Using feints, setting up counters? Seriously, what do you envision playing out round after round? The smaller guy has every punch and move in the book, the big guy has a big right hand. That's it.

These arrogant, tedious dismissals of the more talented smaller man are EXACTLY what were being written on forums 20 years ago about the impending Ruiz/RJJ fight. Smug know it alls lecturing us on 'science' and 'physics' and how it was IMPOSSIBLE for a man Roy Jones size to hurt a heavyweight. Ruiz was going to walk right through him. Turns out whatever weight you are a jawbone is still a jawbone.

I don't really recall John Ruiz being hurt by Roy Jones other than a bloody nose. I do however remember James Toney hurting Ruiz, but afterwards it was revealed Toney was taking anabolic steroids.

There have been plenty of very talented fighters over the years at the smaller weights, could you see Sugar Ray Leonard beating the top HWs?

Depends on the era.

After all if Mickey Walker in the 1920s or 1930s could become the number one contender to the heavyweight crown and he was a welterweight and middleweight champion... I could see Sugar Ray Leonard in that same era possibly beating Max Schmeling when Walker couldn't.

As usual your memory is shocking. Jones visibly hurts Ruiz with a big right, and he remains intimidated for the rest of the fight.

Name the round in which it happened.

All I remember is Ruiz plodding forward getting caught with jabs and the referee not allowing Ruiz to do his usual tactics like he did any another time in his career.

[Controversial]

I don't really recall John Ruiz being hurt by Roy Jones other than a bloody nose. I do however remember James Toney hurting Ruiz, but afterwards it was revealed Toney was taking anabolic steroids.



Depends on the era.

After all if Mickey Walker in the 1920s or 1930s could become the number one contender to the heavyweight crown and he was a welterweight and middleweight champion... I could see Sugar Ray Leonard in that same era possibly beating Max Schmeling when Walker couldn't.

As usual your memory is shocking. Jones visibly hurts Ruiz with a big right, and he remains intimidated for the rest of the fight.

Name the round in which it happened.

I think he means in the last few seconds of the 4th

[HomicideHenry]

As usual your memory is shocking. Jones visibly hurts Ruiz with a big right, and he remains intimidated for the rest of the fight.

Name the round in which it happened.

I think he means in the last few seconds of the 4th

His post makes no sense then because Larry Merchant said in round 5 that Ruiz seemed more determined to get in on the inside. This notion that he was intimidated or backing off Jones is pure fiction. He was still plodding forward as always, trying to clinch, etc.

[Ambling Alp II]

You are being very selective.
Holyfield was well past it when he fought Lewis and easily could have got the decision in the second fight. Holyfield did win the 2nd fight against Bowe.
Byrd beat Vitaly Klitschko.
Usyk beat Joshua.

To this day, Lewis (and Bowe for shorter amount of time) are still the only great heavyweights that were big.

In the end, we need to forget about the weight and look at how good they are.

In basketball if two guys have similar stats and one guy is 6 inches taller, we say the guys are about even. For whatever stupid reason, in boxing, people want to then factor in the weight after that. Makes no sense. And of course the extra weight is automatically all good. The weight helped you hurt you, n or neither. You don't add it in against.

If small guy has a lot of power, so be it.
If a bug guy is quick, so be it. Just what they do, not what what needle on the scale says.

If that is the case then why does it not happen anymore on a regular basis? It simply doesn't happen. And again it's all about skills and everything else that goes with the size.

Joshua was NEVERRRRRRR in the same league as Usyk. No man who could lose to Andy Ruiz is. So it's basically an A+ fighter beating a B fighter who lost to a C level fighter in the case of Usyk vs Joshua.

I don't want to hear about Byrd Vitali won virtually every second, and he quit strictly because of an injury. Had he not had the injury he would have won the fight easily by lop sided decision. So you can't use it as an argument.

Holyfield was "well passed it" against Lewis? I don't know how you figure it when he was a world champion too and fought on as a top ten guy for nearly twenty years after the fact? Was there a drop off? Sure. But "well passed it"? I don't think so.

Why doesn't it happen anymore? how many small-medium size heavyweights are there? Hardly any. that doesn't mean that shouldn't be any.
Yet we Wilder (with all his limitations) did pretty well. Usyk has well.
and yes Byrd's win over Klitschko count. all the crybaby excuses in the world don't matter. Vitaly won virtually every second. What the hell were you watching. It was a nine-round pillow fight with neither guy doing anything. Byrd won. So yeah, I can use that argument.

