Oleksandr Usyk vs George Foreman

[Ambling Alp II]

I'd be the last guy to defend Joshua, but let's not dismiss his punching power.

It is not at the same level at George Foreman's. Surely you would agree with that?
Foreman was much better than Joshua (in almost every way), who Usyk did not beat that badly.

[Seamus]

He did in the first bout and had Joshua hurt at the bell. AJ had much better stamina than Foreman, who began to look crude as he tired. Old George had a much higher ring IQ than Young George.

[elmersalsa]

I have never seen Oleksander Usyk fight. So, I don't have any predictions.

But, I do really know, was that Big George had lots of problems with slick boxers like Muhammad Ali and Jimmy Young. Is Usyk as slick as these two?

Even Tommy Morrison beat Big George with using boxing skills, but that version of Foreman was older, slower and over the hill.

[Seamus]

Watch this Elmer, it's a good one

[Ambling Alp II]

Then watch Foreman against Frazier, and Norton. Who looked more impressive?

Usyk has his 21st fight this month against the legendary Daniel Duboius. Imagine what a win would prove?
Another busy year.
He had a fight in 2022, one 2021, one in 2020, and another in 2019! Very busy proving that he would beat one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

[Seamus]

And in his 16th fight Foreman faded badly in the last 3 rds against Gregorio Peralta.

[Ambling Alp II]

And Foreman had been a pro for less than 8 months. Foreman won the fight and stopped him in the rematch. You are getting desperate.

[Seamus]

Not at all. Foreman was a huge puncher, but he faded against Peralta, Ali, Young. Usyk has very good stamina, and he's taken hard shots from Joshua without going down. Foreman would have to get him in the first 3 to win, and Usyk would be showing lots of movement. A fast southpaw with good handspeed, movement, stamina and a solid chin is a bad matchup for Foreman by the 4th rd. Frazier and Norton went toe to toe with George and got annihilated. Young showed movement and Foreman was wild and off balance by mid rounds.

[margaret thatcher]

Then watch Foreman against Frazier, and Norton. Who looked more impressive?

Usyk has his 21st fight this month against the legendary Daniel Duboius. Imagine what a win would prove?
Another busy year.
He had a fight in 2022, one 2021, one in 2020, and another in 2019! Very busy proving that he would beat one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

and if only usyk had more fights vs the likes of legendary '10 round fighters' like michael rush or jason robinson or sinon asipeli, he might have been able to catch up to james toney in the all time cruiser rankings. imagine what those wins would prove

[Cojimar 1946]

He wasn't past his prime to the extent that one would expect him to get blown out easily by guys he would beat at his best. Were talking about a guy who turned pro around 24 and didn't start facing top opponents until 1973. Given that and him not fighting frequently from 1973 onwards he didn't have a lot of wear and tear. At that stage he should have been able to still win or at least had the advantage in the early rounds until he ran out of energy due to age and lack of conditioning. Also I think Shavers was as far past it as Norton when they fought so there the argument doesn't even make sense.

Joshua and Gassiev whatever their flaws certainly seem like bigger punchers than Ali Quarry etc as were Cooney and Shavers so yeah I don't like Nortons chances in either fight

Gassiev was a bigger puncher than Quarry, Ali, and Holmes? Really?
Norton wasn't fighting enough? He had 19 fights from 1973 to the end of his career. That is one less than Usyk has in his entire career. The Holmes fight alone was a war.
Norton was absolutely shot when he fought Cooney. There is no getting around that.
You don't know what you are talking about.

If we are talking pure power than yes I think it certainly appears Gassiev is absolutely above Ali Holmes etc. Watching his fights and how people react to his punches seems to pretty clearly bear this out.

Being past your prime doesn't mean you suddenly lose all punch resistance. The manner of his defeat to Shavers and Cooney strongly suggest he lost because he couldn't handle punchers not because he was old. If so you would have expected Cobb and Holmes to blow him out.

[Ambling Alp II]

Cobb couldn't punch at all. Norton still had a lot left in the Holmes fight. He didn't have much left by the time he fought Cooney. He wouldn't have just been target practice had they fought in Norton's prime.
Try watching Norton vs Holmes or Quarry. Holmes stopped one contender after another. Couldn't stop Norton in 15 rounds.

Do you seriously think Gassiev hits as hard as Foreman?

[Ambling Alp II]

Not at all. Foreman was a huge puncher, but he faded against Peralta, Ali, Young. Usyk has very good stamina, and he's taken hard shots from Joshua without going down. Foreman would have to get him in the first 3 to win, and Usyk would be showing lots of movement. A fast southpaw with good handspeed, movement, stamina and a solid chin is a bad matchup for Foreman by the 4th rd. Frazier and Norton went toe to toe with George and got annihilated. Young showed movement and Foreman was wild and off balance by mid rounds.

