Smallest Possible

[p4p1]

I maintain that guys like sullivan barrera either would have fought weight drained back then and never made it far, or they would have been forced to compete as heavyweights and they wouldn't have made it far either.

These guys would be very unlikely to cut weight for same day weigh ins. Amateur's don't typically cut a lot of weight because they have to make weight over multiple days. The stupidest thing is, because everyone is doing it, you end up fighting the same guys you would (outside of a few extreme examples) if nobody did it.

The guys today only exist in the sport at all to any major degree because of dehydration/hydration and junior/super weight classes today. If they had to compete like guys did back then they never would have made it far.

The jnr/super weight classes definitely make more opportunities. As I said above though, most guys are coming into the ring around the same weight. The top guys would still be the top guys.

I'm an advocate for bringing back same day weigh ins. Either you are a real welterweight, middleweight, etc or you're not. Most of these guys are heavyweights campaigning at lighter weights by old standards.

I doubt anyone would disagree with you. I will say that more divisions between LHW and HW would be needed. People are on average bigger now, there is a lot of people who would be significantly outsized by HWs that have no choice but to fight at HW with same day weigh ins. The problem is the catch 22 with safety. For safety reasons, fighters are now given more time to rehydrate. Because of that fighters cut more weight. The thinking, which is probably correct, is that when millions of dollars are on the line fighters and the people who are supposed to protect them will go to the ring dehydrated. Science says it is exponentially more dangerous, in an already dangerous sport to be dehydrated. Something that was recognised 40 years ago when they cut the last 3 rounds of championship fights. The safest thing to do would be to have the fighters weigh in and take rehydration tests before the fight, however could you imagine the fallout when fights are cancelled because one guy fails to meet the hydration criteria hours before or immediately before the fight? $$$ talk.

And maybe I'm a little biased, but I think the guys back then were far Is more skilled and tough than the guys today. So I have no problems imagining Schmeling at 188 as a cruiserweight. He would overcome all that water weight the juice heads put on overnight.

Depends on the CW. But I am sure even weighing 188lbs he could beat a lot of guys who cut weight to make the 200lb limit.

[p4p1]

it wouldn't be an extreme cut, he's not a usyk or gassiev who weighed a shredded 212 and then drained to make cruiser. now something like them trying to make lhw would be extreme

many lhws weigh around mid-high 180s fight night, it wouldnt be uncommon. even fighters in lower divisions add more weight back than that. mw david lemieux and lmw jamie munguia for example put on over 20 pounds with the extra day after the weigh in. ww maidana put on 18 pounds for mayweather. victor ortiz weighed 146 vs berto then was 161 fight day........there are loads of examples

It depends on the fighter, they don't all manipulate weight with water loss and some do it more extreme than others. Some fighters walk around a similar weight to what they fight at, Hopkins and FMM spring to mind. I also remember seeing an interview with Enzo Maccarinelli where he said he weighed pretty much the same in-between fights .

Enzo Mac fought the majority of his career at CW and likely did weigh in the same or very similar by fight time. But context here is everything. Despite making his debut in 99 and never dipped below 185 after a string of losses he decided size must have been a factor and dropped down to LHW where for most of those fights he hovered just above the limit when a title wasn't on the line. He certainly was walking around at 175ish and there was a revolution during his career with weight cutting.
Mayweather himself, while never a big drainer came to the ring in some of his SFW fights at 138/9.

[margaret thatcher]

we have his weights, he added 10+ pounds multiple occasions. he was higher than 167 even when fighting at a low catchweight, hbo weighed him.

Yeah he will lose some weight of course, anyone training hard will lose weight unless specifically aiming to bulk up. Hopkins was a MW for around 15 years up to the age of 40 which shows he wasn’t struggling to make the weight. What I meant was he wasn’t cutting huge amounts like you were saying Schmeling would to make LHW. Hopkins was cutting 8-10lbs, Schmeling would have had to likely cut close to 30lbs.

no, he'd just have to drain the last 12 pounds or so of fluid, something he never did as a fighter. he could then add that back on with the day between the weigh in and fight. it's not extra fat or muscle he'd be training down through burning more calories than he takes in.

fighters today get themselves ripped and into fighting shape through training and diet just like shmelling did. the cutting of fluid is an added step and it's been shown over and over and over that guys who are already ripped, far more so than max, can still drain 15+ pounds and then put it on the next day

even your own examples show it. hopkins got himself ripped at about 169 or possibly even more, drained to 156 for the weigh in, and added fluid back to be 169 the next day for the fight. max wouldnt have been through this process since he had no weight limit to make and had to fight on the same day as the weigh in, but he could certainly do it

[p4p1]

we have his weights, he added 10+ pounds multiple occasions. he was higher than 167 even when fighting at a low catchweight, hbo weighed him.

