Early 60's seems like a very weak era in boxing where Liston thrived

[Ambling Alp II]

However people want to slice it Walcott and Moore were not in the same power league as Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Lewis, Tyson etc. Solid hitters yes but neither known for their crushing power at HW and neither likely to be HWs today. Marciano never stood toe to toe with someone that much bigger who punched just as hard as he did, or harder. Marciano wore guys down, he hit Moore with everything he could before he dropped, same for Cockell.

Jersey Joe Walcott would certainly be a hw today. Take a look at the guy. He was ripped. If he was listed at 220, nobody would bat an eye. Why fight for chump change in the cruiserweights division when they could make making more money in the crappy hw division?

Not saying that were as big as punchers as those guys. however, they could punch. Marciano can only stand toe to toe with the best around, and he did. He stopped some guys early, some in the middle rounds, and occasionally later rounds. Marciano had a lot of power, and threw a lot of punches. He had phenomenal stamina and could just keep going and going. He wasn't in any pillow fights.

[Ambling Alp II]

Maybe but his resume doesn't back it up. We can't back him against a puncher like Ruddock with any confidence given the lack of punchers on his resume. No way to know how he reacts to getting hit.

Cleveland Williams was a big puncher. Guess we can't count Patterson since he knocked him out so fast both times. fought several other guys who weren't huge puncher but could hit and wasn't hurt. Ruddock certainly didn't have a great chin himself. Liston had much better boxing skills.

None of the guys he guys he fought would seem to be in Ruddocks league as a puncher and Williams was taken out pretty early in both fights before he had a chance to land much. The Ali and Martin fights raise some questions about Listons durability.

I think its safe to say Ruddock was fighting much bigger punchers than Liston and might have gone the distance in both Tyson fights if not for the questionable stoppage.

Liston was way past it when he fought Martin. Nobody counts that fight. The only fighter whoever stopped him before that was by the greatest hw that ever lived.
Ruddock is the guy whose chin should be questioned. Certainly not a glass jaw, but Ruddock got decked in every big fight he ever had.
Liston was a much better boxer than Ruddick and much better defensively. Ruddock isn't remotely in his class as a fighter.

[Controversial]

However people want to slice it Walcott and Moore were not in the same power league as Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Lewis, Tyson etc. Solid hitters yes but neither known for their crushing power at HW and neither likely to be HWs today. Marciano never stood toe to toe with someone that much bigger who punched just as hard as he did, or harder. Marciano wore guys down, he hit Moore with everything he could before he dropped, same for Cockell.

Jersey Joe Walcott would certainly be a hw today. Take a look at the guy. He was ripped. If he was listed at 220, nobody would bat an eye. Why fight for chump change in the cruiserweights division when they could make making more money in the crappy hw division?

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around. Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought. Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

[Cojimar 1946]

Cleveland Williams was a big puncher. Guess we can't count Patterson since he knocked him out so fast both times. fought several other guys who weren't huge puncher but could hit and wasn't hurt. Ruddock certainly didn't have a great chin himself. Liston had much better boxing skills.

None of the guys he guys he fought would seem to be in Ruddocks league as a puncher and Williams was taken out pretty early in both fights before he had a chance to land much. The Ali and Martin fights raise some questions about Listons durability.

I think its safe to say Ruddock was fighting much bigger punchers than Liston and might have gone the distance in both Tyson fights if not for the questionable stoppage.

Liston was way past it when he fought Martin. Nobody counts that fight. The only fighter whoever stopped him before that was by the greatest hw that ever lived.
Ruddock is the guy whose chin should be questioned. Certainly not a glass jaw, but Ruddock got decked in every big fight he ever had.
Liston was a much better boxer than Ruddick and much better defensively. Ruddock isn't remotely in his class as a fighter.

His defense isn't really that impressive from what I have seen and the guys landing on him are not always that skillful. Better overall skillset than Ruddock but Ruddock has power as an equalizer.

Alis not a big puncher and he was hurting Liston early in the first fight and dropped him the second so if were being objective that doesn't look very good.

[HomicideHenry]

However people want to slice it Walcott and Moore were not in the same power league as Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Lewis, Tyson etc. Solid hitters yes but neither known for their crushing power at HW and neither likely to be HWs today. Marciano never stood toe to toe with someone that much bigger who punched just as hard as he did, or harder. Marciano wore guys down, he hit Moore with everything he could before he dropped, same for Cockell.

