Well said John L.
I started to follow with the same kind of insulting nationalistic racist post as silkov, but I’ve better things to do…plus your post points out the truths of the issue in a very simple manner, so there is little I need to say except that perhaps silkov should think before stating any more ignorant insults toward America, or any other country just because he disagrees about a certain fighter.
The only thing I want to comment on is the statement about how we are not talking trash about Tyson in this thread, which is a very silly comment to make and for starters Tyson has nothing to do with a thread about Vitali.
Unless you are very new to this forum, which silkov certainly is not, everyone else knows that there has been MANY, MANY, MANY threads that talk nothing but pure shit about Tyson downing the man in every way possible, yet I don't ever recall silkov coming to Tyson aid the way he has with the Quitschko's.
There are certainly a hell of a lot worse shit-talk about Tyson than anything that is said about Vitali, but one of two differences that I would like to point out about it is this…people talking shit about Tyson and talking down on him, insulting his accomplishments in the ring, well that debate holds very little water because Mike Tyson, though he was a nut, was the world heavyweight champion, Vitali never was…Tyson was an all-time top 10, or top 20 heavyweight, Vitali never was and lastly Tyson turned quitter when he was 15+ years past his best and WAY, WAY, WAY past his prime whereas Vitali turned quitter in his prime, while at his peak...which he probably would have been a two-time quitter had the bout with Lewis not been stopped when it was because it is pretty obvious to all who want, or are willing to admit it, that Vitali was starting to look for a way out of the fight and his mannerisms and moves at the end of the final two rounds showed a man that no longer wanted to be in that ring that night and those mannerisms were exactly the same as it was during the final two rounds before he did quit against Byrd, now that is not FACT, but it’s a pretty solid observation that he was beginning to look for a way out.
Lastly, I would just like to say to silkov…maybe you should take heed to your own suggestions and think before you post…you usually do! Hell, if you only moderately like Klitschko then I would hate to see how you would respond to someone who pointed out the many negatives of the career of a Joe Calzaghe, or Ricky Hatton, which there are many in the case of Calzaghe!
As to American fighters...I never give the issue any thought until someone throws an insult then I will be very nationalistic, but as it pertains to boxers...I could care less where they are from, or what they look like as long as they can fight and fight well I will root for them, which I would have thought you were the same, but your first post would suggest otherwise…or maybe it’s just that you like everyone but Americans!
Oh yeah, one last thing...where are all of these horrific insults about Vitali of which you speak...and what are they? Maybe if you could clear up what insults it is that you are speaking of then someone may take it upon themselves to voice they're debate in a more proper way and manner...so what are the insults that bother you...please be specific if you can!
Vitali Klischko: the world's # 1 in heavyweight 2004/05
I agree that he didn't prove he was the best. It's an opinion some hold and others challenge. That's what this forum is for.The Great John L wrote:This very statement is the reason why people single out VK for derision. Please explain why he was “the best of a bad bunch”. He lost against the 2 best HWs he fought, and really produced no wins over any significant HWs during his entire career, yet the Klit supporters will jump all over anyone who points out these facts and challenges the premise that he was ever the best HW in the world. He never proved he was the best, and in fact lost both fights that could have given him any reasonable claim of being the best. Why is this hard to understand?silkov wrote:Exactly, I've never claimed that Vitali was much more than the best of a bad bunch...
The attacks aimed at VK only start when people make the absurd claim that he was “clearly the best” HW in the world at any time in his career. If his supporters would lower their passionate praise for VK, then perhaps the attacks would also not be quite so passionate.
I don't think that holding the opinion that he was the best at the time is that far out there. It's open to debate though, but still is not by any means an outlandish claim. He lost to Byrd. The record forvever shows 'L' but, as Barry has said before, there is a story behind every result. Just as Barry might research a fight and find that there was more behind the result than W/L suggest, so Byrd-Klitschko is surely still open for discussion. Byrd deserves credit for the win but if I had to bet on a rematch I'd go with VK.
All I can say in response is that I'm not a VK fan but find myself writing on this thread because it seems so lop-sided. He wasn't great but he wasn't that bad.
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DonCorleone
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 31 Aug 2006, 05:14
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kick asner
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 692
- Joined: 02 Oct 2005, 00:01
Racism is perhaps the wrong term here as race refers to skin color rather than someones national origin. I think you may be a bit sensitive on this one Silkov. I am trying to keep an open mind here but from what I have read on this and other threads I guess I am not seeing the same thing as you. Also I can't say for sure who is what nationality on this board or what the individuals skin color is. A guy might say he is from Ohio but how do you know he is not a recent immigrent from some other country.silkov wrote:The negative feelings here against Vitali are just amazing, I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc, ....its nothing less than pure racism to be frank and its pathetic!....
Boxing is such a diverse sport by simply being a fan of it would tell me that the person was not a racist or nationalist simply because their are so many different races and nationalities that boxing represents. Their have been alot of threads on this board that have paid homage and were complimentary to black fighters, hispanic fighters, and other races and nationalities. Most people who post here think it was a travesty that the black fighter was slighted in the early nineteen hundreds.
I don't know if I would want to go down the road of where you could attribute someones critism of a fighter to being predjudice. That just is not enough to go by.
