Smallest Possible

[Ezzard]

But here's where it gets interesting...

If Chuck, arguably the weakest of the 1970s contenders, could potentially lose a ten rounder to Canelo, let's bump up the class of heavyweight incrementally.

Instead of Wepner in there, let's say Buster Mathis. All 6'3"-6'4" and 240+ pounds of him. He went 11 with Frazier, the full route with Quarry and Ali and defeated Chuvalo. Ten rounds. Can Canelo beat him?

If not.... then we need to look at our present day 175 pounders because our best middleweight will not be able to overcome the size/skill differential.

I'd say Mathis wins a 10 rounder.

[hhaehre]

Before we are finished with Wepner, let's not forget he is one of only 4 to have ever knocked Muhamad Ali off his feet and Ali fought some of the biggest punchers in the history of the heavyweight division.

I wouldn’t read anything into this, it wasn’t counted as a knockdown, not seen it in years but pretty sure he either stepped on his foot and Ali lost his balance, he certainly wasn’t hurt

It was counted, but it shouldn't have been. Anyway, Wepner wasn't a big puncher and crude as hell. I think Canelo could have taken him, but I don't think he'd beat Mathis.

[Controversial]

Before we are finished with Wepner, let's not forget he is one of only 4 to have ever knocked Muhamad Ali off his feet and Ali fought some of the biggest punchers in the history of the heavyweight division.

I wouldn’t read anything into this, it wasn’t counted as a knockdown, not seen it in years but pretty sure he either stepped on his foot and Ali lost his balance, he certainly wasn’t hurt

It was counted, but it shouldn't have been.

My bad, was going by memory and I thought it was discounted but yes it shouldn’t have been

[HomicideHenry]

So basically the consensus is, just a small incremental increase in skills changes everything. Canelo could beat Wepner but not Mathis. So, we'll look towards the light heavyweight division and Artur Beterbiev is the unified (albeit not undisputed) champion.

Could Beterbiev defeat Mathis in a ten rounder?

[Ezzard]

How big is Bet on fight night at LHW? 190?

[Ezzard]

One more thing... It's more advantageous to be a boxer rather than a puncher when moving up in weight. The defensive skills, footwork, speed etc are often in the favour of the smaller man. Punching power always diminishes. Durability etc...

Bivol would likely have more success than Bet.

[HomicideHenry]

One more thing... It's more advantageous to be a boxer rather than a puncher when moving up in weight. The defensive skills, footwork, speed etc are often in the favour of the smaller man. Punching power always diminishes. Durability etc...

Bivol would likely have more success than Bet.

True, but... We are talking about the absolute best of the weight class. But if you are wanting to, you could do a hypothetical on Bivol. Both men in a ten rounder with Buster Mathis.

[Ezzard]

Biv and Bet are p4p fighters and two of the best I have seen at 175 in my lifetime.

Because of weigh ins they are much bigger than the LHWs of the past. I think Bivol would win. Bet I am not so sure of.

[HomicideHenry]

Okay then we will make another incremental increase in skills, instead of Mathis we will have 6'3" 220 pound Ron Lyle in a ten rounder. Can Bivol win?

[hhaehre]

Okay then we will make another incremental increase in skills, instead of Mathis we will have 6'3" 220 pound Ron Lyle in a ten rounder. Can Bivol win?

Nope, Lyle was a massive puncher with good enough skills to land enough.

[Ezzard]

Lyle at 215-220
Bivol at 190-195

Lyle has 4 inch reach advantage and 3 inches in height.

Lyle was a top contender and Bivol a P4p boxer.

Over 10 rounds I would imagine a close fight but lean to Bivol mostly because of styles.

JImmy Young won probably 20 of the 22 rounds of his fights with Lyle. Bivol has size disadvantages but is a great boxer too.

[Controversial]

I read that Badou Jack has turned down Canelo for a CW title defence as Canelo wanted to drain Jack to 180lbs with an added hydration clause. Jack wouldn’t agree but Canelo’s team won’t accept the normal CW limit as the weight difference is too much.

[HomicideHenry]

I read that Badou Jack has turned down Canelo for a CW title defence as Canelo wanted to drain Jack to 180lbs with an added hydration clause. Jack wouldn’t agree but Canelo’s team won’t accept the normal CW limit as the weight difference is too much.

The WBC limit on cruiserweight is 200, and Canelo demanding 180 makes one see Canelo's own limitations not just mentally but physically. Perhaps we should reevaluate whether Canelo actually could've beaten Wepner... if 180 is as high as he's willing to go and Chuck was roughly 220... perhaps Canelo would've not been so keen on it.

Then again this is post-Bivol and Canelo's come down to earth, because prior to he was talking about fighting Usyk ffs. Reality has set in on Canelo. His dream of winning titles from 147 to 200+ is highly unlikely.