Holyfield was way, way past his best when he fought Lewis. He was old and had been a in a ton of tough fights by then. That an old small guy was in the top 10 says a lot about the quality of the big fighters.

You are not counting Usyks win over Joshua? That is just stupid. The mere fact that you call Joshua a B fighter defeats your own point. He has been the 2nd best big fighter out there. You are defeating your own argument.

[Controversial]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

[Cojimar 1946]

I could imagine Alvarez not wanting to beat journeyman at heavyweight seeing it as a waste of time but it doesn't make sense he wouldn't try to fight Wilder if he felt he could win. Beating Wilder would have made money and done wonders for his legacy. Possibly Alvarez is underestimating his chances but surely he would try to make the fight if he thought it was winnable.

[margaret thatcher]

yup, being hw champ would be huge for these little guys, makes no sense why they wouldnt be doing it if they were capable

[Joson]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

I don't believe Usyk has the physical presence - the sheer strength - of the 1970s Foreman. Not even close. Usyk's actual weight these days is comparable to that of the 1970s Foreman, true, but sometimes weight is misleading.

Usyk's really just a puffed-up cruiserweight. George, by contrast, was an absolute steamroller.

Certainly Usyk is proving that a little heavyweight - assisted by a last-minute bulking diet/conditioning regimen - can defeat bigger guys by relying on extraordinary speed and technical skill. No doubt about that. But this doesn't mean Usyk has the physical strength, bulk, or muscling capacity of the 1970s Big George.

In fact, I wouldn't even rate Usyk's physical presence and strength as being on par with that of 220 lbs Ron Lyle, who nearly coldcocked Foreman in 1976. Usyk weighs the exact same as Lyle did, but Ronnie had a heck of a lot more physical density, strength, and power.

[Joson]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

I don't believe Usyk has the physical presence - the sheer strength - of the 1970s Foreman. Not even close. Usyk's actual weight these days is comparable to that of the 1970s Foreman, true, but sometimes weight is misleading.

Usyk's really just a puffed-up cruiserweight. George, by contrast, was an absolute steamroller.

Certainly Usyk is proving that a little heavyweight - assisted by a last-minute bulking diet/conditioning regimen - can defeat bigger guys by relying on extraordinary speed and technical skill. No doubt about that. But this doesn't mean Usyk has the physical strength, bulk, or muscling capacity of the 1970s Big George.

In fact, I wouldn't even rate Usyk's physical presence and strength on par with that of 220 lbs Ron Lyle, who nearly coldcocked Foreman in 1976. Usyk weighs the exact same as Lyle did, but Ronnie had a heck of a lot more physical density, strength, and power.

[Controversial]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

I don't believe Usyk has the physical presence - the sheer strength - of the 1970s Foreman. Not even close. Usyk's actual weight these days is comparable to that of the 1970s Foreman, true, but sometimes weight is misleading.

Usyk's really just a puffed-up cruiserweight. George, by contrast, was an absolute steamroller.

Certainly Usyk is proving that a little heavyweight - assisted by a last-minute bulking diet/conditioning regimen - can defeat bigger guys by relying on extraordinary speed and technical skill. No doubt about that. But this doesn't mean Usyk has the physical strength, bulk, or muscling capacity of the 1970s Big George.

In fact, I wouldn't even rate Usyk's physical presence and strength on par with that of 220 lbs Ron Lyle, who nearly coldcocked Foreman in 1976. Usyk weighs the exact same as Lyle did, but Ronnie had a heck of a lot more physical density, strength, and power.

I meant in terms of height, reach and weight, according to the stats both 6'3" with 78" reach and both around 220lbs, I agree Foreman the more naturally thick set guy though and obviously more brute strength and power.

[Ambling Alp II]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

Wilder actually weighed less in the first Fury fight than Liston did against Patterson. Wilder only weighed 212 and got a draw. Wilder did worse when he weighed more. Wilder (as limited as he is), beat many fighters who outweighed him by several pounds.

When one 250-pound guy beats another 250-pound guy or whatever, it is not proof that these guys should be that big or that they would beat a great smaller guy.
The only thing that counts is when the bigger guy fights the smaller guy. And the really big heavyweight wins almost 51 % of the time in the real world, though much more often in fantasy fights.