Yeah he will lose some weight of course, anyone training hard will lose weight unless specifically aiming to bulk up. Hopkins was a MW for around 15 years up to the age of 40 which shows he wasn’t struggling to make the weight. What I meant was he wasn’t cutting huge amounts like you were saying Schmeling would to make LHW. Hopkins was cutting 8-10lbs, Schmeling would have had to likely cut close to 30lbs.

As with Enzo, Hopkins fought during a time were fighters started learning how to take advantage of the weigh ins the day before the fight. Because Hopkins was a gym rat he never blew up between fights so was always more or less around the same weight that he fought at. That weight was less when he was younger, I would be confident in saying that in the early 90s he probably weighed 160ish on fight night. As he got older he would have been able to get away with simply not intaking much water the day before the weigh in, having a really small dinner and not eating or drinking on the morning of the weigh in. You can still be 5+ pounds lighter at the weigh in by doing that alone. Then the older he gets, thus getting a bit bigger he has to stop food and water for 24 hours before the weigh in or he stops food and water a little bit later and goes in the steam room or sauna. Still very mild compared to what some guys do.

Back to Schmeling. He isn't cutting 30lbs of weight. Cutting is done for the weigh in. He is training down, getting rid of excess fat and weight etc. He has a weight he knows he needs to be at fully hydrated at the week of the weigh in. For the sake of round numbers lets say he knows he needs to be at 190lbs and anything under is just gravy. 24 hours before the weigh in at 6pm he jumps on the scale and he is dead on 190lbs, he won't drink or eat from then on. He also would have been eating low fibre and sodium foods to help him lose water weight but will be 'water loading' which is drinking excessive amounts of water so that when he stops drinking water his body will still keep getting rid of it once he has become dehydrated. Going 24 hours without food and very minimal drinking, just enough to wet your mouth isn't that hard. From experience he knows he will lose, lets say 6lbs over that 20ish hour period. He checks on the scale a couple of hours before the weigh in and he is bang on 184lbs. The weigh in is downstairs so he doesn't have to account for travel time. In 10 minute sessions he will jump in a horribly hot bath and lose roughly 1.5lbs. 5 min break. Then back into the bath. He does it 6 times while checking his weight after each session and after 6 he has lost the additional 9 pounds and is sitting dead on 175. He rehydrates and eats properly and is back up to 190lbs by fight time.

So a cut of 30lbs isn't what is happening, from his 200-210lbs he is getting in fighting shape first by eating right and training hard. The weight comes off easily. When you hear someone doing a cut of 25-30lbs it is generally an MMA guy. A friend of mine who was an MMA fighter would weigh in at 77kgs (170lbs) and by fight time he would be 88-89kgs (194-196lbs). That same friend also went to hospital a couple of times because his kidneys started failing during the cut. In theory Schmeling (and others) could cut enough water weight to come to the ring at 200lbs after making 175.

[margaret thatcher]

ya the extra draining done today is for the weigh in, it's not the guy cutting his body fat or anything. it's an additional step beyond training and dieting

the guys today cutting 15+ pounds are dieting + training to get their arses in top shape just like max, in fact many have clearly trained down to a lower level of body fat than him. the extra cut/drain comes after. he would be able to do this just like everyone else.

[HomicideHenry]

The more we talk about dehydration practices the more I think it needs to be banned. I'm reminded of gerald mcclellan, who did not hydrate enough and out went the lights and he still thinks it's the 1990s.

Or I'm reminded of the man I fought J'Leon Love. He was 168 on the scales, but the next day was 27 pounds heavier. He later got busted for an illegal diuretic and his NABF title match was rendered a no-contest. He now competes as a cruiserweight.