Well tell me this then, would these guys who are pilloring Klitchenko be flying into rages about him if he was American?... its a straight question!.... I dont see these guys running down the hugely overhyped Mesi... etc ....these are the sort of guys who were predicting Tyson taking back the title right up to the Mcbride loss or who are now looking for Shannon Briggs to rule the world!!!... SHANNON BRIGGS!! FOR CHRISTSAKES!!! AARRGGHHHH!!!!... 
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
Wow, you really are hostile. I don’t think ANYONE has made any statements about Mesi being the BEST HW in the world, so I’m unclear what point you are attempting to make. And I’m an American and never thought Tyson had a chance against Lewis. And what does Shannon Briggs have to do with anything!!??silkov wrote:Well tell me this then, would these guys who are pilloring Klitchenko be flying into rages about him if he was American?... its a straight question!.... I dont see these guys running down the hugely overhyped Mesi... etc ....these are the sort of guys who were predicting Tyson taking back the title right up to the Mcbride loss or who are now looking for Shannon Briggs to rule the world!!!... SHANNON BRIGGS!! FOR CHRISTSAKES!!! AARRGGHHHH!!!!...
You’re just adding fuel to the fire with your passionate, ill-reasoned tirades on this topic. Not only do I and probably most Americans consider Lewis an ATG HW, I also have no animosity towards The White Wolf or any other foreign HW who isn’t over-hyped and built up by the media. Fighters who earn greatness are generally acknowledged by everyone, but please explain again where Klit proved that he was ever “clearly the best”. Any real boxing fan doesn’t recognize a fighter as “clearly the best” until they have proven it by beating at least a few of the top fighters in their division, and Vitali doesn’t deserve to be in that class of fighter. He was a good HW, but he lost against the 2 guys he needed to beat to be considered “clearly the best”. I don’t think the posters that are saying Vitali wasn’t the best would consider any other HW as “clearly the best” either, because no one since Lewis has earned that distinction.
Take a deep breath and go back to that Tyson thread you started. It’s a little more light hearted.
Re: re
Read what I wrote Barry, I never insulted anyone... I'm simply questioning the need of certain people to brand Klitchenko a talentless quitter... is that so outrageous?. I think branding a fighter a quitter is one of the worst insults and in Vitalis case it is totally unwarrented. I also question whether this may in part be due to the fact that Klitchenko is Eastern Europeon... this may be a sensitive area but we're all adults here, I'm not calling anyone racist as such... perhaps it is a subliminal Nationalism that is behind it... but I am certain imo that it Vitali was American he would have been appreciated much more and insulted much less. I dont really think this statement is so outrageous... the fact that it seems to provoke such strong reactions in some of you makes me think that I've hit a certain sore point...barry wrote:Well said John L.
I started to follow with the same kind of insulting nationalistic racist post as silkov, but I’ve better things to do…plus your post points out the truths of the issue in a very simple manner, so there is little I need to say except that perhaps silkov should think before stating any more ignorant insults toward America, or any other country just because he disagrees about a certain fighter.
The only thing I want to comment on is the statement about how we are not talking trash about Tyson in this thread, which is a very silly comment to make and for starters Tyson has nothing to do with a thread about Vitali.
Unless you are very new to this forum, which silkov certainly is not, everyone else knows that there has been MANY, MANY, MANY threads that talk nothing but pure shit about Tyson downing the man in every way possible, yet I don't ever recall silkov coming to Tyson aid the way he has with the Quitschko's.
There are certainly a hell of a lot worse shit-talk about Tyson than anything that is said about Vitali, but one of two differences that I would like to point out about it is this…people talking shit about Tyson and talking down on him, insulting his accomplishments in the ring, well that debate holds very little water because Mike Tyson, though he was a nut, was the world heavyweight champion, Vitali never was…Tyson was an all-time top 10, or top 20 heavyweight, Vitali never was and lastly Tyson turned quitter when he was 15+ years past his best and WAY, WAY, WAY past his prime whereas Vitali turned quitter in his prime, while at his peak...which he probably would have been a two-time quitter had the bout with Lewis not been stopped when it was because it is pretty obvious to all who want, or are willing to admit it, that Vitali was starting to look for a way out of the fight and his mannerisms and moves at the end of the final two rounds showed a man that no longer wanted to be in that ring that night and those mannerisms were exactly the same as it was during the final two rounds before he did quit against Byrd, now that is not FACT, but it’s a pretty solid observation that he was beginning to look for a way out.
Lastly, I would just like to say to silkov…maybe you should take heed to your own suggestions and think before you post…you usually do! Hell, if you only moderately like Klitschko then I would hate to see how you would respond to someone who pointed out the many negatives of the career of a Joe Calzaghe, or Ricky Hatton, which there are many in the case of Calzaghe!
As to American fighters...I never give the issue any thought until someone throws an insult then I will be very nationalistic, but as it pertains to boxers...I could care less where they are from, or what they look like as long as they can fight and fight well I will root for them, which I would have thought you were the same, but your first post would suggest otherwise…or maybe it’s just that you like everyone but Americans!