[Controversial]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

Wilder actually weighed less in the first Fury fight than Liston did against Patterson. Wilder only weighed 212 and got a draw. Wilder did worse when he weighed more. Wilder (as limited as he is), beat many fighters who outweighed him by several pounds.

When one 250-pound guy beats another 250-pound guy or whatever, it is not proof that these guys should be that big or that they would beat a great smaller guy.
The only thing that counts is when the bigger guy fights the smaller guy. And the really big heavyweight wins almost 51 % of the time in the real world, though much more often in fantasy fights.

His sheer physical size would still play a part. He’s far from small. Again lots of factors come into play and weight isn’t the be all and end all. Wilder has one punch knockout power and that’s what wins him fights. If he had no punch then he’d never be HW champ. I’m also sure he wouldn’t be as successful if he was 6’0” with a 74” reach because he’d find it harder to close guys down and land his big punch.

Conversely Fury did the opposite, he came in far heavier in the rematches and was more successful as he used it to lean on Wilder and push him around.

What division do you think Henry Cooper would stand more chance in today, the HW or CW division?

[Cojimar 1946]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

Wilder actually weighed less in the first Fury fight than Liston did against Patterson. Wilder only weighed 212 and got a draw. Wilder did worse when he weighed more. Wilder (as limited as he is), beat many fighters who outweighed him by several pounds.

When one 250-pound guy beats another 250-pound guy or whatever, it is not proof that these guys should be that big or that they would beat a great smaller guy.
The only thing that counts is when the bigger guy fights the smaller guy. And the really big heavyweight wins almost 51 % of the time in the real world, though much more often in fantasy fights.

Wilder is still a lot bigger than the top heavyweights Liston beat with the possible exception of Williams. His limited success hardly seems like proof even smaller guys like Machen or Patterson would do well in recent eras. They also don't have his height or power which seem like big factors in his success. There are guys fighting at cruiserweight, light heavyweight and even middleweight who could compete at heavyweight in other eras and it might be fair to pick them over top heavies from the 1950s or 1930s but it seems like a big stretch to pick them over 90s heavies like Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, etc.

It would be fair to see Beterbiev or Bivol's success as proof they could compete with heavyweights approximately their size like Schmelling, Marciano, Patterson etc but not guys like Lewis, Holyfield, or Bowe. The same seems true for Liston. Why should we assume he could beat guys 30, 40, 50, 60 pounds heavier than the guys he fought? If we do does the same logic apply to todays light heavyweights.

[HomicideHenry]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

Wilder actually weighed less in the first Fury fight than Liston did against Patterson. Wilder only weighed 212 and got a draw. Wilder did worse when he weighed more. Wilder (as limited as he is), beat many fighters who outweighed him by several pounds.

When one 250-pound guy beats another 250-pound guy or whatever, it is not proof that these guys should be that big or that they would beat a great smaller guy.
The only thing that counts is when the bigger guy fights the smaller guy. And the really big heavyweight wins almost 51 % of the time in the real world, though much more often in fantasy fights.

Wilder is still a lot bigger than the top heavyweights Liston beat with the possible exception of Williams. His limited success hardly seems like proof even smaller guys like Machen or Patterson would do well in recent eras. They also don't have his height or power which seem like big factors in his success. There are guys fighting at cruiserweight, light heavyweight and even middleweight who could compete at heavyweight in other eras and it might be fair to pick them over top heavies from the 1950s or 1930s but it seems like a big stretch to pick them over 90s heavies like Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, etc.

It would be fair to see Beterbiev or Bivol's success as proof they could compete with heavyweights approximately their size like Schmelling, Marciano, Patterson etc but not guys like Lewis, Holyfield, or Bowe. The same seems true for Liston. Why should we assume he could beat guys 30, 40, 50, 60 pounds heavier than the guys he fought? If we do does the same logic apply to todays light heavyweights.

I don't think he understands that today's 175 pounders basically walk around 200+ pounds easily. When I fought Jleon Love (at super middleweight) he told me afterwards he rehydrated back up to basically 195 pounds. The irony? He's currently fighting at cruiserweight, which was his natural walking around weight.