Jersey Joe Walcott would certainly be a hw today. Take a look at the guy. He was ripped. If he was listed at 220, nobody would bat an eye. Why fight for chump change in the cruiserweights division when they could make making more money in the crappy hw division?

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around.

Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought.

Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

The one thing not being factored in though is some people might've made good heavyweights had they only had a chin. Hide is a great example. He had all the power and skills and speed, but no punch resistance.

I venture to say a guy like Walcott or Charles had heavyweight punch resistance because of their matches with Marciano, Satterfield, Norkus, Layne, etc. Because even though those men were smaller heavyweights they were universally recognised as the hardest hitters of that timeframe.

Marciano hit incredibly hard. Largely because of his reach (68" or 69") he was able to throw power punches faster than someone with a normal heavyweight reach. Velocity after all equates to power. But because of his reach, he mostly landed on the arms of his opponents until they were unable to adequately defend themselves.

I'm reminded of those punching machines. If i'm not mistaken I saw Anthony Joshua be in the 900 pound per square inch range on those machines, but I've also seen Manny Pacquiao hit around 840 because of the velocity of his punches.

In my experience boxing around big men have more clubbing power shots, but a lighter quicker man has power shots that cut through you jarring your whole skeleton. It might come out equally on a punch machine, but how it feels is completely different.

Considering Walcott was great at setting up traps to hit people with punches they did not see coming, combined with his own hand speed and shifting weight properly... I think he could've hurt a lot of heavyweights today.

After all how much weight do you really need to be to drop or hurt a large heavyweight? I'd say 180. But, again, everyone's chin and punch resistance is different. Some men you could hit all day long (Holyfield) and other men wilt under pressure (Hide) even though both men were basically the same size.

[Controversial]

Jersey Joe Walcott would certainly be a hw today. Take a look at the guy. He was ripped. If he was listed at 220, nobody would bat an eye. Why fight for chump change in the cruiserweights division when they could make making more money in the crappy hw division?

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around.

Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought.

Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

The one thing not being factored in though is some people might've made good heavyweights had they only had a chin. Hide is a great example. He had all the power and skills and speed, but no punch resistance.

I venture to say a guy like Walcott or Charles had heavyweight punch resistance because of their matches with Marciano, Satterfield, Norkus, Layne, etc. Because even though those men were smaller heavyweights they were universally recognised as the hardest hitters of that timeframe.

Marciano hit incredibly hard. Largely because of his reach (68" or 69") he was able to throw power punches faster than someone with a normal heavyweight reach. Velocity after all equates to power. But because of his reach, he mostly landed on the arms of his opponents until they were unable to adequately defend themselves.

I'm reminded of those punching machines. If i'm not mistaken I saw Anthony Joshua be in the 900 pound per square inch range on those machines, but I've also seen Manny Pacquiao hit around 840 because of the velocity of his punches.

In my experience boxing around big men have more clubbing power shots, but a lighter quicker man has power shots that cut through you jarring your whole skeleton. It might come out equally on a punch machine, but how it feels is completely different.

Considering Walcott was great at setting up traps to hit people with punches they did not see coming, combined with his own hand speed and shifting weight properly... I think he could've hurt a lot of heavyweights today.

After all how much weight do you really need to be to drop or hurt a large heavyweight? I'd say 180. But, again, everyone's chin and punch resistance is different. Some men you could hit all day long (Holyfield) and other men wilt under pressure (Hide) even though both men were basically the same size.

Of course anyone has the capability of hurting much bigger opponents and one fighter can take more punishment than an other. Canelo could beat a few HWs today even weighing 170. I’m sure we’ve all seen the street fights on YouTube where a tiny woman has sparked a male doorman three times her size. But there are divisions for a reason and as hard as someone like Julian Jackson or Tommy Hearns hit they were never going to be HW champ.

[HomicideHenry]

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around.

Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought.

Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

The one thing not being factored in though is some people might've made good heavyweights had they only had a chin. Hide is a great example. He had all the power and skills and speed, but no punch resistance.

I venture to say a guy like Walcott or Charles had heavyweight punch resistance because of their matches with Marciano, Satterfield, Norkus, Layne, etc. Because even though those men were smaller heavyweights they were universally recognised as the hardest hitters of that timeframe.

Marciano hit incredibly hard. Largely because of his reach (68" or 69") he was able to throw power punches faster than someone with a normal heavyweight reach. Velocity after all equates to power. But because of his reach, he mostly landed on the arms of his opponents until they were unable to adequately defend themselves.

