Vitali Klischko: the world's # 1 in heavyweight 2004/05

[Ambling Alp]

I guess I don't see how people can vote Klitscho as #1 of course" for 2004-2005, when he didn't even fight at all in 2005!

I would argue that he was # 1 in 2004, but it isn't a slamdunk; Klitscho won both of his fights but they were against Sanders and Williams. That doesn't make him light years ahead of everyone else.

I would say he was #1 (though not by a lot) in 2004, but you can't say he was the best in 2005 since he was already done fighting by then.

[Tantum]

I picked option #2 based on the fact that while he may have been knocking out all his competition... His competition was no better than the other champ's.

There ought to be an option 6, "No one was"

[barry]

>>>There ought to be an option 6, "No one was"<<<

Although that is the correct answer, no one could have made excuses that Vitali really won the bouts with Byrd and Lewis!

[Tantum]

True...

But sometimes a fighter's stock rises after a loss...

Whether it's because the loss is controversial... Or because the fighter did much better than expected.

Not many people expected Vitali to have a chance in hell against Lennox, and he fought on slightly better than even terms with him, until his cut got f'ucking horrible.


Meldrick Taylor didn't beat Chavez, but I bet people were clamoring about him to the extreme... Not realizing he had suffered some serious damage in that fight, and would never be the same again.

Or how about Tarver after the first Roy Jones fight?

Foreman after the Holyfield fight?

Golota after the Riddick Bowe fights?

etc...

But unlike the men above, Vitali never got shut out/looked terrible after his stock rising loss.

[Tantum]

You fail to see the point, which was quite easy to get, and on the money.

Klitschko is not the only person who gets props for a loss...

Klitschko went on to dominate his competition after that loss... Regardless if they were top 20 guys instead of top 5 guys, the point is simple... He went out looking good(both in the Lewis fight, and the end of his career). People will remember that.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Not many people expected Vitali to have a chance in hell against Lennox, and he fought on slightly better than even terms with him, until his cut got f'ucking horrible.

but lennox was past his prime, way out of shape, and rusty

[Ambling Alp]

You fail to see the point, which was quite easy to get, and on the money.

Klitschko is not the only person who gets props for a loss...

Klitschko went on to dominate his competition after that loss... Regardless if they were top 20 guys instead of top 5 guys, the point is simple... He went out looking good(both in the Lewis fight, and the end of his career). People will remember that.

Time will tell, but I don't think he will be remembered very much at all. His most memorable fights were losses. Twenty years form now people aren't going to be saying he beat the great Corey Sanders or the great Danny Williams.

[The Great John L]

You fail to see the point, which was quite easy to get, and on the money.

Klitschko is not the only person who gets props for a loss...

Klitschko went on to dominate his competition after that loss... Regardless if they were top 20 guys instead of top 5 guys, the point is simple... He went out looking good(both in the Lewis fight, and the end of his career). People will remember that.

Time will tell, but I don't think he will be remembered very much at all. His most memorable fights were losses. Twenty years form now people aren't going to be saying he beat the great Corey Sanders or the great Danny Williams.

Exactly the point. Top fighters get remembered for great losing efforts when they are clearly top fighters. For example, Jerry Quarry’s loss in the first Frazier fight was a great effort that added to his career accomplishments because he HAD other accomplishments. Unfortunately, Vitali really had no other accomplishments besides the 2 competitive loses against his 2 best opponents.

[Ezzard]

You fail to see the point, which was quite easy to get, and on the money.

Klitschko is not the only person who gets props for a loss...

Klitschko went on to dominate his competition after that loss... Regardless if they were top 20 guys instead of top 5 guys, the point is simple... He went out looking good(both in the Lewis fight, and the end of his career). People will remember that.

Time will tell, but I don't think he will be remembered very much at all. His most memorable fights were losses. Twenty years form now people aren't going to be saying he beat the great Corey Sanders or the great Danny Williams.

Watch out, Alp. Some already laud Tyson's win over Holmes as proof that he was a greater fighter.

[pundit]

So far Klitschko is 17-5 (14 KOs) -- not bad at all.... 8)

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

You fail to see the point, which was quite easy to get, and on the money.

Klitschko is not the only person who gets props for a loss...