All of these middleweights are really cruiserweights and ought to be competing there. Or at the very least should fight one weight class down from their "in shape" weight (different from walking around civilian weight).

[Controversial]

So how regular can these guys fight that are cutting for weigh-ins? Can you fight numerous times a year like the old timers often did or does if force you to fight less often?

[Controversial]

we have his weights, he added 10+ pounds multiple occasions. he was higher than 167 even when fighting at a low catchweight, hbo weighed him.

Yeah he will lose some weight of course, anyone training hard will lose weight unless specifically aiming to bulk up. Hopkins was a MW for around 15 years up to the age of 40 which shows he wasn’t struggling to make the weight. What I meant was he wasn’t cutting huge amounts like you were saying Schmeling would to make LHW. Hopkins was cutting 8-10lbs, Schmeling would have had to likely cut close to 30lbs.

As with Enzo, Hopkins fought during a time were fighters started learning how to take advantage of the weigh ins the day before the fight. Because Hopkins was a gym rat he never blew up between fights so was always more or less around the same weight that he fought at. That weight was less when he was younger, I would be confident in saying that in the early 90s he probably weighed 160ish on fight night. As he got older he would have been able to get away with simply not intaking much water the day before the weigh in, having a really small dinner and not eating or drinking on the morning of the weigh in. You can still be 5+ pounds lighter at the weigh in by doing that alone. Then the older he gets, thus getting a bit bigger he has to stop food and water for 24 hours before the weigh in or he stops food and water a little bit later and goes in the steam room or sauna. Still very mild compared to what some guys do.

Back to Schmeling. He isn't cutting 30lbs of weight. Cutting is done for the weigh in. He is training down, getting rid of excess fat and weight etc. He has a weight he knows he needs to be at fully hydrated at the week of the weigh in. For the sake of round numbers lets say he knows he needs to be at 190lbs and anything under is just gravy. 24 hours before the weigh in at 6pm he jumps on the scale and he is dead on 190lbs, he won't drink or eat from then on. He also would have been eating low fibre and sodium foods to help him lose water weight but will be 'water loading' which is drinking excessive amounts of water so that when he stops drinking water his body will still keep getting rid of it once he has become dehydrated. Going 24 hours without food and very minimal drinking, just enough to wet your mouth isn't that hard. From experience he knows he will lose, lets say 6lbs over that 20ish hour period. He checks on the scale a couple of hours before the weigh in and he is bang on 184lbs. The weigh in is downstairs so he doesn't have to account for travel time. In 10 minute sessions he will jump in a horribly hot bath and lose roughly 1.5lbs. 5 min break. Then back into the bath. He does it 6 times while checking his weight after each session and after 6 he has lost the additional 9 pounds and is sitting dead on 175. He rehydrates and eats properly and is back up to 190lbs by fight time.

So a cut of 30lbs isn't what is happening, from his 200-210lbs he is getting in fighting shape first by eating right and training hard. The weight comes off easily. When you hear someone doing a cut of 25-30lbs it is generally an MMA guy. A friend of mine who was an MMA fighter would weigh in at 77kgs (170lbs) and by fight time he would be 88-89kgs (194-196lbs). That same friend also went to hospital a couple of times because his kidneys started failing during the cut. In theory Schmeling (and others) could cut enough water weight to come to the ring at 200lbs after making 175.

Cheers, it's interesting. So what weight do you think someone like Marciano could likely compete at?

[p4p1]

Cheers, it's interesting. So what weight do you think someone like Marciano could likely compete at?

I think Rocky was normally around 185? I think he could make 175 quite easily with weigh ins as they are now, he would probably do 168 without much of a problem.
Looking at UFC LWs (155lbs) and some of their fight night weights, they are coming to the ring somewhere around 180lbs. He was so dedicated and fastidious, he probably could do a big cut to make 160 if he really wanted to. On one hand, with his style being the bigger man in the ring would make him an even scarier proposition, on the other hand because of his style, its ferocity and output, the weight cut could really impact him the longer the fight goes. Looking at some photos of him, he was certainly in good shape but not the same shape we see most non-heavyweights in. He could probably drop a few pounds during camp to make the cut to 160 a bit easier. FWIW Canelo was came in at 174 for the Angulo fight that was at 155lbs. Rocky is one of the strongest willed men to have ever been in the ring, so there is no reason to believe he couldn't make 160 if we wanted to in the current rules.