Oh yeah, one last thing...where are all of these horrific insults about Vitali of which you speak...and what are they? Maybe if you could clear up what insults it is that you are speaking of then someone may take it upon themselves to voice they're debate in a more proper way and manner...so what are the insults that bother you...please be specific if you can!
Regarding Tyson, after the various misdemeanours and acts of savagery which Tyson has committed in the ring (not to mention his behaviour out of it) I'm hardly surprised that support for him has wavered in some people... the fact that you see fit to defend him illustrates my earlier points rather well Barry and supports them imo...
See what I mean, I mention Mesi as being overrated and I'm called hostile!... jeeze!... look Mesi cant fight a damn and throws a punch like an old washer woman!... is that any better?... my point is some of you guys seem to think its fine to call Vitali Klitchenko a quitter etc yet if I say someone like Mesi is 'overrated' I'm being hostile!!!!???... glass houses and stones John L...!....The Great John L wrote:Wow, you really are hostile. I don’t think ANYONE has made any statements about Mesi being the BEST HW in the world, so I’m unclear what point you are attempting to make. And I’m an American and never thought Tyson had a chance against Lewis. And what does Shannon Briggs have to do with anything!!??silkov wrote:Well tell me this then, would these guys who are pilloring Klitchenko be flying into rages about him if he was American?... its a straight question!.... I dont see these guys running down the hugely overhyped Mesi... etc ....these are the sort of guys who were predicting Tyson taking back the title right up to the Mcbride loss or who are now looking for Shannon Briggs to rule the world!!!... SHANNON BRIGGS!! FOR CHRISTSAKES!!! AARRGGHHHH!!!!...
You’re just adding fuel to the fire with your passionate, ill-reasoned tirades on this topic. Not only do I and probably most Americans consider Lewis an ATG HW, I also have no animosity towards The White Wolf or any other foreign HW who isn’t over-hyped and built up by the media. Fighters who earn greatness are generally acknowledged by everyone, but please explain again where Klit proved that he was ever “clearly the best”. Any real boxing fan doesn’t recognize a fighter as “clearly the best” until they have proven it by beating at least a few of the top fighters in their division, and Vitali doesn’t deserve to be in that class of fighter. He was a good HW, but he lost against the 2 guys he needed to beat to be considered “clearly the best”. I don’t think the posters that are saying Vitali wasn’t the best would consider any other HW as “clearly the best” either, because no one since Lewis has earned that distinction.
Take a deep breath and go back to that Tyson thread you started. It’s a little more light hearted.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
The hostility comment was directed at your “AARRGGHHHH!!!!” and had nothing to do with your mentioning Mesi, Briggs or anyone else.silkov wrote:See what I mean, I mention Mesi as being overrated and I'm called hostile!... jeeze!... look Mesi cant fight a damn and throws a punch like an old washer woman!... is that any better?... my point is some of you guys seem to think its fine to call Vitali Klitchenko a quitter etc yet if I say someone like Mesi is 'overrated' I'm being hostile!!!!???... glass houses and stones John L...!....The Great John L wrote:Wow, you really are hostile. I don’t think ANYONE has made any statements about Mesi being the BEST HW in the world, so I’m unclear what point you are attempting to make. And I’m an American and never thought Tyson had a chance against Lewis. And what does Shannon Briggs have to do with anything!!??silkov wrote:Well tell me this then, would these guys who are pilloring Klitchenko be flying into rages about him if he was American?... its a straight question!.... I dont see these guys running down the hugely overhyped Mesi... etc ....these are the sort of guys who were predicting Tyson taking back the title right up to the Mcbride loss or who are now looking for Shannon Briggs to rule the world!!!... SHANNON BRIGGS!! FOR CHRISTSAKES!!! AARRGGHHHH!!!!...
You’re just adding fuel to the fire with your passionate, ill-reasoned tirades on this topic. Not only do I and probably most Americans consider Lewis an ATG HW, I also have no animosity towards The White Wolf or any other foreign HW who isn’t over-hyped and built up by the media. Fighters who earn greatness are generally acknowledged by everyone, but please explain again where Klit proved that he was ever “clearly the best”. Any real boxing fan doesn’t recognize a fighter as “clearly the best” until they have proven it by beating at least a few of the top fighters in their division, and Vitali doesn’t deserve to be in that class of fighter. He was a good HW, but he lost against the 2 guys he needed to beat to be considered “clearly the best”. I don’t think the posters that are saying Vitali wasn’t the best would consider any other HW as “clearly the best” either, because no one since Lewis has earned that distinction.
Take a deep breath and go back to that Tyson thread you started. It’s a little more light hearted.
Please take a deep breath. I’ll try asking a few of these questions again.
What does Mesi have to do with anything? And I’ll add this question – where did anyone say he was the best HW in the world? I don’t think he’s even a footnote in the division.
Please explain again where Klit proved that he was ever “clearly the best”. You seem to be avoiding this question.
And what does Shannon Briggs have to do with anything!!??
You seem to keep changing the topic to avoid addressing the ultimate question of why you have such a passionate opinion about Vitali’s greatness. Some of us are just a little more demanding of a fighter before we call them the best. We expect to them to prove it by beating the best, and Vitali didn’t.