On a side note I wish cruiserweight was still 195 tops. Making everything over two hundred pounds to be a heavyweight I think has produced nothing but sluggish types.

[Controversial]

I read that Badou Jack has turned down Canelo for a CW title defence as Canelo wanted to drain Jack to 180lbs with an added hydration clause. Jack wouldn’t agree but Canelo’s team won’t accept the normal CW limit as the weight difference is too much.

The WBC limit on cruiserweight is 200, and Canelo demanding 180 makes one see Canelo's own limitations not just mentally but physically. Perhaps we should reevaluate whether Canelo actually could've beaten Wepner... if 180 is as high as he's willing to go and Chuck was roughly 220... perhaps Canelo would've not been so keen on it.

Then again this is post-Bivol and Canelo's come down to earth, because prior to he was talking about fighting Usyk ffs. Reality has set in on Canelo. His dream of winning titles from 147 to 200+ is highly unlikely.

On a side note I wish cruiserweight was still 195 tops. Making everything over two hundred pounds to be a heavyweight I think has produced nothing but sluggish types.

Badou Jack was a SMW/LHW most of his career too

[HomicideHenry]

I read that Badou Jack has turned down Canelo for a CW title defence as Canelo wanted to drain Jack to 180lbs with an added hydration clause. Jack wouldn’t agree but Canelo’s team won’t accept the normal CW limit as the weight difference is too much.

The WBC limit on cruiserweight is 200, and Canelo demanding 180 makes one see Canelo's own limitations not just mentally but physically. Perhaps we should reevaluate whether Canelo actually could've beaten Wepner... if 180 is as high as he's willing to go and Chuck was roughly 220... perhaps Canelo would've not been so keen on it.

Then again this is post-Bivol and Canelo's come down to earth, because prior to he was talking about fighting Usyk ffs. Reality has set in on Canelo. His dream of winning titles from 147 to 200+ is highly unlikely.

On a side note I wish cruiserweight was still 195 tops. Making everything over two hundred pounds to be a heavyweight I think has produced nothing but sluggish types.

Badou Jack was a SMW/LHW most of his career too

Considering he is much taller than Canelo and much older, his body would be more naturally inclined to become heavier. Easier for him to jump to different weight classes, the height and reach factor. He's 6'1" whereas Canelo is 5'8".

[Controversial]

The WBC limit on cruiserweight is 200, and Canelo demanding 180 makes one see Canelo's own limitations not just mentally but physically. Perhaps we should reevaluate whether Canelo actually could've beaten Wepner... if 180 is as high as he's willing to go and Chuck was roughly 220... perhaps Canelo would've not been so keen on it.

Then again this is post-Bivol and Canelo's come down to earth, because prior to he was talking about fighting Usyk ffs. Reality has set in on Canelo. His dream of winning titles from 147 to 200+ is highly unlikely.

On a side note I wish cruiserweight was still 195 tops. Making everything over two hundred pounds to be a heavyweight I think has produced nothing but sluggish types.

Badou Jack was a SMW/LHW most of his career too

Considering he is much taller than Canelo and much older, his body would be more naturally inclined to become heavier. Easier for him to jump to different weight classes, the height and reach factor. He's 6'1" whereas Canelo is 5'8".

Yes and that’s the point I was making on the 50s HW thread, if you have a bigger frame you can sometimes make the extra weight work. Hearns having success at CW a good example. In reality what’s the difference between Jack and Walcott, both started off smaller and ended up almost 200 in their late 30s and not dissimilar in dimensions. Jack was likely boiling down in his younger years to make the lower weights.

[HomicideHenry]

I think that's why many of the great little men who challenged top heavyweights usually failed in the past. Prime example, Mickey Walker. Great welterweight and middleweight, and started dabbling at light heavyweight and heavyweight because it was easy money because he could make bigger men look silly with his speed and conditioning advantages.

He was good enough to beat men like Bearcat Wright, Johnny Risko, KO Christener, Paulino Uzcudun, King Levinsky, etc but when he fought Max Schmeling for the heavyweight title he was beaten like a rubber ball. Probably the tallest man he beat was Arthur De Kuh who was nearly 6'4" and 223 pounds, whom he stopped in the first round. De Kuh was at one point a top contender.

Walker was 5'7" but back then a heavyweight was 176+ so the gap was easier to close, but once you were up against a heavyweight who was really good like Schmeling the difference was striking. Walker was 174 and Schmeling was 188 a difference of 14 pounds. Walker was absolutely dominated by essentially a modern cruiserweight.

They were good enough to beat many grade C or B level heavyweights, but almost always lost to grade A heavyweights. Which is why we perpetually argue and point out it is so rare to see a successful leap. Otherwise it would happen all the time.