[Controversial]

Cheers, it's interesting. So what weight do you think someone like Marciano could likely compete at?

I think Rocky was normally around 185? I think he could make 175 quite easily with weigh ins as they are now, he would probably do 168 without much of a problem.
Looking at UFC LWs (155lbs) and some of their fight night weights, they are coming to the ring somewhere around 180lbs. He was so dedicated and fastidious, he probably could do a big cut to make 160 if he really wanted to. On one hand, with his style being the bigger man in the ring would make him an even scarier proposition, on the other hand because of his style, its ferocity and output, the weight cut could really impact him the longer the fight goes. Looking at some photos of him, he was certainly in good shape but not the same shape we see most non-heavyweights in. He could probably drop a few pounds during camp to make the cut to 160 a bit easier. FWIW Canelo was came in at 174 for the Angulo fight that was at 155lbs. Rocky is one of the strongest willed men to have ever been in the ring, so there is no reason to believe he couldn't make 160 if we wanted to in the current rules.

So how regular can these guys fight that are cutting for weigh-ins? Can you fight numerous times a year like the old timers often did or does if force you to fight less often? It certainly makes you wonder how much some fighters success is down to being so much bigger than their opponent on fight night.

[HomicideHenry]

Like I said they never would have made it in those times especially with the kind of purses they had back then where you had to fight all the time. They would have either been weight drained or they wouldn't have had the punch resistance to fight at higher weights.

[Ezzard]

The more we talk about dehydration practices the more I think it needs to be banned. I'm reminded of gerald mcclellan, who did not hydrate enough and out went the lights and he still thinks it's the 1990s.

Or I'm reminded of the man I fought J'Leon Love. He was 168 on the scales, but the next day was 27 pounds heavier. He later got busted for an illegal diuretic and his NABF title match was rendered a no-contest. He now competes as a cruiserweight.

All of these middleweights are really cruiserweights and ought to be competing there. Or at the very least should fight one weight class down from their "in shape" weight (different from walking around civilian weight).

Agree. It's why these multiple weight champs are now so prevalent.

[Controversial]

Like I said they never would have made it in those times especially with the kind of purses they had back then where you had to fight all the time. They would have either been weight drained or they wouldn't have had the punch resistance to fight at higher weights.

So potentially one of the reasons the top guys aren't as active anymore?

[Ezzard]

I think the use of PEDs is another reason. But draining has to be a big one.

[HomicideHenry]

Like I said they never would have made it in those times especially with the kind of purses they had back then where you had to fight all the time. They would have either been weight drained or they wouldn't have had the punch resistance to fight at higher weights.

So potentially one of the reasons the top guys aren't as active anymore?

Basically most of the sport is that way anymore because of these dehydrattion practices, and potential drug cycles. Throw in ego's and greedy promoters and managers you end up with stagnation. The only active individuals in boxing are the tiersmen and journeymen.

[p4p1]

Like I said they never would have made it in those times especially with the kind of purses they had back then where you had to fight all the time. They would have either been weight drained or they wouldn't have had the punch resistance to fight at higher weights.

So potentially one of the reasons the top guys aren't as active anymore?

Basically most of the sport is that way anymore because of these dehydrattion practices, and potential drug cycles. Throw in ego's and greedy promoters and managers you end up with stagnation. The only active individuals in boxing are the tiersmen and journeymen.

I'm sure guys could fight more often than 1-2 times a year and still dehydrate 'safely.' Where you hit the nail on the head though is ego's, promoters and managers. I'm also sure that if some of the old timers who used to fight ever other week were getting paid more, they would have fought less. That is apparent with HWs during that era who were making significantly more money than anyone else.
PPV dates, Arena dates, TV dates etc. and fights now take a lot longer to put together than a few managers and a promoter agreeing to terms with each other. Then add the fact that if I am a manager/fighter/promoter, between me signing to fight the guy and having the fight, I don't want the other guy to have another fight lose because that would hurt my bottom line and/or mean our fight is no longer for a title. At the elite level, I can understand why fights take so long to get put together. It doesn't mean I have to like it though.