My AAARGGGGGHHHH! was in jest, I wasn't biting my desk or eating my chair with anger, honest!... the reason I brought up Mesi and Briggs is that they have both been vastly overrated in the past and had ridiculous things said about them in the past (like that they could actually fight!) ...they dont get the criticism that Vitali gets on here by certian people... I'm trying in my own clumsy way to illustrate how some here have unfairly criticised Klitchenko... yet there are a load of terribly overrated American fighters that noone says boo against.The Great John L wrote:The hostility comment was directed at your “AARRGGHHHH!!!!” and had nothing to do with your mentioning Mesi, Briggs or anyone else.silkov wrote:See what I mean, I mention Mesi as being overrated and I'm called hostile!... jeeze!... look Mesi cant fight a damn and throws a punch like an old washer woman!... is that any better?... my point is some of you guys seem to think its fine to call Vitali Klitchenko a quitter etc yet if I say someone like Mesi is 'overrated' I'm being hostile!!!!???... glass houses and stones John L...!....The Great John L wrote: Wow, you really are hostile. I don’t think ANYONE has made any statements about Mesi being the BEST HW in the world, so I’m unclear what point you are attempting to make. And I’m an American and never thought Tyson had a chance against Lewis. And what does Shannon Briggs have to do with anything!!??
You’re just adding fuel to the fire with your passionate, ill-reasoned tirades on this topic. Not only do I and probably most Americans consider Lewis an ATG HW, I also have no animosity towards The White Wolf or any other foreign HW who isn’t over-hyped and built up by the media. Fighters who earn greatness are generally acknowledged by everyone, but please explain again where Klit proved that he was ever “clearly the best”. Any real boxing fan doesn’t recognize a fighter as “clearly the best” until they have proven it by beating at least a few of the top fighters in their division, and Vitali doesn’t deserve to be in that class of fighter. He was a good HW, but he lost against the 2 guys he needed to beat to be considered “clearly the best”. I don’t think the posters that are saying Vitali wasn’t the best would consider any other HW as “clearly the best” either, because no one since Lewis has earned that distinction.
Take a deep breath and go back to that Tyson thread you started. It’s a little more light hearted.
Please take a deep breath. I’ll try asking a few of these questions again.
What does Mesi have to do with anything? And I’ll add this question – where did anyone say he was the best HW in the world? I don’t think he’s even a footnote in the division.
Please explain again where Klit proved that he was ever “clearly the best”. You seem to be avoiding this question.
And what does Shannon Briggs have to do with anything!!??
You seem to keep changing the topic to avoid addressing the ultimate question of why you have such a passionate opinion about Vitali’s greatness. Some of us are just a little more demanding of a fighter before we call them the best. We expect to them to prove it by beating the best, and Vitali didn’t.
Klitchenko may have not cleared up the division but many viewed him as the best once Lewis retired, who else was there?.... Byrd?... Byrd beat Vitali on an injury... its very doubtful that Byrd would have won otherwise... eitherway its hardly scandalous to say that Vitali was the best when Lewis retired... and to label Vitali a quitter because of his loss to Byrd is simply childish and inaccurate...
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DonCorleone
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 31 Aug 2006, 05:14
:x does come to mind!... luckily I've got a hard head!... 
8) 
You're very dense arent you!... Tyson quit so he lost... I've never heard of a fighter winning a fight by quitting have you?... Vitali lost to Byrd because of an injury... Losing a fight because of injury is now quitting!... or cant you understand this logic??. I've said all this on another thread... hope you can understand by now!...Decagon wrote:That's an apt metaphor for your the lack of logic in your arguments about the heavyweight division.
So, did Mike Tyson really lose to Danny Williams and Kevin McBride? He was ahead on the scorecards when he quit.
I suppose you think Tyson beat Holifield by eating his ear!...
Re: re
Please read my posts son, I've never said that Vitali didnt lose to Byrd... he lost because he was injured... but he didnt quit... while Tyson quit against about 3 fighters... 4 arguably, if you can call his 'performance' against Lewis as actually trying!...Decagon wrote:Yes, you did. You insinuated that we were nationalist:silkov wrote:Read what I wrote Barry, I never insulted anyone...How would you feel if I suggested that you only thought Vitali Klitschko was the man because he was white? I'm actually proud that none of the anti-Klitschko people on the recent topics have stooped to this level (even though, from a media perspective, it's possible that Klitschko's promotion was racially motivated), and accused Klitschko fans of being racist. You, on the other hand, are the one falling to the lowest depths in this discussion.silkov wrote:Well tell me this then, would these guys who are pilloring Klitchenko be flying into rages about him if he was American?...
If someone told me that Mike Tyson didn't really lose to Brian McBride because he was ahead on the scorecards, I'd label him a Mike Tyson nuthugger, and tear into him. When people do the same with Vitali Klitschko, I respond the same. It's NOT about nation of origin, or even race, for me. It's about people continually making stupid statements.
As for me just liking Klitchenko because of his colour thats too stupid to even bother answering and I think at this point you should go on back to school or else read up my long line of posts for evidence of me disliking black or otherwise non-white fighters!... silly boy!
re
>>> I bet if he was American you same guys would be weeping into your keyboards and saying he could have been great and dreaming of matches against Ali etc, etc, etc<<<
>>>Read what I wrote Barry, I never insulted anyone...<<<
So that is not insulting American boxing fans? You make an ignorant generalization about how Americans would probably cry if it were an American fighter that was being debated and again…what are these vicious insults that you claim?