I'm reminded of those punching machines. If i'm not mistaken I saw Anthony Joshua be in the 900 pound per square inch range on those machines, but I've also seen Manny Pacquiao hit around 840 because of the velocity of his punches.

In my experience boxing around big men have more clubbing power shots, but a lighter quicker man has power shots that cut through you jarring your whole skeleton. It might come out equally on a punch machine, but how it feels is completely different.

Considering Walcott was great at setting up traps to hit people with punches they did not see coming, combined with his own hand speed and shifting weight properly... I think he could've hurt a lot of heavyweights today.

After all how much weight do you really need to be to drop or hurt a large heavyweight? I'd say 180. But, again, everyone's chin and punch resistance is different. Some men you could hit all day long (Holyfield) and other men wilt under pressure (Hide) even though both men were basically the same size.

Of course anyone has the capability of hurting much bigger opponents and one fighter can take more punishment than an other. Canelo could beat a few HWs today even weighing 170. I’m sure we’ve all seen the street fights on YouTube where a tiny woman has sparked a male doorman three times her size. But there are divisions for a reason and as hard as someone like Julian Jackson or Tommy Hearns hit they were never going to be HW champ.

No because ultimately they wouldn't have had the punch resistance. Then again Tommy Hearns fought as a cruiserweight and got pretty high in the rankings despite being way over the hill, but I understand the sentiment.

[Controversial]

Velocity after all equates to power.

I really don’t know why some people can punch hard and others can’t. It can’t just be down to velocity as there are fast punchers who can’t punch and heavily muscled guys who can’t punch. Or guys slow like Bruno who had loads of knockouts. Sometimes the smaller guys move up a division a few pounds and seem to lose their punch. Then you get guys who get rated as being hard hitters but their record isn’t full of knockouts, Chris Eubank springs to mind.

[HomicideHenry]

Velocity after all equates to power.

I really don’t know why some people can punch hard and others can’t. It can’t just be down to velocity as there are fast punchers who can’t punch and heavily muscled guys who can’t punch. Sometimes the smaller guys move up a division a few pounds and seem to lose their punch. Then you get guys who get rated as being hard hitters but their record isn’t full of knockouts, Chris Eubank springs to mind.

I imagine most of it is their technique combined with not shifting their weight properly. Most of the fast guys don't really put their weight behind anything. If they did they'd probably be surprised how hard they could hit.

[Ambling Alp II]

However people want to slice it Walcott and Moore were not in the same power league as Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Lewis, Tyson etc. Solid hitters yes but neither known for their crushing power at HW and neither likely to be HWs today. Marciano never stood toe to toe with someone that much bigger who punched just as hard as he did, or harder. Marciano wore guys down, he hit Moore with everything he could before he dropped, same for Cockell.

Jersey Joe Walcott would certainly be a hw today. Take a look at the guy. He was ripped. If he was listed at 220, nobody would bat an eye. Why fight for chump change in the cruiserweights division when they could make making more money in the crappy hw division?

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around. Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought. Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

You mentioned some guys that fought at light heavy or cruiser and then didn't do well as hw. You didn't mention those that did do well. Moorer, Byrd, Holyfield, Usyk. Michael Spinks. Jones won one the WBS titles at 193.

It goes down to how good you. If a guy weighs 190 and can do it. He can do. If he weighs 215 and can do it, he can do. If he weighs 250 and can do it, he can do it. The heavyweight division has sucked for a long time. (Cruiserweight and light heavyweight) has not been that great either for that matter)Jersey Joe Walcott would have done well. He wouldn't have had to pack on the weight. With his footwork, he would dance circles around them. He would win a lot of easy decisions and at times take out someone with the left hook.

[Ambling Alp II]

None of the guys he guys he fought would seem to be in Ruddocks league as a puncher and Williams was taken out pretty early in both fights before he had a chance to land much. The Ali and Martin fights raise some questions about Listons durability.

I think its safe to say Ruddock was fighting much bigger punchers than Liston and might have gone the distance in both Tyson fights if not for the questionable stoppage.

Liston was way past it when he fought Martin. Nobody counts that fight. The only fighter whoever stopped him before that was by the greatest hw that ever lived.
Ruddock is the guy whose chin should be questioned. Certainly not a glass jaw, but Ruddock got decked in every big fight he ever had.
Liston was a much better boxer than Ruddick and much better defensively. Ruddock isn't remotely in his class as a fighter.