He won the Peralta fight. He had been a pro for 8 months. That doesn't count for anything? Come on.
He threw a ton of bombs in the Ali fight. Would have taken out Usyk and just about anyone else in that fight.

[Joson]

He did in the first bout and had Joshua hurt at the bell. AJ had much better stamina than Foreman, who began to look crude as he tired. Old George had a much higher ring IQ than Young George.

I remember that was the knock on Foreman in the 1970s. It was proven first by Ali in the 1974 Zaire fight, and again in 1977, this time by Jimmy Young.

Foreman could KO almost anyone within three or four rounds. But the few times he was extended beyond the sixth, Big George almost always showed serious fatigue.

Gil Clancy, who became Foreman's new trainer in 1976, tried to work on the stamina problem. He taught Foreman to patiently rely on his jab, to throw fewer but better directed punches, and conserve strength.

For a while Foreman looked like a new fighter, until slick-boxing Jimmy Young extended him beyond the sixth round. George became so exhausted he looked as if he'd trip over his own feet.

Surprisingly, when the "old" Foreman launched a comeback in 1987, he no longer exhibited faulty stamina. Like a miracle of nature had happened.

[Seamus]

Nah, he just fought smarter. Conserved his energy and covered up better.

[Ambling Alp II]

He fought at a much slower pace because he had no choice. He simply could not fight at that kind of pace when he got older. When he was older, sometimes he would land a good punch, but could not follow up on it because he simply did not have the energy anymore. When he was younger, he would have jumped all over the guy and put him away.

When he was in his prime, he fought at fast pace and that almost always worked. It didn't work against Ali, but nothing would have. Had he fought at a slower pace he certainly would not have won a decision.

The Young fight really wasn't just a stamina issue. For whatever reason, he looked bad for most of that fight, even in the early rounds.

The whole stamina thing is not based on much. The big evidence amounts to losing to Ali and not knocking a guy when he had 8 months of experience.

[oogiebe]

He fought at a much slower pace because he had no choice. He simply could not fight at that kind of pace when he got older. When he was older, sometimes he would land a good punch, but could not follow up on it because he simply did not have the energy anymore. When he was younger, he would have jumped all over the guy and put him away.

When he was in his prime, he fought at fast pace and that almost always worked. It didn't work against Ali, but nothing would have. Had he fought at a slower pace he certainly would not have won a decision.

The Young fight really wasn't just a stamina issue. For whatever reason, he looked bad for most of that fight, even in the early rounds.

The whole stamina thing is not based on much. The big evidence amounts to losing to Ali and not knocking a guy when he had 8 months of experience.

Old George was way more relaxed in the ring. That's why he didn't have the stamina issues of young and TENSE George who tried to wreck everything in front of him for most of his early career. Anyone who's ever been in the ring knows that being tense takes your strength/endurance away quickly. The Young fight was a poorly trained change of style and the heat/humidity.

[Ambling Alp II]

He was relaxed because he had to be. There is no way at that age that he could fight that aggressively. Old George had some success doing that, but never would have beaten a great fighter that way. Old George would not have beaten Frazier, Norton or Lyle.
The younger Foreman was aggressive and threw a lot of big punches, landing a lot of them. He fought well against Ali and would have beaten almost anyone else. He didn't fight well against Young, but it really didn't have much to do with him being tense or getting tired.

[Cojimar 1946]

Cobb couldn't punch at all. Norton still had a lot left in the Holmes fight. He didn't have much left by the time he fought Cooney. He wouldn't have just been target practice had they fought in Norton's prime.
Try watching Norton vs Holmes or Quarry. Holmes stopped one contender after another. Couldn't stop Norton in 15 rounds.

Do you seriously think Gassiev hits as hard as Foreman?

Beating Cobb suggests he had a bit left. Cobb beat Mercado, beat a faded Shavers gave Dokes trouble. Hard to gauge his power exactly as many of the guys he failed to kayo were better fighters so he likely wouldn't have been in good position to utilize his power. Norton was only 37 which isn't that old especially given he turned pro late and less than 4 years removed from what I would consider his prime which I feel ended in 1977.

[Seamus]

Norton didn't have a glass jaw, but it was the weakest chink in his armor, something Jose Luis Garcia proved early in his career.

[Ambling Alp II]

.

Cobb couldn't punch at all. Norton still had a lot left in the Holmes fight. He didn't have much left by the time he fought Cooney. He wouldn't have just been target practice had they fought in Norton's prime.
Try watching Norton vs Holmes or Quarry. Holmes stopped one contender after another. Couldn't stop Norton in 15 rounds.

