Joe Frazier vs Larry Holmes

[Joson]

We're talking each guys' prime performances. The Frazier of 1971 vs the Holmes of 1978 -82.

I say Smokin' Joe pounds out a close decision in real war of a fight. It would probably unfold much like Frazier's 1971 win over Ali at MSG. Before it's over, Joe's face is a mess (one eye closed), and Larry gets some seriously banged up ribs.

[gilgamesh]

Much like the Ali-Frazier rivalry. You'd have fights that were fiercely competitive where it's probably 8 rounds to 7 either way. If someone gets dropped it'll be Holmes. As Frazier has the edge in power and toughness.

I feel like Holmes would edge it most of the time, but Frazier was certainly capable of getting a win as well.

[Ambling Alp II]

Pretty much how I see. Could have gone either way. Would have been very competitive.

[elmersalsa]

Larry Holmes should use all his boxing skills into play and don't let Smokin' Joe get inside.

If Smokin' Joe gets inside, it would be a long night for Holmes. A real long night!

[Redback Rasta]

Larry Holmes should use all his boxing skills into play and don't let Smokin' Joe get inside.

If Smokin' Joe gets inside, it would be a long night for Holmes. A real long night!

Can't criticize the strategy at all but prime Ali struggled to keep Frazier from getting inside.

[elmersalsa]

Larry Holmes should use all his boxing skills into play and don't let Smokin' Joe get inside.

If Smokin' Joe gets inside, it would be a long night for Holmes. A real long night!

Can't criticize the strategy at all but prime Ali struggled to keep Frazier from getting inside.

People say that Muhammad Ali wasn't prime then. That his prime was 1964-67. I don't know about that. To me, Ali's prime was 1964-72. But, because he lost to Smokin' Joe, the EXCUSE is that he wasn't prime Ali.

I can't dismiss the great Joe Frazier's performance of March 8, 1971 like that. Frazier fought his ass off. He kicked Ali's ass.

[Ambling Alp II]

His prime was 1964-1972? He didn't even have a fight in 1968 or 1969.

[elmersalsa]

His prime was 1964-1972? He didn't even have a fight in 1968 or 1969.

So what? He was just 29 in 1971 when Smokin' Joe whupped him. Give Smokin'Joe Frazier credit for that.

It seems when Frazier wins, Ali's supporters had a lot of excuses for him. He wasn't prime, he was in a layoff, the government took his boxing license, blah, blah, blah.

But, when it comes to Frazier against George Foreman, it was a legit ass whupping. There wasn't no excuses by the Frazier side. Frazier was also 29 when he lost to Big George.

[Ambling Alp II]

He didn't even fight in those years, so he couldn't have been in his prime. It is factually true that when Frazier won, Ali had been a on 3 and half year layoff because his boxing was taken, blah blah. Though, this just in, Ali did twice beat Frazier later on.

[elmersalsa]

He didn't even fight in those years, so he couldn't have been in his prime. It is factually true that when Frazier won, Ali had been a on 3 and half year layoff because his boxing was taken, blah blah. Though, this just in, Ali did twice beat Frazier later on.

Smokin' Joe whupped The Greatest him in his prime. He fought his ass off. The first loss of Muhammad Ali's career. He was 29. Still prime. Give the great Joe Frazier credit for that.

[Ambling Alp II]

He obviously was not still prime. First just watch the fight. His speed and reflexes were not nearly as they once were. He was dead tired by the middle of the fight. Why would this be? He had not fought for 3 and half years before being allowed to fight again. You simply can't pick up right where you left off in any sport, not just boxing. Look at Michael Jordan is basketball.

Frazier was just 30 in the rematch where Ali won. And just 31 in their third fight. Two years younger and had not taken that much punishment in his career. He did fight a great fight in their first fight (3rd one as well) and won a hard-fought victory. Few guys would have been able to do that even against version of Ali. For that, Frazier deserves a lot of credit.

