What if #1 Terrible Tim

[Ezzard]

As I am enjoying Elmer's Top 100 p4p series so much I thought I'd start one of my own.

May 20 1983 was a great time for me. And it was also the end of Larry Holmes' prime years IMO.

He won a split decision against Witherspoon and many people thought Tim deserved the decision. What if he did get the decision? What happens next? How does it play out?

[Ezzard]

My guess is Holmes gets an immediate rematch as the fight was so close. Larry would have seethed and trained harder than ever to get his title back. But with a win under his belt, if Tim can stay motivated I would expect him to win another close decision.

The challengers are then

Scott Frank
Marvis Frazier
James Smith
David Bey
Carl Williams

That's a pretty mediocre list at best for a champ to take on. I can hear our friend Broughton laughing his head off... And look forward to his take on this subject.

I would expect only Smith who KO'd Tim in 1 to be a potential banana skin, other than Tim's legendary lack of motivation. Even so, I think he wins all these fights more often than not.

Likely Tim loses to Tyson eventually. Or maybe earlier to Pinklon Thomas in a unification.

[Ezzard]

And Holmes?

He still had a lot to offer and would still have some outstanding wins to come. Likely he picks up the IBF belt at some point? Maybe he has to fight someone like a Greg Page, Trevor Berbick or even Frank Bruno to do so.

[Joson]

If the 1983 decision had gone Tim's way, there would have been a mandatory rematch. IMO Holmes would win the rematch by decision, fighting more convincingly than in the first fight. After that, it's business as usual for each boxer, in terms of who and how well they fight.

Tim's would-be victory in May 1983 would turn out to be a blip on the heavyweight radar screen. Nothing more.

[Manrae]

As I am enjoying Elmer's Top 100 p4p series so much I thought I'd start one of my own.

May 20 1983 was a great time for me. And it was also the end of Larry Holmes' prime years IMO.

He won a split decision against Witherspoon and many people thought Tim deserved the decision. What if he did get the decision? What happens next? How does it play out?

Holmes would've beaten him soundly in a rematch. 1st fight was not a robbery nor should it have been controversial. 118-111 is wide, but not inconceivable. Neither was 115-114 TW. Many close rounds, great fight, but Larry wouldn't have underestimated TW in a rematch.

[Ezzard]

That's if he did underestimate him. Spoon is always a problem for Holmes. He can catch a jab and has a great right hand counter, two things that will always give Larry a tough night.

[Manrae]

That's if he did underestimate him. Spoon is always a problem for Holmes. He can catch a jab and has a great right hand counter, two things that will always give Larry a tough night.

Everyone did, it was just another mismatch, on paper. There was nothing leading into this fight that even slightly suggested otherwise. Tim made a name for himself, but in a rematch, I firmly believe it would be worse for TW.

[Seamus]

I think Witherspoon is number 1 alltime in the division's most wasted potential category, at least on this forum. You have to remember Tim didn't look that good in his last outing before the Holmes fight. I had Snipes beating him by a point.

[Ezzard]

He's probably the best HW between the Holmes and Tyson primes.

[Jaywheel]

If you're going by elmer's logic, he would have eventually lost the title to Duran.

[HomicideHenry]

Holmes and Witherspoon might've had a trilogy.

[jwfg]

As I am enjoying Elmer's Top 100 p4p series so much I thought I'd start one of my own.

May 20 1983 was a great time for me. And it was also the end of Larry Holmes' prime years IMO.

He won a split decision against Witherspoon and many people thought Tim deserved the decision. What if he did get the decision? What happens next? How does it play out?

Great thread. I say they have a rematch and Witherspoon wins the by a wafer thin decision. Then he fights Gerrie Coetzee for the undisputed in Vegas, Witherspoon is way better, but I think back to back wins over Holmes go to his head and he struggles to a majority decision. Following a six month break, Tim drops a tight decision to Pinklon Thomas. Pinky's first defence is against non other than Larry Holmes, who turns up in great shape, fully motivated and jabs Thomas' head off for a near shut out decision.

[Riddick Bowie]

Witherspoon would have beaten Witherspoon in the rematch. Had he got the decision in 83 he would have partied non-stop and a determined Holmes would eke out a decision over a Terrible Tim that looked more like the unfocused guy of the Page, Thomas, Bonecrusher fights.

Only defending the title abroad against Bruno, before a monster crowd, seemed to inspire Spoon as much as Holmes did. He had even more natural talent than Holmes, but not Holmes' drive, that indomitable will that distinguishes the great fighters. All of Tim Witherspoon's losses were to Tim Witherspoon.

[jwfg]

Witherspoon would have beaten Witherspoon in the rematch.

[Nile4000]

Terrible Tim fights Larry in a rematch and loses the title back in a much closer fight than the first one. He defeats everybody and everyone he has to face until Tyson in late '86.

[funso banjo baby]

Was Tim with King?

Would there have been a rematch? They were rare in those days.

Under King Witherspoon would still have had the curse in his first defence

I doubt if Scott frank or Marvis would have been in line for a shot.

[jwfg]

Was Tim with King?

Would there have been a rematch? They were rare in those days.

Under King Witherspoon would still have had the curse in his first defence

I doubt if Scott frank or Marvis would have been in line for a shot.

Larry had a rematch with the first guy who beat him.

[funso banjo baby]

Rare

[bwu]

Looking at the heavyweight division from '78 (when it splintered after Leon Spinks won the title) to '88 (when Mike Tyson knocked out Michael Spinks to end any question about the championship), the only losing titlists who were granted immediate rematches were Ali, Holmes, Weaver and Tubbs. The latter ended up getting injured and had to sub out.

L. Spinks, Tate, Dokes, Coetzee, Page, Witherspoon (two reigns), Smith, Norton, Thomas, Berbick, Tucker and M. Spinks were passed over. Rare is a fair description.

[jwfg]

Looking at the heavyweight division from '78 (when it splintered after Leon Spinks won the title) to '88 (when Mike Tyson knocked out Michael Spinks to end any question about the championship), the only losing titlists who were granted immediate rematches were Ali, Holmes, Weaver and Tubbs. The latter ended up getting injured and had to sub out.

L. Spinks, Tate, Dokes, Coetzee, Page, Witherspoon (two reigns), Smith, Norton, Thomas, Berbick, Tucker and M. Spinks were passed over. Rare is a fair description.

Yes, but we are talking about Larry Holmes, none of the others. History tells us that when he lost for the first time, he had a rematch. It's fair to assume he would have had one if he lost to WItherspoon.

[bwu]

I don't think anyone is necessarily wrong here. It wouldn't be a shock if a losing Holmes was given the first crack at Witherspoon, but calling it rare was accurate.

At this point, I don't think I've seen anyone suggest the following (and no, I'm not trying to drag us into fantasy fight territory). I think Holmes getting a rematch would depend largely on how well he was getting along with Don King at the time. I'm also thinking that there's someone we haven't mentioned who would've been given a shot at Witherspoon before Holmes or any of the ranked contenders if it could be arranged: Gerry Cooney.

I'm guessing that Big Ger gets the shot for all the wrong reasons. They give him a couple of warm up bouts that he wins easily while Spoon stays inactive. The latter wins anyway, lets his appetites get out of control and ends up losing a rematch with a determined Holmes. The latter holds the title until Tyson comes along.

Here's another weighty prospect: Does the IBF gain any traction in this world? Holmes casting aside the WBC title and taking their belt gave them instant recognition. That doesn't happen here. Does that mean that maybe the IBF just withers away, like other lesser know sanctioning organizations?