Johnson-Burns: The Myth

[Cap]

Recently got a chance to see what I believe was the complete 1st round of the Johnson-Burns title fight from 1908. The so-called spectacular knockdown scored by Johnson over Burns in Round 1, and recorded by Jack London and others, turns out to have been much less remarkable.

Both fighters close. Johnson uppercuts Burns with his right inside then wrassles him to the canvas. Burns did not do a back-flip and land on his head. In fact, if it happened in a ring today, it would not have been ruled a knockdown.

Johnson landed several combinations during the fight, but at no point was Burns on the verge of a knockout. Despite his reduced physical condition (having only just recovered from what may have been jaundice), Tommy stood up under Johnson's attack and proved that while Jack was a superb defensive fighter, he had very little real power.

Cap

[DonCorleone]

Still, would you want to be in Tommys shoes for the final asault in 14? Grainy, obscure whatever - Johnson looked mean and Burns looked unhappy.

[Cap]

There was no quit in Tommy Burns. He would've come out for round 15. There was a report that someone from the Johnson camp was shouting at the constable on duty to stop the fight when Johnson started his assault in the 14th.

Cap

[kick asner]

I have never seen that fight but I believe what you are saying. Sometimes in sports myths and legends grow from events just like Babe Ruth pointing to centerfield to call his home run shot although their is no evidence of this, or Joe Nameth's silly prediction when he guaranteed a super bowl victory, and although that did happen they never tell you about all of the predictions that were made of guranteed victory that did'nt happen. Another one was the famous Dempsey/Firpo fight. You had in Firpo a large man with limited skills who kept going down more from his lack of footwork and balance than from any vicious assualt. Then you had Dempsey being pushed out of the ring. But to read about it you would think it was the greatest fight ever.


So by seeing something for yourself often times you can see how events are embellished which is unfortunate because their are enough actual great moments in sports where their should be no need for the embellishment of lesser events.

[sockdolager]

I have never seen that fight but I believe what you are saying. Sometimes in sports myths and legends grow from events just like Babe Ruth pointing to centerfield to call his home run shot although their is no evidence of this, or Joe Nameth's silly prediction when he guaranteed a super bowl victory, and although that did happen they never tell you about all of the predictions that were made of guranteed victory that did'nt happen. Another one was the famous Dempsey/Firpo fight. You had in Firpo a large man with limited skills who kept going down more from his lack of footwork and balance than from any vicious assualt. Then you had Dempsey being pushed out of the ring. But to read about it you would think it was the greatest fight ever.


So by seeing something for yourself often times you can see how events are embellished which is unfortunate because their are enough actual great moments in sports where their should be no need for the embellishment of lesser events.

There is evidence in a video shot during the game. The legend is he pointed and hit the next pitch out. In reality Ruth pointed several times btwn several pitches before hitting one out.

[kick asner]

The pointing I don't deny, but their is some question as to what he was pointing at.

[Aldo Pravisani]

.........and proved that while Jack was a superb defensive fighter, he had very little real power.

Cap

I wonder what Stanley Ketchel would have to say to that?

[Cap]

Ketchel had a middleweight's chin.

[Aldo Pravisani]

Ketchel had a middleweight's chin.

That's because he was a middleweight :-). Oh, by the way, he also had middleweight teeth...minus a couple that were found embedded into Li'l Arthur's right glove.

But seriously though, yes, it's well known that Johnson was a superb defensive boxer, but it also proves that if he had to, he could punch.

[Cap]

Ketchel was used to being slugged by guys draggin' 160 pounds. Johnson outweighed him by at least 30, maybe even 40 pounds. Burns, on the other hand, had been in with heavyweights and could take a heavyweight's punch. If Ketchel had been in with Burns, Tommy would've put him to sleep in a hurry.

Cap

[HomicideHenry]

I won't even say that Ketchell was a push-over because he was a Middleweight going up against the HW champion. I have watched several of Johnson's fights and I don't believe in the rumor of a 'pre-arranged' draw between the two.

Ketchell's face on his right side was entirely a black and blue bruise, and as far as Burns, he was game and tough, but he it was a one-sided affair and if the police hadn't of stopped it, Johnson would have, no question.

Ketchell was a tough man, taking possibly THE best HW ever' best punches round after round and even managed to knock Johnson down before he himself was knocked out cold.

I like Tommy Burns but he was even smaller than Ketchell at 5'7". Burns had unusually long arms for a man that short and was powerfully built facing the best MW, LHW and HW of the time, but I think in his bout with Johnson it was both a size and skill matter---Burns was too small and not as skilled as Johnson, better is better.

Ketchell's problem was he was so fornicating sloppy and wild, leaving him open for lots of shots. He could hit really hard, as seen that he could drop Johnson and he is still statistically the hardest hitting MW in history, but don't say it was because he was a MW with a MW chin.

Look at those hard shots he took, how badly bruised his face was...KETCHELL COULD TAKE A PUNCH!

[Aldo Pravisani]

That's another urban legend. Watch the footage again. The hand that Johnson's supposedly wiping clean of Ketchel's teeth wasn't the one he scored the knockout with.

I'd love to, but I haven't got it But I believe you