Do you seriously think Gassiev hits as hard as Foreman?

Beating Cobb suggests he had a bit left. Cobb beat Mercado, beat a faded Shavers gave Dokes trouble. Hard to gauge his power exactly as many of the guys he failed to kayo were better fighters so he likely wouldn't have been in good position to utilize his power. Norton was only 37 which isn't that old especially given he turned pro late and less than 4 years removed from what I would consider his prime which I feel ended in 1977.

Your argument makes no sense. You claim that his prime ended in 1977. Then it was "only" four years later when he fought Cooney. 4 years past your prime is a long time. A very long time.
Norton never looked good again after the Holmes fight. It took a lot out of him and accelerated his decline. Cobb was terrible. Watch Norton's fight against Scott Ledoux; he looked awful. Was not the same fighter anymore.

Anyway, Foreman hit a helluva lot harder than Gassiev, which is the point you keep trying to get away from. Usyk would be going into completely unchartered waters here.

[Ambling Alp II]

Norton didn't have a glass jaw, but it was the weakest chink in his armor, something Jose Luis Garcia proved early in his career.

That fight was in 1970. Why do you put so much emphasis on fights where clearly the guy is not reached his prime yet? Should we start counting Minor League baseball stats when looking at baseball players?
Who put him down between Garcia in 1970 and the Shavers fight in 1979?
Think that would only be George...

[Cojimar 1946]

.

Cobb couldn't punch at all. Norton still had a lot left in the Holmes fight. He didn't have much left by the time he fought Cooney. He wouldn't have just been target practice had they fought in Norton's prime.
Try watching Norton vs Holmes or Quarry. Holmes stopped one contender after another. Couldn't stop Norton in 15 rounds.

Do you seriously think Gassiev hits as hard as Foreman?

Beating Cobb suggests he had a bit left. Cobb beat Mercado, beat a faded Shavers gave Dokes trouble. Hard to gauge his power exactly as many of the guys he failed to kayo were better fighters so he likely wouldn't have been in good position to utilize his power. Norton was only 37 which isn't that old especially given he turned pro late and less than 4 years removed from what I would consider his prime which I feel ended in 1977.

Your argument makes no sense. You claim that his prime ended in 1977. Then it was "only" four years later when he fought Cooney. 4 years past your prime is a long time. A very long time.
Norton never looked good again after the Holmes fight. It took a lot out of him and accelerated his decline. Cobb was terrible. Watch Norton's fight against Scott Ledoux; he looked awful. Was not the same fighter anymore.

Anyway, Foreman hit a helluva lot harder than Gassiev, which is the point you keep trying to get away from. Usyk would be going into completely unchartered waters here.

Cobb was a decent performance. Against LeDoux he was doing well early and seemed to run out of energy late. Weren't you picking Cobb over Deontay Wilder just a bit ago?

We have plenty of examples of badly shot guys showing good durability and not getting blown out.

Tyson was far past it against Lewis and wasn't blown out in 1 round despite taking lots of huge shots. Langford was well past it vs Fulton and Fulton still had to beat him round after round to get a stoppage. There are tons of examples.

[Ambling Alp II]

No, I didn't pick Cobb over Wilder. Norton looked bad against Cobb and Ledoux, and still worse against Conney. He was declining. He was shot by the time he fought Cooney. Yes, there are examples of guys way past who didn't get blown out by someone. and examples of when they did. Langford got stopped in the first round at the end of his career by someone named Brad Simmons. Not saying that Norton was as good as Tyson or Langford. However, Norton fought a lot of good competition in a nine-year period and only got stopped by... Foreman.

[Cojimar 1946]

(In the Cobb vs Wilder thread you were quoted as follows)
I actually think Cobb could win this. It could play out like the Cobb-Shavers fight. Cobb took everything Shavers could throw, and the accumulation of his own punches finally stopped Shavers. Wilder doesn't punch as hard as Shavers nor throw nearly as many punches. Cobb could probably survive.
And if this is for 15 rounds, Cobb would have an even better chance to stop Wilder or win a decision.


There are plenty of examples including many involving non greats. Pinklon Thomas was badly faded vs Tyson and Bowe but neither could blow him out in one round. Jimmy Young fought long past his best but never blown out in a round. You can find counter examples but those seem to involve guys who were far more past it than Norton. Shavers was waaaaaaaay farther past his best against Brad Simmons than Norton was vs Cooney and was much older at 43.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

They are in their prime - exact same height, weight and reach

Usyk is better at boxing
Foreman hits harder

Id go with the better boxer