Klitschko went on to dominate his competition after that loss... Regardless if they were top 20 guys instead of top 5 guys, the point is simple... He went out looking good(both in the Lewis fight, and the end of his career). People will remember that.

Time will tell, but I don't think he will be remembered very much at all. His most memorable fights were losses. Twenty years form now people aren't going to be saying he beat the great Corey Sanders or the great Danny Williams.

Watch out, Alp. Some already laud Tyson's win over Holmes as proof that he was a greater fighter.

no but it did show tyson at his peak, was one of the greatest punchers of all time. holmes had a granite chin and incredible surviving skills even at 38, and tyson knocked him out cold.

[The Great John L]

You fail to see the point, which was quite easy to get, and on the money.

Klitschko is not the only person who gets props for a loss...

Klitschko went on to dominate his competition after that loss... Regardless if they were top 20 guys instead of top 5 guys, the point is simple... He went out looking good(both in the Lewis fight, and the end of his career). People will remember that.

Time will tell, but I don't think he will be remembered very much at all. His most memorable fights were losses. Twenty years form now people aren't going to be saying he beat the great Corey Sanders or the great Danny Williams.

Watch out, Alp. Some already laud Tyson's win over Holmes as proof that he was a greater fighter.

OK, so Klit's wins over Williams, Els err, I mean Sanders and Johnson are proof that he was a better fighter than them. I'll go along with that, although Els was WAY past his prime and out of shape when VK beat him.

[silkov]

>>>>I'm not interest in getting into a slugfest. It was nice here in recent weeks, now it seems to be heating up again because some folks can't distinguish factual and personal, but maybe the two of us shouldn't get involved<<<

All I am doing is presenting some actual facts of what really happened in the bout and also some opinion on certain things...if you can't respond in an intelligent way without starting name calling then maybe you should move on, but I'm not going to stop posting, or not post simply because someone doesn't want me to. And if that does not work for you then perhaps you should just keep quiet about this issue.

What I see in your debate is that you want to post things about the bout that you like to believe are correct, but in all honesty they are mostly fictional, “fairy-tale-like” accounts of why Vitali quit, or statements such as “Vitali dominated the fight as long as it lasted” That is fiction, whereas fact states that he dominated the early rounds, but Byrd took over in the second half of the fight.

Several Klitschko fanatics want to look at the arm injury as a freak accident whereas I look at in that the injury occurred because of how Bryd boxed and how he handled himself in the ring…it was Byrd’s boxing that caused the injury.

And then there are several who do not want to give Byrd the proper credit and would choose instead to make-up fantasy-like excuses about why Vitali quit while I give Byrd all credit for winning the bout...just the exact same way that I give Wladimir credit for beating Byrd….there is no difference...fact is fact, but fiction is not no matter how someone might try to spin it!

Chris Byrd stopped Vitali Klitschko fair, square and very legitimately; there was no freak-accident that caused the injury, the injury was because of Chris Byrd! Byrd just did what he does and Vitali injured his arm trying to land...not to mention all the shots that Byrd landed on Vitali's arms and shoulders, which no doubt played a big part as well. Some like to try to claim that Byrd was lucky that Vitali injured himself, but the only thing lucky about that fight is that Vitali was lucky that he did not get knocked out in those final two rounds before he quit!

>>>he dominated Byrd as long as the fight went even though he had only one arm, and as a consequence it seems rather misguided to me to rank Byrd above Vitali. Sure, the official score is "Byrd TKO Klitschko", but boxing fans should be able to go beyond the official score<<<

He most certainly did not! The last three, or four rounds Byrd was clubbing Vitali pretty much at will, pushing the big guy back and Byrd did rock Vitali on several occasions during the second half of the fight.

Following the end of the 7th, 8th and 9th rounds Vitali was looking very much the worse for wear and it was pretty obvious from his physical motions and his movement manners when going to his corner at the end of the final three, or four rounds that Vitali certainly did not want to be in that fight any more and he was certainly very much on the verge of being a knock out victim...so lucking for a way out…he quit. Why did he quit...because of Chris Byrd...plain and simple!!!

Surely its a fact that Vitali lost because of his injury (torn rotator cuff) rather than because of Byrd... to say otherwise is just bending the facts... had Vitali not injured his shoulder he would have beaten Byrd quite comfortably...