[Tony1244]

Tough one. Styles make fights and I may give Joe the edge even though I may rate Holmes higher on the GOAT list. Holmes took a good shot, just not as well as Ali. Joe by late round stoppage.

[Joson]

He obviously was not still prime. First just watch the fight. His speed and reflexes were not nearly as they once were. He was dead tired by the middle of the fight. Why would this be? He had not fought for 3 and half years before being allowed to fight again. You simply can't pick up right where you left off in any sport, not just boxing. Look at Michael Jordan is basketball.

Frazier was just 30 in the rematch where Ali won. And just 31 in their third fight. Two years younger and had not taken that much punishment in his career. He did fight a great fight in their first fight (3rd one as well) and won a hard-fought victory. Few guys would have been able to do that even against version of Ali. For that, Frazier deserves a lot of credit.

Concerning Ali's 1967-70 hiatus from boxing, it's well known that he continued to work out regularly despite being banned from fighting. That's why it wasn't a big jump in conditioning and discipline for him to open training camp for Jerry Quarry, one of the leading contenders and Ali's first comeback foe.

As for Ali's prime, most fans agree it began in 1964, when he beat Liston for the title, and ended in 1975, when he repulsed Joe Frazier's challenge over 14 grueling rounds, putting on a superb display of guts and skill.

So, you'd expect that Ali's 1971 loss to Frazier is important in defining his career. It happened during Ali's prime.

As for Ali's "true" prime being the 1964 through 1967 years - Muhammad's physical, athletic peak - the argument is strong. I don't have any problem with it. The 1970-75 version of Ali was a slower, and performance-wise, inferior fighter than what he showed of himself in 1964 -67.

But even so, the 1970-75 Muhammad Ali wasn't that much less good than during his 1964-67 years.

[elmersalsa]

He obviously was not still prime. First just watch the fight. His speed and reflexes were not nearly as they once were. He was dead tired by the middle of the fight. Why would this be? He had not fought for 3 and half years before being allowed to fight again. You simply can't pick up right where you left off in any sport, not just boxing. Look at Michael Jordan is basketball.

Frazier was just 30 in the rematch where Ali won. And just 31 in their third fight. Two years younger and had not taken that much punishment in his career. He did fight a great fight in their first fight (3rd one as well) and won a hard-fought victory. Few guys would have been able to do that even against version of Ali. For that, Frazier deserves a lot of credit.

Ali was ring rust, not out of prime. As a matter of fact, I think the layoff helped him more than hurt him. He was bigger, stronger, hit harder and much wiser when he came back. Before that, he relied on his quickness and reflexes. But he wasn't as strong as when he came back.

There's excuses for the Greatest, but not for Smokin' Joe. That's DOUBLE STANDARD.

[Ambling Alp II]

He never was as good as he once was. He wasn't stronger and he didn't hit harder. He was much slower on his feet, with his hand speed, was easier to hit and had worse stamina.
Except for the 2nd foreman fight, what excuses am I supposed to take into consideration for Frazier's losses,?

If there isn't anything, it's not a Double Standard.

[elmersalsa]

He never was as good as he once was. He wasn't stronger and he didn't hit harder. He was much slower on his feet, with his hand speed, was easier to hit and had worse stamina.
Except for the 2nd foreman fight, what excuses am I supposed to take into consideration for Frazier's losses,?

If there isn't anything, it's not a Double Standard.

Yes, it is. Smokin' Joe at 29 loses to Big George. But, when The Greatest lost to Frazier, Ali was not prime. Ali took a layoff. Ali's prime ended. That's double standard.

By the time Ali came back in 1970, he was #1 or #2 as the best heavyweight in the world. Still, he beat the majority of the top heavyweights. It wasn't something like he didn't have it anymore.

Nobody took consideration that that was not the same Frazier from Fight of the Century when he lost to George Foreman in Jamaica.