>>>Well tell me this then, would these guys who are pilloring Klitchenko be flying into rages about him if he was American?...<<<
The only person flying into a rage is you! It would not matter if Vitali was American, or not people are going to judge a fighters career for what it was…a few will be overly negative in they’re rants and a few will slip into “Quitschko-Mode” and take the trip to fantasy land!
An example…Tommy Morrison, accomplishment-wise, had a similar career to Vitali Klitschko…actually he probably beat a better quality of opponent overall than Vitali did yet you don’t hear anyone ever crying about how Morrison was the greatest fighter of this year, or that year, or that he was ever great! Most importantly, you don’t hear people/Americans trying to elevate Morrison into this great fighter, placing on top of this very high shrine of fantasy because he wasn’t a great fighter, but he was as American as it gets…and a white man to boot. People try to place Vitali along side of the all-time greats when he was nothing more than a good fighter who was at the Morrison level…not the level of the all-time greats that the nut-huggers like to dream he was!
>>>I'm simply questioning the need of certain people to brand Klitchenko a talentless quitter... is that so outrageous?<<<
Again I ask about the outrageous insults…where are they…where did one single person state that Vitali was a talentless quitter? People have labeled him quitter, but with good reason…where is this other unthinkable insult-fest that is showering Vitali?
>>>I think branding a fighter a quitter is one of the worst insults and in Vitalis case it is totally unwarrented. <<<
It is one of the worst things that can be said of a fighter. And as usual with other Quitschko-Lovers you cannot stay grounded in reality and choose instead to bring up that Klitschko fantasy-world again…no matter how much you try to make up, no matter how many excuses you want to present the actual, honest to God FACT is that Vitali did quit…he quit like a punk…with only two rounds to go in a fight that he was still winning on the cards and the injury is not the most painful that a person can suffer, certainly nothing that would merit a fighter quitting in what was the biggest fight of his career to that point! The label of quitter is very warranted in Vitali’s case…he did quit and there is not one excuse that you, or anyone else can make up which will change that undeniable FACT!!!!
>>>I also question whether this may in part be due to the fact that Klitchenko is Eastern Europeon...this may be a sensitive area but we're all adults here, I'm not calling anyone racist as such... perhaps it is a subliminal Nationalism that is behind it... but I am certain imo that it Vitali was American he would have been appreciated much more and insulted much less.<<<<
That is so much bullshit it is fuking ridiculous…fuking ridiculous. I’m sure there are people who have issues with people from Eastern Europe, and I would bet big money that most of those people live in Europe, but it’s no one in this thread, or any other thread about the Klitschko’s…which I think very easily and very, very plainly can be seen by reading other threads by the people who have responded in the thread and those that you have chose to fictionally label a racist. Most of the posters have been here for a while yet I cannot recall ever seeing them stating anything racist about any fighters…though I would be interested in seeing proof, though I would say that the term actual proof is a dirty word for the nut-huggers, but like the other things I asked you to show I doubt very serious if any racists comments exist. There might be a troll who every now and then drops in for two, or three posts and then he/she is gone, but the people that have been around a while who respond to the Quitshcko threads don’t give a shit where he is from, or what color his skin is!
Like me, they get tired and just cannot stand hearing all of the bullshit fantasy-land tales about how Vitali was this great fighter who “technically” never really lost…that is such bullshit, yet some of you nut-huggers cannot fathom the actual reality…so you start calling people racist…what the hell do they have to be a racist about…and yet again…how about showing us all of these un-Godly insults that have been directed toward Vitali…where are they?
>>>I dont really think this statement is so outrageous... the fact that it seems to provoke such strong reactions in some of you makes me think that I've hit a certain sore point...<<<
Oh yes it is outrageous, very outrageous, but the reason you don’t think so is because you are in “Hi-Gear Klitschko-Mode” and “Klitschko-Mode” is steeped very high in fantasy and bullshit with very little fact to balance things out!
And yet again I ask…where are all of these Godless insults that people are making toward Klitschko? I know you can make up shit with statements such as claiming that people are saying that Vitali was this “Talentless Quitter,” yet I do not recall anyone saying that…that’s the problem…it’s fictional…just like a lot of claims of the nut-huggers!
>>>Regarding Tyson, after the various misdemeanours and acts of savagery which Tyson has committed in the ring (not to mention his behaviour out of it) I'm hardly surprised that support for him has wavered in some people... the fact that you see fit to defend him illustrates my earlier points rather well Barry and supports them imo...<<<<
You are really totally fuking gone some times…I mean stone cold stupid! You have no decent argument, so you start to MAKE-UP shit and pretend like it’s true when you have nothing else…it is really sad that you can do no better than that and I honestly figured you could do better than that.
As I have asked many times about showing all the vicious insults to Vitali that you claim are being made why don’t you also show me where I am defending Tyson…you can’t because I didn’t and being that you are in “Quitschko-Mode Fantasy-Land” you go full-fuking-tilt into the realm of made-up tales! If you can’t have a honest, sensible debate without making up crap about the issue and state, or present some actual FACTS that actually back your claims and tales, then you should really keep out of it.