[dempseyfire]

Byrd's resume-Tua, McCline, Golota, Holyfield (after he'd beaten Rahman and Ruiz)

Vitali's resume-Donald, Johnson, Sanders, Williams


Just b/c Byrd was struggling *but winning vs superior opposition and Klitschko was blowing out his overweight, limited foes Klitschko seemed like the clearer pic, along with the fact he'd had a close fight with Lennox.

Re: Vitali-Byrd, those who claim "Vitali was kicking Byrd's ass" must have not seen the fight or are very prejudiced viewers. I had Vitali ahead at the time of the stoppage but it was only by a few points and far from insumountable. Byrd had basically stayed on even terms with Klitschko throughout the whole fight . . .very different than Byrd's fights with his brother.

But Byrd clearly had the better resume, and with a win over Vitali, should have been ranked ahead of Klitschko.

[silkov]

The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....

[silkov]

Surely its a fact that Vitali lost because of his injury (torn rotator cuff) rather than because of Byrd... to say otherwise is just bending the facts... had Vitali not injured his shoulder he would have beaten Byrd quite comfortably...

No, that's not a fact. Vitali injured his shoudler because he was missing Byrd all night long. At least two other Byrd opponents suffered the exact same injury.

How come Vitali was outboxing Byrd with one arm till the pain got too much?... Byrd ran like Ben Johnson, you make him sound like Joe Frazier!....

[barry]

>>>No, that's not a fact. Vitali injured his shoudler because he was missing Byrd all night long. At least two other Byrd opponents suffered the exact same injury.<<<

Thats the logical truth that Vitali-Lovers cannot, or will not grasp...they would rather stick to that little fantasyland where Vitali was really undefeated instead of suffering the two losses, one very humiliating loss. Byrd was the better heavyweight and he will be remembered as the better heavyweight no matter how many Quitschko-Lovers try to come to his aid...in the end...the FACT of the matter is this...Cris Byrd TKO'd Vitali Klitschko.

As I have stated many times before...I had the exact same injury that Vitali had, when I was just a teenager and I continued to pitch for two more seasons and I know what the pain is like...it's bad, but if a teenager can take it, surely one of the supposed future heavyweight champions could have, but then again I have always had heart and guts and have never quit...too bad for all the nuthuggers Vitali was not cut from the same kind of mold!



>>>The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....<<<

Hey...ask anyone that has any true sense about boxing and they will respond in the same way about Vitali...he didn't do shit in the ring except quit when the going got rough. And for the record I don't here anyone talking shit about Vitali's nationality...it's all about what he did in the ring, or excuse me, what he didn't do in the ring that we are responding to and if you cannot handle it then maybe you should stay away from Vitali-themed threads, but since you feel the need to be racist yourself and start with the nationalities then I feel the need to defend!

As to us crying if it was an American fighter...why should we...we have always had the best fighters in the world for the last 100 years...that is why American boxing is what every fighter around the world aspires for, that is if they want to be considered the best...there are always going to be fighters like Joe Calzaghe who just wants to fight in his backyard against the weakest opposition that he can actually get santcioned! As soon as boxing became a part of the American landscape we simply took over the sport, who did we take it from...well I think we know without having to say it and it will take 100 years for some other country to equal what American boxing has done and like the info about Quitshcko...that is FACT.

P.S. Who's doing all the crying here in this thread?

[The Great John L]

The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....

That's a rather insulting and narrow minded comment. Lewis wasn't an American, yet I rank him as an all time great because he had a great career. Please explain to us all what world class fighters Vitali beat to warrant being considered anything better than a very good HW?

[silkov]

>>>No, that's not a fact. Vitali injured his shoudler because he was missing Byrd all night long. At least two other Byrd opponents suffered the exact same injury.<<<

Thats the logical truth that Vitali-Lovers cannot, or will not grasp...they would rather stick to that little fantasyland where Vitali was really undefeated instead of suffering the two losses, one very humiliating loss. Byrd was the better heavyweight and he will be remembered as the better heavyweight no matter how many Quitschko-Lovers try to come to his aid...in the end...the FACT of the matter is this...Cris Byrd TKO'd Vitali Klitschko.

As I have stated many times before...I had the exact same injury that Vitali had, when I was just a teenager and I continued to pitch for two more seasons and I know what the pain is like...it's bad, but if a teenager can take it, surely one of the supposed future heavyweight champions could have, but then again I have always had heart and guts and have never quit...too bad for all the nuthuggers Vitali was not cut from the same kind of mold!