His defense isn't really that impressive from what I have seen and the guys landing on him are not always that skillful. Better overall skillset than Ruddock but Ruddock has power as an equalizer.

Alis not a big puncher and he was hurting Liston early in the first fight and dropped him the second so if were being objective that doesn't look very good.

His defense was good and he did beat several skillful fighters. Ruddock had a big left hook and not much else. Ali could punch, was of course very fast, and was a very accurate puncher who nailed Liston with several clean shots. not going to get into the knockdown in the 2nd fight. Bottom line is that Liston was down three times in his whole career. One he was very younger, the Ali fight and then when he was way over the hill. So far the best you have come up with is that Liston lost the best hw whoever lived.

[Ambling Alp II]

Velocity after all equates to power.

I really don’t know why some people can punch hard and others can’t. It can’t just be down to velocity as there are fast punchers who can’t punch and heavily muscled guys who can’t punch. Sometimes the smaller guys move up a division a few pounds and seem to lose their punch. Then you get guys who get rated as being hard hitters but their record isn’t full of knockouts, Chris Eubank springs to mind.

I imagine most of it is their technique combined with not shifting their weight properly. Most of the fast guys don't really put their weight behind anything. If they did they'd probably be surprised how hard they could hit.

Punching power is made up of several factors. One is natural ability. Another is technique. One is strength. Yet another is speed.

[HomicideHenry]

I really don’t know why some people can punch hard and others can’t. It can’t just be down to velocity as there are fast punchers who can’t punch and heavily muscled guys who can’t punch. Sometimes the smaller guys move up a division a few pounds and seem to lose their punch. Then you get guys who get rated as being hard hitters but their record isn’t full of knockouts, Chris Eubank springs to mind.

I imagine most of it is their technique combined with not shifting their weight properly. Most of the fast guys don't really put their weight behind anything. If they did they'd probably be surprised how hard they could hit.

Punching power is made up of several factors. One is natural ability. Another is technique. One is strength. Yet another is speed.

In many cases yes. But not always. Again, Jimmy Wilde was actually put through a battery of tests to find the source of his knockout power and the only conclusion they could come to was his timing and accuracy because he was of average strength, etc.

[Cojimar 1946]

Wilder is a pretty poor example since first of all we don't know where he rates in this era since fighters won't face each other and second the world class level opponents he has beaten (Stiverne and Ortiz) are likely not really bigger men but weigh more simply due to being overweight. Wilder probably has more muscle mass than either

[Cojimar 1946]

Liston was way past it when he fought Martin. Nobody counts that fight. The only fighter whoever stopped him before that was by the greatest hw that ever lived.
Ruddock is the guy whose chin should be questioned. Certainly not a glass jaw, but Ruddock got decked in every big fight he ever had.
Liston was a much better boxer than Ruddick and much better defensively. Ruddock isn't remotely in his class as a fighter.

His defense isn't really that impressive from what I have seen and the guys landing on him are not always that skillful. Better overall skillset than Ruddock but Ruddock has power as an equalizer.

Alis not a big puncher and he was hurting Liston early in the first fight and dropped him the second so if were being objective that doesn't look very good.

His defense was good and he did beat several skillful fighters. Ruddock had a big left hook and not much else. Ali could punch, was of course very fast, and was a very accurate puncher who nailed Liston with several clean shots. not going to get into the knockdown in the 2nd fight. Bottom line is that Liston was down three times in his whole career. One he was very younger, the Ali fight and then when he was way over the hill. So far the best you have come up with is that Liston lost the best hw whoever lived.

Ruddock likely doesn't need that much skill to beat everyone Liston beat. Were talking about guys who were brutally kayoed by Ingemar Johansson of all people. Who lost to Alejandro Lavorante. Who were kayoed by Bob Satterfield regardless of excuses. Some of these guys were more skilled perhaps but didn't have the durability to take shots from Ruddock.

My argument was not that Ruddock is necessary better than Liston but that he probably could beat the guys Liston beat and I think a lot of evidence points that way.

[Controversial]

Jersey Joe Walcott would certainly be a hw today. Take a look at the guy. He was ripped. If he was listed at 220, nobody would bat an eye. Why fight for chump change in the cruiserweights division when they could make making more money in the crappy hw division?

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around. Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought. Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

You mentioned some guys that fought at light heavy or cruiser and then didn't do well as hw. You didn't mention those that did do well. Moorer, Byrd, Holyfield, Usyk. Michael Spinks. Jones won one the WBS titles at 193.