[Ambling Alp II]

You will always get times when a smaller guy beats a bigger guy and that can come down to all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are just better, sometimes they pull off an upset. That kind of applies to any sport, sometimes small teams beat big teams, underdogs beat the favourites etc. The real measuring stick is what happens more often than not, not what happens once in a while. Usyk isn’t small, he is compared to guys like Fury but he’s the same size as Foreman in the 70s. Wilder isn’t small either, he’s 6’7” so one of the tallest HW champs in boxing history. Even when he was in the 230s against Fury he wasn’t carrying any flab. The guys most people are referring to are the ones mentioned in the OP, guys that had no major strengths and would likely be better at CW today. They would struggle against the good big HWs of today because unless you have knockout power or are very skilled then what advantages are they going to have? Henry Cooper was a decent fighter with a great left hook but not the biggest guy in the world, he never went above 198 in his entire career. I think if people were being honest and had to say what division Cooper would be better suited in today most would say the CW division.

Wilder actually weighed less in the first Fury fight than Liston did against Patterson. Wilder only weighed 212 and got a draw. Wilder did worse when he weighed more. Wilder (as limited as he is), beat many fighters who outweighed him by several pounds.

When one 250-pound guy beats another 250-pound guy or whatever, it is not proof that these guys should be that big or that they would beat a great smaller guy.
The only thing that counts is when the bigger guy fights the smaller guy. And the really big heavyweight wins almost 51 % of the time in the real world, though much more often in fantasy fights.

His sheer physical size would still play a part. He’s far from small. Again lots of factors come into play and weight isn’t the be all and end all. Wilder has one punch knockout power and that’s what wins him fights. If he had no punch then he’d never be HW champ. I’m also sure he wouldn’t be as successful if he was 6’0” with a 74” reach because he’d find it harder to close guys down and land his big punch.

Conversely Fury did the opposite, he came in far heavier in the rematches and was more successful as he used it to lean on Wilder and push him around.

What division do you think Henry Cooper would stand more chance in today, the HW or CW division?

If Wilder was 6'0 with a 74-inch reach, he probably would have done about as well as he did. He (like most fighters) don't know how to use their height and reach. Actually, if he might have moved better and done better.

Fury came in heavier in the rematches, as well as Wilder.

Henry Cooper? Probably cruiserweight. He didn't really have the ability to absorb punishment, which is the main reason why he was never one of the top heavyweights. He had some power, but not enough. Had the cruiserweight division existed back then, he probably would have fought in it.
Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Bob Cleroux, would be heavyweights today.

What I am saying is that we have to forget about height weight, reach etc. It is already factored in by the fighter's performances. We should be factoring in the guy's results, as well his speed, power, stamina, boxing ability, toughness etc.
However, we should then at the end say' bit of course this guy had a weight advantage. AS if weight only has benefits and not negatives.

Lets talk more about hand speed and left hooks and jabs and less the scale.

[HomicideHenry]

It seems like we are going constantly in circles here because virtually everybody has said that size does not mean much of anything unless athleticism, skills, speed, ring IQ, etc comes with it. So why we are still having arguments about this is kind of confusing me.

[Controversial]

Wilder actually weighed less in the first Fury fight than Liston did against Patterson. Wilder only weighed 212 and got a draw. Wilder did worse when he weighed more. Wilder (as limited as he is), beat many fighters who outweighed him by several pounds.

When one 250-pound guy beats another 250-pound guy or whatever, it is not proof that these guys should be that big or that they would beat a great smaller guy.
The only thing that counts is when the bigger guy fights the smaller guy. And the really big heavyweight wins almost 51 % of the time in the real world, though much more often in fantasy fights.

His sheer physical size would still play a part. He’s far from small. Again lots of factors come into play and weight isn’t the be all and end all. Wilder has one punch knockout power and that’s what wins him fights. If he had no punch then he’d never be HW champ. I’m also sure he wouldn’t be as successful if he was 6’0” with a 74” reach because he’d find it harder to close guys down and land his big punch.

Conversely Fury did the opposite, he came in far heavier in the rematches and was more successful as he used it to lean on Wilder and push him around.

What division do you think Henry Cooper would stand more chance in today, the HW or CW division?

If Wilder was 6'0 with a 74-inch reach, he probably would have done about as well as he did. He (like most fighters) don't know how to use their height and reach. Actually, if he might have moved better and done better.

Fury came in heavier in the rematches, as well as Wilder.

Henry Cooper? Probably cruiserweight. He didn't really have the ability to absorb punishment, which is the main reason why he was never one of the top heavyweights. He had some power, but not enough. Had the cruiserweight division existed back then, he probably would have fought in it.
Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Bob Cleroux, would be heavyweights today.

What I am saying is that we have to forget about height weight, reach etc. It is already factored in by the fighter's performances. We should be factoring in the guy's results, as well his speed, power, stamina, boxing ability, toughness etc.
However, we should then at the end say' bit of course this guy had a weight advantage. AS if weight only has benefits and not negatives.