>>>The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....<<<

Hey...ask anyone that has any true sense about boxing and they will respond in the same way about Vitali...he didn't do shit in the ring except quit when the going got rough. And for the record I don't here anyone talking shit about Vitali's nationality...it's all about what he did in the ring, or excuse me, what he didn't do in the ring that we are responding to and if you cannot handle it then maybe you should stay away from Vitali-themed threads, but since you feel the need to be racist yourself and start with the nationalities then I feel the need to defend!

As to us crying if it was an American fighter...why should we...we have always had the best fighters in the world for the last 100 years...that is why American boxing is what every fighter around the world aspires for, that is if they want to be considered the best...there are always going to be fighters like Joe Calzaghe who just wants to fight in his backyard against the weakest opposition that he can actually get santcioned! As soon as boxing became a part of the American landscape we simply took over the sport, who did we take it from...well I think we know without having to say it and it will take 100 years for some other country to equal what American boxing has done and like the info about Quitshcko...that is FACT.

P.S. Who's doing all the crying here in this thread?

Well I'm not crying mate, nor am I writing essay length posts either to simple points of opinion. I've never said that Vitali was an all time great or anything like that but I dont think he deserves the insults and petty hatred that he gets from a few posters here and I'm entitled to say this if I want... you may not like what I said about the racist issue but I dont care... I dont see you critcising any of your hapless American heavies, I dont see any of you calling Tyson a eareating quitter... but ofcourse you dont and because I point this out then I'm a nutthugger and 'crying' ...seems to me like your crying about the greatness of 'American boxing' which is all rather sad as I have never attacked American boxing at all... maybe though you should look at the fact that many of your American heros were sons of immigrants from various parts of Europe...

[silkov]

The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....

That's a rather insulting and narrow minded comment. Lewis wasn't an American, yet I rank him as an all time great because he had a great career. Please explain to us all what world class fighters Vitali beat to warrant being considered anything better than a very good HW?

Lewis was the guy you all hated till Vitali came along, and then all of a sudden he became an 'all time great'... which I actually think is rather laughable... Lewis was good but hardly great!.
I'm talking about the people that keep calling Vitali a quitter etc yet at the same time still wont hear a bad word said against Tyson... the bad feeling against Vitali from some here is totally out of all proportion and reason and I think his nationality has a lot to do with it. Some won't like me saying this but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking it... I'm not saying all Americans are racist or anything like that... actually looking at the poll you Vitali haters are actually in the minority!... 8) ...have a nice day...

[Ezzard]

The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....

That's a rather insulting and narrow minded comment. Lewis wasn't an American, yet I rank him as an all time great because he had a great career. Please explain to us all what world class fighters Vitali beat to warrant being considered anything better than a very good HW?

I agree that he can't be considered anything more than a good HW. BUT nobody here seems to claiming anything else! There are a lot of poor HWs, a lot of overrated HWs and a lot of HWs who have sullied the sport either by coming in like a blob of blubber or by their behaviour outside of the ring. Vitali falls into none of these camps. So why is he the subject of so many negative threads??? Either it is nothing more than the fact that Vit and Klit both rhyme with quit or there is another reason.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything but the longer this goes on the more interested I am in understanding why VK is being singled out.

[silkov]

The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....

That's a rather insulting and narrow minded comment. Lewis wasn't an American, yet I rank him as an all time great because he had a great career. Please explain to us all what world class fighters Vitali beat to warrant being considered anything better than a very good HW?

I agree that he can't be considered anything more than a good HW. BUT nobody here seems to claiming anything else! There are a lot of poor HWs, a lot of overrated HWs and a lot of HWs who have sullied the sport either by coming in like a blob of blubber or by their behaviour outside of the ring. Vitali falls into none of these camps. So why is he the subject of so many negative threads??? Either it is nothing more than the fact that Vit and Klit both rhyme with quit or there is another reason.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything but the longer this goes on the more interested I am in understanding why VK is being singled out.

Exactly, I've never claimed that Vitali was much more than the best of a bad bunch, but it seems some on here are clinging to the Byrd fight as evidence that Vitali was this and that etc... the botton line is that he lost the fight because of an injury, against Lewis he was stopped against his wishes because of a horrible cut (or rather cuts) how does this make him a quitter?!!. Vitali is definately being singled out here and I have my thoughts on why this is and to be honest it isnt pretty...