>>>Read what I wrote Barry, I never insulted anyone...<<<
So that is not insulting American boxing fans? You make an ignorant generalization about how Americans would probably cry if it were an American fighter that was being debated and again…what are these vicious insults that you claim?
>>>Well tell me this then, would these guys who are pilloring Klitchenko be flying into rages about him if he was American?...<<<
The only person flying into a rage is you! It would not matter if Vitali was American, or not people are going to judge a fighters career for what it was…a few will be overly negative in they’re rants and a few will slip into “Quitschko-Mode” and take the trip to fantasy land!
An example…Tommy Morrison, accomplishment-wise, had a similar career to Vitali Klitschko…actually he probably beat a better quality of opponent overall than Vitali did yet you don’t hear anyone ever crying about how Morrison was the greatest fighter of this year, or that year, or that he was ever great! Most importantly, you don’t hear people/Americans trying to elevate Morrison into this great fighter, placing on top of this very high shrine of fantasy because he wasn’t a great fighter, but he was as American as it gets…and a white man to boot. People try to place Vitali along side of the all-time greats when he was nothing more than a good fighter who was at the Morrison level…not the level of the all-time greats that the nut-huggers like to dream he was!
>>>I'm simply questioning the need of certain people to brand Klitchenko a talentless quitter... is that so outrageous?<<<
Again I ask about the outrageous insults…where are they…where did one single person state that Vitali was a talentless quitter? People have labeled him quitter, but with good reason…where is this other unthinkable insult-fest that is showering Vitali?
>>>I think branding a fighter a quitter is one of the worst insults and in Vitalis case it is totally unwarrented. <<<
It is one of the worst things that can be said of a fighter. And as usual with other Quitschko-Lovers you cannot stay grounded in reality and choose instead to bring up that Klitschko fantasy-world again…no matter how much you try to make up, no matter how many excuses you want to present the actual, honest to God FACT is that Vitali did quit…he quit like a punk…with only two rounds to go in a fight that he was still winning on the cards and the injury is not the most painful that a person can suffer, certainly nothing that would merit a fighter quitting in what was the biggest fight of his career to that point! The label of quitter is very warranted in Vitali’s case…he did quit and there is not one excuse that you, or anyone else can make up which will change that undeniable FACT!!!!
>>>I also question whether this may in part be due to the fact that Klitchenko is Eastern Europeon...this may be a sensitive area but we're all adults here, I'm not calling anyone racist as such... perhaps it is a subliminal Nationalism that is behind it... but I am certain imo that it Vitali was American he would have been appreciated much more and insulted much less.<<<<
That is so much bullshit it is fuking ridiculous…fuking ridiculous. I’m sure there are people who have issues with people from Eastern Europe, and I would bet big money that most of those people live in Europe, but it’s no one in this thread, or any other thread about the Klitschko’s…which I think very easily and very, very plainly can be seen by reading other threads by the people who have responded in the thread and those that you have chose to fictionally label a racist. Most of the posters have been here for a while yet I cannot recall ever seeing them stating anything racist about any fighters…though I would be interested in seeing proof, though I would say that the term actual proof is a dirty word for the nut-huggers, but like the other things I asked you to show I doubt very serious if any racists comments exist. There might be a troll who every now and then drops in for two, or three posts and then he/she is gone, but the people that have been around a while who respond to the Quitshcko threads don’t give a shit where he is from, or what color his skin is!
Like me, they get tired and just cannot stand hearing all of the bullshit fantasy-land tales about how Vitali was this great fighter who “technically” never really lost…that is such bullshit, yet some of you nut-huggers cannot fathom the actual reality…so you start calling people racist…what the hell do they have to be a racist about…and yet again…how about showing us all of these un-Godly insults that have been directed toward Vitali…where are they?
>>>I dont really think this statement is so outrageous... the fact that it seems to provoke such strong reactions in some of you makes me think that I've hit a certain sore point...<<<
Oh yes it is outrageous, very outrageous, but the reason you don’t think so is because you are in “Hi-Gear Klitschko-Mode” and “Klitschko-Mode” is steeped very high in fantasy and bullshit with very little fact to balance things out!
And yet again I ask…where are all of these Godless insults that people are making toward Klitschko? I know you can make up shit with statements such as claiming that people are saying that Vitali was this “Talentless Quitter,” yet I do not recall anyone saying that…that’s the problem…it’s fictional…just like a lot of claims of the nut-huggers!
>>>Regarding Tyson, after the various misdemeanours and acts of savagery which Tyson has committed in the ring (not to mention his behaviour out of it) I'm hardly surprised that support for him has wavered in some people... the fact that you see fit to defend him illustrates my earlier points rather well Barry and supports them imo...<<<<
You are really totally fuking gone some times…I mean stone cold stupid! You have no decent argument, so you start to MAKE-UP shit and pretend like it’s true when you have nothing else…it is really sad that you can do no better than that and I honestly figured you could do better than that.