Lets talk more about hand speed and left hooks and jabs and less the scale.

I don't think Wilder would be better shorter, long limbs and leverage has a lot to do with the power he generates.

As for Cooper yes CW definitely better and that kind of proves the point with guys around that size. Cooper was British, Commonwealth and European HW champ who never weighed more than 198 in his career. He was around 6'2" with a 75" reach. He had wins over Folley and Mildenberger and lots think he deserved the nod over Bugner. Half of his stoppage defeats were down to cuts and his left hook ended several fights, his hook had Ali in more trouble than anyone else ever managed. By all accounts Cooper was only 180lb (12 stone 12lbs) in the first Ali fight. Cooper wasn't really small for that era, lighter than some but often not a lot in it. The ones that were powerful often had Cooper in trouble which probably explains why his manager didn’t want any part of Liston. So Cooper could be competitive and beat the bigger men on occasion. However if the CW division never existed there is just no way he would win all those titles at HW today because the big decent HWs would be too much for him.

[Cojimar 1946]

Floyd Patterson could easily make light heavyweight with early weigh ins and wouldn't even be among the bigger light heavyweights. The notion he would opt to fight at heavyweight seems implausible in the extreme. Why would he opt to fight guys 50, 60, 70 pounds heavier rather than guys his own size. He was most comfortable under 200 pounds anyway.

It seems far far more likely he fights at light heavyweight than heavyweight

[DrDuke]

It seems like we are going constantly in circles here because virtually everybody has said that size does not mean much of anything unless athleticism, skills, speed, ring IQ, etc comes with it. So why we are still having arguments about this is kind of confusing me.

This board is indeed a circe going comedy of a one single clown. Well, and also of the 100 greatest pound per pound soap opera.

[Cojimar 1946]

In addition to the guys Liston was beating being the size of light heavyweights you have to look at who they were losing to. Patterson was losing to Johannsson, Folley was getting knocked out by Doug Jones, Williams was getting kayoed by Bob Satterfield, etc.

Given these results it seems implausible any of these guys would breeze through even today's light heavyweight division. If Patterson and Machen are losing to Johannsson I think guys like Beterbiev, Bivol, etc probably have a pretty good shot at beating them.

[p4p1]

I think your sidetrack too much on the simulation.

Eddie machen & Zora Folley & Cleveland Williams & Floyd Patterson.

That's not a top 10 resume to me. plain & simple.

You're welcome to you're option but that's my option. Neither one are facts

I gave several facts outside of simulation..

Sonny Liston is difficult to assess.

Either he was completely undone by Cassius Clay due to a combination of speed and psychological warfare, or he would've gotten exposed sooner or later by someone "man enough" to take the fight to him.

I try to imagine a world where Clay didn't exist and I figure Liston might've not lost until Frazier came around on the scene. We might very well be having the discussion that Liston could've defeated Joe Louis if that alternate reality took place.

I know Rocky Marciano didn't hold Liston up in high esteem, even prior to him losing to Clay. It was something of a self fulfilling prophecy that Marciano made when he declared Liston was a bully who would crumble the moment things didn't go his way.

I think for the most part that is true but at the same time it is also hard for me to imagine Rocky Marciano being able to beat Sonny Liston. I have interviewed Chuck Wepner who fought both George Foreman and Sonny Liston and he always claimed that Liston hit harder.

As far as his resume goes, it's top 15 or 20 worthy.

I just don't think someone who is soft mentally as Liston is made out to be by people based on the Ali fights could fight through a broken jaw to a SD loss. I think that against Ali, the first time at least, Liston realized he was just going to get a long drawn out beating. He wasn't getting close to Ali and it wasn't his night. His shoulder may or may not have been a real issue for him but is there really any point in getting beaten up for 15 rounds when you can tell after 6 that you're not going to win or land a hail mary punch? It's not like Liston never experienced difficulty in fights he won. I don't think he was as mentally strong/had a will to win like Marciano or Ali. I think he was happy to fight a war with anyone and had a belief his chin and power would get him the W.

FWIW Liston is one of the worst ever match ups for Liston if not the worst. Maybe foreman or some of the more recent 'super' HWs are worse.

[Controversial]

John Conteh started off as a HW and moved to LHW because Muhammad Ali told him he wasn’t big enough for the HW division.