But again how many dominated at HW or fall into the one good win bracket. Plus remember the ages of guys like Moorer and Holyfield. Moorer turn pro aged 20 and had his last fight at LHW just after his 23rd birthday, he was still filling out and likely having to make sacrifices to make LHW. Same for Holyfield, turned pro at 22 and had his last fight at CW aged 25. They were not small either, both 6'2" with 78" reaches so still bigger than lots of the old time HWs. Had they turned pro in their mid 20s chances are they would've been HW's from the outset.

[Ambling Alp II]

His defense isn't really that impressive from what I have seen and the guys landing on him are not always that skillful. Better overall skillset than Ruddock but Ruddock has power as an equalizer.

Alis not a big puncher and he was hurting Liston early in the first fight and dropped him the second so if were being objective that doesn't look very good.

His defense was good and he did beat several skillful fighters. Ruddock had a big left hook and not much else. Ali could punch, was of course very fast, and was a very accurate puncher who nailed Liston with several clean shots. not going to get into the knockdown in the 2nd fight. Bottom line is that Liston was down three times in his whole career. One he was very younger, the Ali fight and then when he was way over the hill. So far the best you have come up with is that Liston lost the best hw whoever lived.

Ruddock likely doesn't need that much skill to beat everyone Liston beat. Were talking about guys who were brutally kayoed by Ingemar Johansson of all people. Who lost to Alejandro Lavorante. Who were kayoed by Bob Satterfield regardless of excuses. Some of these guys were more skilled perhaps but didn't have the durability to take shots from Ruddock.

My argument was not that Ruddock is necessary better than Liston but that he probably could beat the guys Liston beat and I think a lot of evidence points that way.

Ingemar Johannson, of all people?
The evidence that Ruddock could beat the guys that Liston is... what he weighed more? Seriously doubt that Ruddock would have roiled through everyone unscathed. Ruddock beat a sliding Dokes and smith and not much else.
Reudock got stopped by David Jaco.
Do you know how many top 10 fighters Ruddock beat in his career? The answer would be zero.

Don't think Cleveland Williams losing to Satterfield when he literally brought out of the crowd is a lame excuse. Foley, Machen Williams, Patterson, Johannsson, etc were not legends. They had their ups and downs. They had several fights against each other as well as other contenders throughout their careers. They didn't all start their careers 20-0 against stiffs like they do now. They along with Liston of course, made up an average era in hw boxing.

[Ambling Alp II]

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around. Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought. Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

You mentioned some guys that fought at light heavy or cruiser and then didn't do well as hw. You didn't mention those that did do well. Moorer, Byrd, Holyfield, Usyk. Michael Spinks. Jones won one the WBS titles at 193.

But again how many dominated at HW or fall into the one good win bracket. Plus remember the ages of guys like Moorer and Holyfield. Moorer turn pro aged 20 and had his last fight at LHW just after his 23rd birthday, he was still filling out and likely having to make sacrifices to make LHW. Same for Holyfield, turned pro at 22 and had his last fight at CW aged 25. They were not small either, both 6'2" with 78" reaches so still bigger than lots of the old time HWs. Had they turned pro in their mid 20s chances are they would've been HW's from the outset.

Ok, you can always going to come up excuses. We can keep going round and round about it. They and several other non big guys and beat big hws. It happened.

How about Dempsey? (Dempsey weighed less about the same as Marciano btw.)
He did fight guys over the magical 200 make did very well against them. What happened? Optical illusion? Are we going to pretend that he couldn't beat big hws as well? What happened? Optical illusion?

[HomicideHenry]

The issue or the problem when it comes to Jack Dempsey is that the big heavyweights of his time were extremely limited. They were mainly strong men with boxing gloves. Not all, but most.

[Ambling Alp II]

And the circular reasoning continues. Yet again.

Keeps going something like this:
Side A: A smaller fighter from before our time couldn't make it now.

Side B: But if the guy had a lot of ability, he could.

Side A Nope. Size is too much to overcome.

Side B: But the guy from way back defeated big fighters.

Side A: Well, the big fighters that he beat didn't have much ability.

Side B: brick:

[HomicideHenry]

Well point out the guy 200+ pounds who was actually legitimate without limitations that Dempsey defeated. The only big man that really comes to my mind who was legitimate was Gunboat Smith. Every other "big" heavyweight from Dempsey's time fought like a robot or was just some bum rusher throwing haymakers.