As I have asked many times about showing all the vicious insults to Vitali that you claim are being made why don’t you also show me where I am defending Tyson…you can’t because I didn’t and being that you are in “Quitschko-Mode Fantasy-Land” you go full-fuking-tilt into the realm of made-up tales! If you can’t have a honest, sensible debate without making up crap about the issue and state, or present some actual FACTS that actually back your claims and tales, then you should really keep out of it.
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DonCorleone
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 31 Aug 2006, 05:14
The debate going on on this forum can be summed up thus:
Vitali was shit, a quitter, not the best heavyweight after LL retired, promoted in a racist manner, an inferior fighter to Byrd, would have quit against Lewis ANYWAY if the fight continued.
V
Vitali was ok. Better than the rest of the crap in heavy after LL. Vitali was better than Byrd.
HATE
V
REASON
GOOD
V
EVIL......................
Vitali was shit, a quitter, not the best heavyweight after LL retired, promoted in a racist manner, an inferior fighter to Byrd, would have quit against Lewis ANYWAY if the fight continued.
V
Vitali was ok. Better than the rest of the crap in heavy after LL. Vitali was better than Byrd.
HATE
V
REASON
GOOD
V
EVIL......................
re
>>>I never said that Vitali didnt lose to Byrd... he lost because he was injured... but he didnt quit... <<<
Are you fuking kidding?
If you’re not kidding this is one of the things that I am talking about...pure Klitschko-Mode fantasy bullshit and it takes Nut-Hugging, Ball-washing and reach-arounding to a whole new level!
There is absolutely no FACT to it...none...yet you make the claim like you would bet your life that it’s right, yet it is the most overly-biased, incorrect view that I have yet to see and that is exactly what I mean when I state "Klitschko nut-hugger" as that is nut-hugging beyond anything in reality, but then again there is little reality in Klitschko-Land!!!
Are you fuking kidding?
If you’re not kidding this is one of the things that I am talking about...pure Klitschko-Mode fantasy bullshit and it takes Nut-Hugging, Ball-washing and reach-arounding to a whole new level!
There is absolutely no FACT to it...none...yet you make the claim like you would bet your life that it’s right, yet it is the most overly-biased, incorrect view that I have yet to see and that is exactly what I mean when I state "Klitschko nut-hugger" as that is nut-hugging beyond anything in reality, but then again there is little reality in Klitschko-Land!!!
Re: re
It's interesting that you use Morrison as an example. He was another fighter who, for a while, seemed to cop a lot of unfair criticism. he was a good honest fighter and people used to give him flak for not being an ATG. I could never understand it.barry wrote:
An example…Tommy Morrison, accomplishment-wise, had a similar career to Vitali Klitschko…actually he probably beat a better quality of opponent overall than Vitali did yet you don’t hear anyone ever crying about how Morrison was the greatest fighter of this year, or that year, or that he was ever great! Most importantly, you don’t hear people/Americans trying to elevate Morrison into this great fighter, placing on top of this very high shrine of fantasy because he wasn’t a great fighter, but he was as American as it gets…and a white man to boot. People try to place Vitali along side of the all-time greats when he was nothing more than a good fighter who was at the Morrison level…not the level of the all-time greats that the nut-huggers like to dream he was!
It's true.Decagon wrote:Byrd > Vitali.
I there's no logical reason to suggest otherwise. Yeah, Vitali won six or seven rounds, but he won ZERO fights against Byrd. Byrd beat much, much, much better competition, and Vitali refused to rematch Byrd.
What would your odds have been for the rematch? I do think VK would have won had they fought again. Of course it's only speculation...
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
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DonCorleone
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 31 Aug 2006, 05:14
Re: re
Nobody here has claimed anything as outrageous as 'Vitali was an all time great'. I myself am just bemused at the complete lack of one little iota of respect for what was a decent fighter and a decent man. If you don't agree with the opinion that Vitali was a little better than the rest at a particular time it should be sufficient to state your adverse opinion.barry wrote:>>>I never said that Vitali didnt lose to Byrd... he lost because he was injured... but he didnt quit... <<<
Are you fuking kidding?
If you’re not kidding this is one of the things that I am talking about...pure Klitschko-Mode fantasy bullshit and it takes Nut-Hugging, Ball-washing and reach-arounding to a whole new level!
There is absolutely no FACT to it...none...yet you make the claim like you would bet your life that it’s right, yet it is the most overly-biased, incorrect view that I have yet to see and that is exactly what I mean when I state "Klitschko nut-hugger" as that is nut-hugging beyond anything in reality, but then again there is little reality in Klitschko-Land!!!
But that's not enough, is it? You really HATE Vitali. It can only be for personal reasons.
This has gone beyond debate. Why do you hate the guy? I genuinely want to know, that's not a comment meant to insult. If Silkov's vague references to racial bias are unfounded you should have a ready answer.
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pundit
- Heavyweight
Re: re
So Vitali's #1 status is now confirmed by a vote of 19 (16 KOs) - 5..
79 Percent support for Vitali. Even more impressive than I imagined....
P
PS: and as with the fight, the votes for Byrd should't really count -- they are based on an obvious misconception. But let's be generous and leave the misconceived votes in -- after all, Vitali can afford that easily.