"I have these small hands..." is a scene that comes to mind. LaMotta is a good measuring stick, too. Most of his fights took place at light heavyweight, and the important ones were at middleweight. He could beat a guy like Bob Satterfield who beat heavyweights, but he knew that he couldn't be campaigning against heavyweights. There's a limit to everything.

Then again the hitters from lighter weights almost always failed. It was the movers from lighter weights that usually succeeded. Braddock is a good example. Middleweight and light heavyweight who went to heavyweight and made that transition successfully. Why? He was a tricky mover, using lateral movement. Made Max Baer look pretty silly. But then again, he was nearly 6'3" and could physically adapt to that transition unlike 5'11" Tommy Loughran who beat Braddock at 175.

[adislav123]

agreed to the thing as a whole.

schmeling at 6' 2" 188 would be a modern day fully rehydrated, big ass light heavy.

would be quite interesting to see how max would have done versus modern era top light heavyweights.

[HomicideHenry]

agreed to the thing as a whole.

schmeling at 6' 2" 188 would be a modern day fully rehydrated, big ass light heavy.

would be quite interesting to see how max would have done versus modern era top light heavyweights.

I say cruiserweight because mind you these guys were 200+ pounds and trained down to 188. It wasn't like they were walking around at 188 and fighting at 188.

[p4p1]

agreed to the thing as a whole.

schmeling at 6' 2" 188 would be a modern day fully rehydrated, big ass light heavy.

would be quite interesting to see how max would have done versus modern era top light heavyweights.

I say cruiserweight because mind you these guys were 200+ pounds and trained down to 188. It wasn't like they were walking around at 188 and fighting at 188.

Why wouldn't he be fighting at 188? I'm sure he put on weight between fights, not disputing that at all. But I don't understand why you would be saying Schmeling wouldn't be around, if not the same weight as he weighed in at on fight night.

[margaret thatcher]

that isnt the way boxing works now adays, pretty much no top fighter weighs in the same as they are in the ring

for comparison

6'2 sullivan barrerra was 187 on fight night vs joe smith
6'1 joe smith was 190 on fight night in the same bout

these are light heavies, pretty much the same size as max in the ring. either max would fight light heavy or bulk himself up for higher weights. absolutely no one of note fights at hw or cw at 188 pounds

[HomicideHenry]

agreed to the thing as a whole.

schmeling at 6' 2" 188 would be a modern day fully rehydrated, big ass light heavy.

would be quite interesting to see how max would have done versus modern era top light heavyweights.

I say cruiserweight because mind you these guys were 200+ pounds and trained down to 188. It wasn't like they were walking around at 188 and fighting at 188.

Why wouldn't he be fighting at 188? I'm sure he put on weight between fights, not disputing that at all. But I don't understand why you would be saying Schmeling wouldn't be around, if not the same weight as he weighed in at on fight night.

Back then the mindset was the lightest you could get the better off you were. I suspect that Schmeling in-between matches weighed somewhere between 200-210, and trained down to 188. He wasn't just standing around at 188 in-between bouts. That wasn't his natural weight. Back then fights happened the same day you weighed in.

If fighters today were forced to fight back then they either would have compete weight drained or they would have to fight around their natural walking weight.

All of these middleweights and light heavyweights today would be most likely fighting guys like Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Primo Carnera, etc--- or they would have to roll the dice being weight drained against guys like Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers, etc.

[margaret thatcher]

and now today he'd further be cutting that 188 the day before the weigh in, since he doesnt have to weigh in and fight on the same day (see smith-barrera)

[p4p1]

I say cruiserweight because mind you these guys were 200+ pounds and trained down to 188. It wasn't like they were walking around at 188 and fighting at 188.

Why wouldn't he be fighting at 188? I'm sure he put on weight between fights, not disputing that at all. But I don't understand why you would be saying Schmeling wouldn't be around, if not the same weight as he weighed in at on fight night.

Back then the mindset was the lightest you could get the better off you were. I suspect that Schmeling in-between matches weighed somewhere between 200-210, and trained down to 188. He wasn't just standing around at 188 in-between bouts. That wasn't his natural weight. Back then fights happened the same day you weighed in.

Which is still what is believed by everyone but Heavyweights. Most people operate better at a lighter weight. I know fights happened the same day you weighed in back then, which is part of my point. If 188 was his ideal fighting weight, he would still fight at 188. The difference now is he would dehydrate to 175 and have 24-26 hours to get back to 188. It is unfortunately a part of the sport that you have to do if you want to be competitive now.

[p4p1]

and now today he'd further be cutting that 188 the day before the weigh in, since he doesnt have to weigh in and fight on the same day (see smith-barrera)

It's crazy because some commissions moved the weigh in forward even more for the health of the fighters so they would have more time to be properly hydrated. Of course this just resulted in bigger weight cuts because their is more time to rehydrate