[Ezzard]

That's a rather insulting and narrow minded comment. Lewis wasn't an American, yet I rank him as an all time great because he had a great career. Please explain to us all what world class fighters Vitali beat to warrant being considered anything better than a very good HW?

I agree that he can't be considered anything more than a good HW. BUT nobody here seems to claiming anything else! There are a lot of poor HWs, a lot of overrated HWs and a lot of HWs who have sullied the sport either by coming in like a blob of blubber or by their behaviour outside of the ring. Vitali falls into none of these camps. So why is he the subject of so many negative threads??? Either it is nothing more than the fact that Vit and Klit both rhyme with quit or there is another reason.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything but the longer this goes on the more interested I am in understanding why VK is being singled out.

Exactly, I've never claimed that Vitali was much more than the best of a bad bunch, but it seems some on here are clinging to the Byrd fight as evidence that Vitali was this and that etc... the botton line is that he lost the fight because of an injury, against Lewis he was stopped against his wishes because of a horrible cut (or rather cuts) how does this make him a quitter?!!. Vitali is definately being singled out here and I have my thoughts on why this is and to be honest it isnt pretty...

I am disappointed with VK. He was a clever, respectable guy outside the ring. The fact that he is from The Ukraine looked good too as it gave boxing a greater profile in other countries. He had a solid enough chin and his dimensions made him a tough opponent. The division was/is scarce on talent and he looked good enough to rule. He wasn't Joe Louis in the ring and he didn't have the charisma of Ali but he looked like a guy who could/would promote the sport in a positive way.

His lack of decent opposition obviously hurts him and his early retirement have made a bad division worse.

[silkov]

I agree that he can't be considered anything more than a good HW. BUT nobody here seems to claiming anything else! There are a lot of poor HWs, a lot of overrated HWs and a lot of HWs who have sullied the sport either by coming in like a blob of blubber or by their behaviour outside of the ring. Vitali falls into none of these camps. So why is he the subject of so many negative threads??? Either it is nothing more than the fact that Vit and Klit both rhyme with quit or there is another reason.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything but the longer this goes on the more interested I am in understanding why VK is being singled out.

Exactly, I've never claimed that Vitali was much more than the best of a bad bunch, but it seems some on here are clinging to the Byrd fight as evidence that Vitali was this and that etc... the botton line is that he lost the fight because of an injury, against Lewis he was stopped against his wishes because of a horrible cut (or rather cuts) how does this make him a quitter?!!. Vitali is definately being singled out here and I have my thoughts on why this is and to be honest it isnt pretty...

I am disappointed with VK. He was a clever, respectable guy outside the ring. The fact that he is from The Ukraine looked good too as it gave boxing a greater profile in other countries. He had a solid enough chin and his dimensions made him a tough opponent. The division was/is scarce on talent and he looked good enough to rule. He wasn't Joe Louis in the ring and he didn't have the charisma of Ali but he looked like a guy who could/would promote the sport in a positive way.

His lack of decent opposition obviously hurts him and his early retirement have made a bad division worse.

I agree with what you're saying, but I still think that after Lewis retired Vitali was the number one till he retired... most people in boxing actually agree with this assessment... for Vitali to be insulted like he has been by a minority on here is stupid... especially as these same people would never call Tyson a quitter or say anything against several other fighters I could name...
I actually think the division is on its way back up slowly, but the next outstanding champion will be from Eastern Europe...

[The Great John L]

Exactly, I've never claimed that Vitali was much more than the best of a bad bunch...

This very statement is the reason why people single out VK for derision. Please explain why he was “the best of a bad bunch”. He lost against the 2 best HWs he fought, and really produced no wins over any significant HWs during his entire career, yet the Klit supporters will jump all over anyone who points out these facts and challenges the premise that he was ever the best HW in the world. He never proved he was the best, and in fact lost both fights that could have given him any reasonable claim of being the best. Why is this hard to understand?

The attacks aimed at VK only start when people make the absurd claim that he was “clearly the best” HW in the world at any time in his career. If his supporters would lower their passionate praise for VK, then perhaps the attacks would also not be quite so passionate.