[p4p1]

Like I said they never would have made it in those times especially with the kind of purses they had back then where you had to fight all the time. They would have either been weight drained or they wouldn't have had the punch resistance to fight at higher weights.

They just wouldn't have cut weight. The weight draining actually hurts your punch resistance. Some guys have gone from a bit chinny when they were killing themselves to make weight to being quite durable when they were fighting at a more comfortable weight.

Like I said the really stupid thing about the practice of cutting weight is that because everyone is doing it, you end up fighting the same guys you would have without it.

[Controversial]

Like I said they never would have made it in those times especially with the kind of purses they had back then where you had to fight all the time. They would have either been weight drained or they wouldn't have had the punch resistance to fight at higher weights.

They just wouldn't have cut weight. The weight draining actually hurts your punch resistance. Some guys have gone from a bit chinny when they were killing themselves to make weight to being quite durable when they were fighting at a more comfortable weight.

Like I said the really stupid thing about the practice of cutting weight is that because everyone is doing it, you end up fighting the same guys you would have without it.

It is stupid as I remember Bellew saying he was so weak against Stevenson that he went into the fight knowing he only had three good rounds in him as he just couldn’t make the weight anymore and had to go through hell to manage it. No surprise in his next fight a few months later Bellew was 23 pounds heavier

[Controversial]

I was listening to a few Tim Bradley interviews and after the Ruslan fight he mentioned he weighed 185lbs when he went into training. I can’t imagine him being out of shape as he always looked in fantastic condition


.

[goose 5]

Bradley followed a vegan diet when in training.

[Controversial]

Bradley followed a vegan diet when in training.

Yeah he did, there are some photos of him looking a lot bigger between fights though

[AngryGoon38]

I was watching a highlights video last night, of "Samuel Peter - James Toney".

Toney of course was a SMW for a good length of time, and actually was one of the smaller boxers in that 168 lb division, standing a mere 5'9 tall.

As a HW, "James Toney" was A Mesmerizing sight to behold. The added weight wasn't even Muscle-Weight.
He was literally basically still just a SMW, who looked like he had Mounds of Blubber grafted onto his frame.
It looked like he was just in the ring, as a 3 month long trainingless Couch-Potato, with literally No Training Camp whatsoever, beforehand.

The way he was able to go the distance with The Much Naturally Bigger "Sam Peter" was Really Something.
He Dodged Most of Sam's punches, and even when caught, James handled the punches like A full sized HW, and one that also has a very Durable Head and Jaw.
Makes me wonder about how other Greats at Smaller weight divisions, who remained at smaller weight divisions, could've acclimated themselves, upon gaining a massive amount of Excess-Blubber weight, transforming themselves into Short Fat HW's. "Marvin Hagler" specifically comes to mind. Especially being that he was 5'9-1/2. But he Did have A lengthy reach of 75", and was very renowned for his Extra Level of Durability.

[HomicideHenry]

I was watching a highlights video last night, of "Samuel Peter - James Toney".

Toney of course was a SMW for a good length of time, and actually was one of the smaller boxers in that 168 lb division, standing a mere 5'9 tall.

As a HW, "James Toney" was A Mesmerizing sight to behold. The added weight wasn't even Muscle-Weight.
He was literally basically still just a SMW, who looked like he had Mounds of Blubber grafted onto his frame.
It looked like he was just in the ring, as a 3 month long trainingless Couch-Potato, with literally No Training Camp whatsoever, beforehand.

The way he was able to go the distance with The Much Naturally Bigger "Sam Peter" was Really Something.
He Dodged Most of Sam's punches, and even when caught, James handled the punches like A full sized HW, and one that also has a very Durable Head and Jaw.
Makes me wonder about how other Greats at Smaller weight divisions, who remained at smaller weight divisions, could've acclimated themselves, upon gaining a massive amount of Excess-Blubber weight, transforming themselves into Short Fat HW's. "Marvin Hagler" specifically comes to mind. Especially being that he was 5'9-1/2. But he Did have A lengthy reach of 75", and was very renowned for his Extra Level of Durability.

Willie Meehan comes to mind.

5'9" and roughly in that 185-200 pound range, looking real pudgy. Jack Dempsey couldn't do nothing with him. Had he really trained he might've been a middleweight.