Brutu wrote: ↑10 May 2010, 23:18
Curiously Jack Johnson does not mention having been knocked down at all by Stanely Ketchel in his 1911 French memoirs,
MY LIFE AND BATTLES.(The chapter doesnt look finished to me,perhaps he did not complete it in time for publication in the French sporting magazine where it was originanly published in weekly installments).
He does write however in it that Sam Langford knocked him down,something he later disputed.
Those 1911 memoirs were about to be published around the time that Stanley Ketchel was killed (October 1910)
I think maybe Jack Johnson may have re-moved that chapter altogether from his memoirs shortly before publishing,
perhaps because he may have felt bad about saying he had been "double-crossed" by Ketchel in that fight (?)
Brutu wrote: ↑12 May 2010, 02:47
Jack Johnson also stated in his 1927 autobiography that he alone decided to allow Ketchel to knock him down before going into the ring
Johnson told his sparring partner Bob Armstrong not to be alarmed if he saw him on the canvas in one of the rounds.
what's funny about that statement is wasn't Bob Armstrong a sparring partner of Stanley Ketchel
for that fight ?(There is a photograph of the two sparring with Ketchel wearing some unusual gloves
that also covered most of the forearm.
BTW Today is the 111th aniversary of the Johnson vrs Ketchel fight and
I just again re-reexamined the surviving fight footage of this bout,and in my observation the friggin punch by Ketchel still didnt even land !
What BS
Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Oct 2020, 14:58
BTW Today is the 111th aniversary of the Johnson vrs Ketchel fight and
I just again re-reexamined the surviving fight footage of this bout,and in my observation the friggin punch by Ketchel still didnt even land !
What BS
I tried to do a super zoom and slo mo of the two knockdowns. I done my best . see what you think
hey, do you think you could do a freeze frame at the exact moment of contact between Ketchel's glove and Johnson's jaw too ?
because I think some frames may have been spliced out from that film source
(probably by a boxing memorabila collector years before Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs got a copy of it,
either that or Ketchel's right hand use to really super aclerate just before impact.
Caractacus wrote: ↑19 Oct 2020, 14:43
hey, do you think you could do a freeze frame at the exact moment of contact between Ketchel's glove and Johnson's jaw too ?
because I think some frames may have been spliced out from that film source
(probably by a boxing memorabila collector years before Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs got a copy of it,
either that or Ketchel's right hand use to really super aclerate just before impact.
In the meantime, I just wish whoever "colourized" the Johnson vrs Ketchel fight did a little research before they did it
and may have stopped someone who could have done it better not do it as a result.
for example the colour of the boxers trunks in the fight
is it mentioned in any of the newspaper articles back then what color of trunks they wore ?
Stanley Ketchel in his previous fight with Philadelphia Jack O' Brien was said to have worn
"Flaming Red trunks and a smirk"
and Jack Johnson in his next fight with Jim J. Jeffries wore light-blue trunks with a red, white and blue American flag belt
and where the 'crimson red blood" that was coming from Ketchel's nose and mouth in this fight ?
Notice that in the slo-mo Jack Johnson just seems to kind of drape his left arm around Ketchel's shoulder
as the punch is coming in ?
seems like kind of an unusual tatic unless you sort of want to guide the direction of the blow.
BTW
another good idea would to be like computer graphic and ROTOSCOPE the two figures of Johnson and Ketchel
( minus all the rest of background in the film frames)
and do it from when Ketchel throws the punch and Johnson hits the canvas.
then re-play it back and forth ,back and forth to get a real idea of what happened.
Don't think Johnson was wiping ketchels teeth imbedded in his glove either...jack after falling seems to wipe at his left hand but from all accounts the ko blows were two rights..were ketchels teeth already on the floor and Johnson's left hand falls on them? Was the shot a left that supposedly took his row out? Both knockdown sequences the film is spliced which raises alot of questions
looks to me like Jack Johnson (the greatest HW defensive fighter ever)
had seen the big-right hand punch coming a mile away and just rolled with it
and then at that moment decided to fall to the canvas.
a good reason would be because he was getting a percentage of the film box office
where the film was going to be shown.
btw
Johnson purse was $ 33,000
and addition $ 20,000 proceeds from the fight film.
total $ 53,000 for this particular fight..
The knockdown and knockout from Jack Johnson that follows is possibly the one thing about the bout that isn't BS actually. At least that's how I understand it.
here is what Jack Johnson wrote about in his 1927 autobiography(page 1995-1996)
"I must carry on the fight in a way that would make the pictures snappy and worth seeing.
I decided that I would take him along for seven rounds and let him make a good showing,so that the spectators would not tire of the fight. However I did not propose to let him hurt me.
I followed this plan throughout the fight and as it neared the end, I had Ketchel well in hand and could do with him as i wished.
He sent over a punch which landed on my jaw.
it did not hurt or disconcert me. My brain had been working rapidly-so rapidly that I recognized this to be a clean cut blow with apparently much force back of it. I said to myself,"Now's your time!Now's your time! Here's your chance,"
and so I hit the canvas. all the time watching Ketchel and the referee. I was watching the latter so that he would not count me out and I was watching Ketchel so that he would the position i wish when I arose.
in order to do this,it was necessary for me to get up at a certain angle. it would cause him to move into the position
i desired. as i got to my feet I pretended to be groggy but in reality I was ready to deliver the knockout .
Ketchel rushed me with determination to put me out.
I met him with a murderous blow that put him out instead
.It was a right uppercut and the fight was over. Stanley lost several teeth.
when i returned to the dressing room,i found one of his teeth embedded in my glove".
Exhibit number B.
Larry Homes and Jack Johnson were about the same height and weight and general build.
but Shavers had about 50 more pounds behind his big over-hand right then Ketchel did.
(Shavers had said Holmes went down like he "had been de-boned")
Last edited by Caractacus on 24 Oct 2020, 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
HOW KETCHEL TRIED TO DOUBLE- CROSS ME
by Jack Johnson
that appeared in the July 1957 edition of
BOXING & WRESTLING magazine ?
Jack Johnson had died 11 years earlier of course in 1946.
I wonder if his widow Mrs Irene (Pineau)Johnson came across the unsold manuscript in her husband's estate and had sold it to the magazine
because there appeared earlier in the February 1957 edition of Boxing & Wrestling
an article written by her entitled,
JACK JOHNSON WAS A FINE GENTLEMAN.
( The two were married in August 1925)
I wonder what the actual Tale of the Tape was (it various)
In his fight with Tommy Burns December 1908
Jack Johnson was was listed at 6 ft 1.75 " tall and 196 ibs
for his exhibition fight with Victor McLaglen in March 1909 he was (14 stone 1 ib)211 lbs
Johnson fight with Jim J. Jeffries July 1910 listed at 209 lbs
For his fight with Ketchel in October 1909 one source says 190 lbs another source says 206 lbs.
Ketchel has ben reported never to have weighted more then 157 lbs.
and at 5 ft 7 and three-fourths inches tall.
Caractacus wrote: ↑24 Oct 2020, 14:09
Exhibit number B.
Larry Homes and Jack Johnson were about the same height and weight and general build.
but Shavers had about 50 more pounds behind his big over-hand right then Ketchel did.
(Shavers had said Holmes went down like he "had been de-boned")
Holmes is listed between 6'3 and 6'4. Johnson 6'0 to 6'1., though Johnosn always seemed a little taller than that.