79 Percent support for Vitali. Even more impressive than I imagined....
P
PS: and as with the fight, the votes for Byrd should't really count -- they are based on an obvious misconception. But let's be generous and leave the misconceived votes in -- after all, Vitali can afford that easily.
re
>>>But that's not enough, is it? You really HATE Vitali. It can only be for personal reasons. This has gone beyond debate. Why do you hate the guy? I genuinely want to know, that's not a comment meant to insult. If Silkov's vague references to racial bias are unfounded you should have a ready answer.<<<
Newbie...I have been debating the Klitschko nut-huggers...not so much Vitali. All I have said about Vitali is he was a quitter who was a good heavyweight, but that's all...he wasn't great, he wasn't an all-time guy, he was a good heavyweight...there have been 100s and 100s of good heavyweights, but there are very, very, very few good heavyweights that ever quit a fight while in they're prime, but I would love to hear some other examples if someone can find any...and sorry, but an old, many years over the hill Tyson is not the same as a fighter in his prime, which Tyson certainly quit as well...when he was an old-man who was past it, but he never did in his prime, but Vitali did!
Now if you have some actual examples of my supposed "hate" feelings toward Vitali then why don't you give some examples of what you are talkng about...can you do that, or will you do like some others and just start making up bullshit lies?
Sure he's a decent human being, but we are not discussing human ethics here...we're talking about what he did, or didn't accomplish in the ring...if that's over your head find another topic, but you're not going to get anywhere by making up shit...
Hell even the people who despise me know that I have never been racist toward any fighters and it's just plain ignorant for a newbie like you to try to make the claim...and for the record, I'm not really debating Vitali now...it's about the disillusioned people that occupy "Klitschko-Fantasy Land" that I am debating, so try to keep up!
But mainly and most importantly…present these "hate" insults that I, or anyone else has stated about Klitschkop...Silkov hasn’t been able to present anything to show it, he has just made up a few things, but he has not been able to present all of these Devil-like insults that you two claim are being made toward Vitali, so why don’t you now present us with all the supposed hate-speech toward Vitali and if you can't then shut up about it, but first you need to serve up an apology for the incorrect claim that you make!
Newbie...I have been debating the Klitschko nut-huggers...not so much Vitali. All I have said about Vitali is he was a quitter who was a good heavyweight, but that's all...he wasn't great, he wasn't an all-time guy, he was a good heavyweight...there have been 100s and 100s of good heavyweights, but there are very, very, very few good heavyweights that ever quit a fight while in they're prime, but I would love to hear some other examples if someone can find any...and sorry, but an old, many years over the hill Tyson is not the same as a fighter in his prime, which Tyson certainly quit as well...when he was an old-man who was past it, but he never did in his prime, but Vitali did!
Now if you have some actual examples of my supposed "hate" feelings toward Vitali then why don't you give some examples of what you are talkng about...can you do that, or will you do like some others and just start making up bullshit lies?
Sure he's a decent human being, but we are not discussing human ethics here...we're talking about what he did, or didn't accomplish in the ring...if that's over your head find another topic, but you're not going to get anywhere by making up shit...
Hell even the people who despise me know that I have never been racist toward any fighters and it's just plain ignorant for a newbie like you to try to make the claim...and for the record, I'm not really debating Vitali now...it's about the disillusioned people that occupy "Klitschko-Fantasy Land" that I am debating, so try to keep up!
But mainly and most importantly…present these "hate" insults that I, or anyone else has stated about Klitschkop...Silkov hasn’t been able to present anything to show it, he has just made up a few things, but he has not been able to present all of these Devil-like insults that you two claim are being made toward Vitali, so why don’t you now present us with all the supposed hate-speech toward Vitali and if you can't then shut up about it, but first you need to serve up an apology for the incorrect claim that you make!
re
>>>79 Percent support for Vitali. Even more impressive than I imagined<<<
Now unlike Vitali's quitting...this poll is something that really doesn't mean anything since the voters are pretty much unknown and even if they weren't unknown I doubt very seriously if there were any credible boxing reporters who voted for Vitali...most people would be too embarrassed to speak up if they did vote for Vitali, so lets see a big show of hands…who all voted for Vitali...come on...don't be ashamed!
Actually, I would probably bet that you logged on under many different names and that is probably where most of the votes came from...the "Klitschko-Fantasyland-Nut-Hugging Lovers-Band."
You see the difference in that Godfather Corleone? I'm not talking shit about Vitali...I talking shit about the Klitschko-Fantasyland-Nut-Hugging Lovers-Band.
Now unlike Vitali's quitting...this poll is something that really doesn't mean anything since the voters are pretty much unknown and even if they weren't unknown I doubt very seriously if there were any credible boxing reporters who voted for Vitali...most people would be too embarrassed to speak up if they did vote for Vitali, so lets see a big show of hands…who all voted for Vitali...come on...don't be ashamed!
Actually, I would probably bet that you logged on under many different names and that is probably where most of the votes came from...the "Klitschko-Fantasyland-Nut-Hugging Lovers-Band."
You see the difference in that Godfather Corleone? I'm not talking shit about Vitali...I talking shit about the Klitschko-Fantasyland-Nut-Hugging Lovers-Band.