[Controversial]

You mentioned some guys that fought at light heavy or cruiser and then didn't do well as hw. You didn't mention those that did do well. Moorer, Byrd, Holyfield, Usyk. Michael Spinks. Jones won one the WBS titles at 193.

But again how many dominated at HW or fall into the one good win bracket. Plus remember the ages of guys like Moorer and Holyfield. Moorer turn pro aged 20 and had his last fight at LHW just after his 23rd birthday, he was still filling out and likely having to make sacrifices to make LHW. Same for Holyfield, turned pro at 22 and had his last fight at CW aged 25. They were not small either, both 6'2" with 78" reaches so still bigger than lots of the old time HWs. Had they turned pro in their mid 20s chances are they would've been HW's from the outset.

Ok, you can always going to come up excuses. We can keep going round and round about it. They and several other non big guys and beat big hws. It happened.

How about Dempsey? (Dempsey weighed less about the same as Marciano btw.)
He did fight guys over the magical 200 make did very well against them. What happened? Optical illusion? Are we going to pretend that he couldn't beat big hws as well? What happened? Optical illusion?

Yes you can go around in circles. One off wins can’t be ignored but need to be taken into context. Outsiders beat the best in others sports quite regularly so boxing is no different but lots of the time they are one offs. Or one fighter will be the best he’s ever been in one fight and it’s never repeated. The debate is can small guys be the best around now and invariably the best LHWs and CWs don’t try their hand at HW or have any great success. After all most CWs are bigger than a lot of the old time HWs and could easily add a few pounds yet you can literally count on one hand how many were a force in the HW division. We can go backward and forwards all day that a small guy knocked out a big guy, yes it can happen as size isn’t always everything if you aren’t on the same level.

[Controversial]

Then again Tommy Hearns fought as a cruiserweight and got pretty high in the rankings despite being way over the hill, but I understand the sentiment.

That was down to his size too, he had the frame and size to keep fighters at distance still and carried his power with him. Fighters like Duran, SRL and Hagler would’ve struggled at that weight in my opinion

[Benny The Kid]

And the circular reasoning continues. Yet again.

Keeps going something like this:
Side A: A smaller fighter from before our time couldn't make it now.

Side B: But if the guy had a lot of ability, he could.

Side A Nope. Size is too much to overcome.

Side B: But the guy from way back defeated big fighters.

Side A: Well, the big fighters that he beat didn't have much ability.

Side B: brick:

That's pretty funny...it's very true.

[Riddick Bowie]

However people want to slice it Walcott and Moore were not in the same power league as Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Lewis, Tyson etc. Solid hitters yes but neither known for their crushing power at HW and neither likely to be HWs today. Marciano never stood toe to toe with someone that much bigger who punched just as hard as he did, or harder. Marciano wore guys down, he hit Moore with everything he could before he dropped, same for Cockell.

Jersey Joe Walcott would certainly be a hw today. Take a look at the guy. He was ripped. If he was listed at 220, nobody would bat an eye. Why fight for chump change in the cruiserweights division when they could make making more money in the crappy hw division?

Maybe but you could say that about lots of fighters and most don’t do it or have great success when they try. Most LHWs and CWs could make HW but boil down to compete at the lighter weights. Okolie is 6’5” with a 82” reach but boxes at CW, he could easily add 20-30lbs and will likely move to HW but I’m sure he will pack on the pounds to be able to hang with the big HWs around. Walcott was 6’0” with a 74” reach so although I’m sure he would have some success at HW he would find it tougher than fighting guys he was bigger than and he didn’t have the build to pack on tons of weight. Not comparing Herbie Hide to Walcott but Hide was a decent size but generally recognised as being too small for the HW division, even though he had some success at HW. Bowe said he was the hardest puncher he fought. Qawi, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Haye, Bellow, Jirov, Nelson etc etc were all better at a lighter weight than HW, even though they would’ve been similar sized or bigger than the old time HWs. That isn’t a coincidence, it’s just that they find the bigger guys too strong or big for them. In older eras the top HWs were generally smaller so the smaller guys could be more competitive.

Herbie Hide wasn't 'too small'. He was the same size as Ali and Holyfield. His heart was too small, his chin nonexistent. He was an on-top bully molly coddled by his team for reasons that were obvious when he stepped up. He's the only heavyweight 'champion' in history to faint before a punch landed (Bowe) and be counted out on a jab (Klitschko).