Beterbiev and the Atypical VADA result

[Controversial]

I think another question that needs to be asked is how much knowledge did the Smith camp have PRIOR to the bout taking place.

If they had knowledge of it, but still accepted the fight - then my sympathy for posting after the fight is diminished and I cannot help thinking "sore losers" - if they had no knowledge of it and everything was hushed hushed on the basis of the passed follow up, then it is very very bad practice of the commissions / sanctioning bodies / promoters.

It was known, here is Smith talking about it before the fight, around 3min 35 in

[a force]

I think another question that needs to be asked is how much knowledge did the Smith camp have PRIOR to the bout taking place.

If they had knowledge of it, but still accepted the fight - then my sympathy for posting after the fight is diminished and I cannot help thinking "sore losers" - if they had no knowledge of it and everything was hushed hushed on the basis of the passed follow up, then it is very very bad practice of the commissions / sanctioning bodies / promoters.

It’s easy to blame Snith for taking it but he’s not earned from boxing for nearly 2 years & this is the second camp in the States he’s had for this fight paying for flights, accommodation, sparring partners etc. It’s a huge expense to not get a pay day at the end of it.

[a force]

It’s very suspicious.

The testers leave quite a lot of room from what would be classed as normal readings & what would trigger a positive test because you can get natural spikes.

However to get a natural spike at 39 whilst deep in training camp & cutting weight screams of doping.

No ones readings should be going up when they’re depleted.

It’s one of the big signs of doping in cycling. In grand tours riders levels going up in the 3rd week of a stage race when all logic says they should be going down.

[polecateddy]

It’s been covered to death on other threads. Nearer the fight in the testing zone, it’s micro dosing they use. Small amounts injected overnight, safe in the knowledge VADA isn’t going to test them between say 11pm and 8am. All trace leaving system by breakfast. Testosterone may rise and fat may be burned quicker etc. And if you get caught you can always say it was a tiny amount. Must have been contaminated food or whatever.

[leejonesjnr]

It’s very suspicious.

However to get a natural spike at 39 whilst deep in training camp & cutting weight screams of doping.

No ones readings should be going up when they’re depleted.

Is that true?
Whilst training intensely and getting quality sleep, testosterone and HGH does increase, which would be in line with life in camp.
Beyond that, has any data been released? How much of a jump from his other tests are we talking about?

[leejonesjnr]

So because his subsequent tests were ok that’s fine ??

Everyone seems so causal about it ..

Either a tainted sample (unlikely for HGH) or he cycled off ?

Atypical does not mean the same thing as adverse and nothing in Beterbievs results were outside of what can be naturally occurring.
Of course it is possible that someone who has never failed a test is dirty but it should be clearer to people that Beterbiev has never failed a test.

I don't know enough about these things but surely for VADA to report a spike in HGH and testosterone means something otherwise why mention it? The guy is 39 this month, I'm not sure how common it is for those things to spike as you get older but I know testosterone gradually lowers the older you get.

VADA didn’t make any public statement about it did they?

[polecateddy]

It’s very suspicious.

However to get a natural spike at 39 whilst deep in training camp & cutting weight screams of doping.

No ones readings should be going up when they’re depleted.

Is that true?
Whilst training intensely and getting quality sleep, testosterone and HGH does increase, which would be in line with life in camp.
Beyond that, has any data been released? How much of a jump from his other tests are we talking about?

They’ll guard the data to death. Experts would pull apart their defences. In terms of testosterone people don’t generally move from the middle range to right of the top of the legal limits for testosterone ratios just by getting a good nights sleep. I’d imagine if some of these boxers actually showed off their fight by fight vada data it would make bizarre reading.

[emallini]

The reaction of people on these things all depends on whether they like the fighter or not.

[Controversial]

Atypical does not mean the same thing as adverse and nothing in Beterbievs results were outside of what can be naturally occurring.
Of course it is possible that someone who has never failed a test is dirty but it should be clearer to people that Beterbiev has never failed a test.

I don't know enough about these things but surely for VADA to report a spike in HGH and testosterone means something otherwise why mention it? The guy is 39 this month, I'm not sure how common it is for those things to spike as you get older but I know testosterone gradually lowers the older you get.

VADA didn’t make any public statement about it did they?

The only thing I could find was this

“However, VADA founder and president Dr Margaret Goodman was keen to clear up speculation of wrongdoing in her pronouncement of atypical findings as relatively routine in repeat drugs testing.

'Atypical findings are fairly common in PED (performance enhancing drug) testing and do not constitute an adverse test result,' Goodman told Boxing News.

'They can result from various causes. Atypical findings generally warrant the collection of further samples. But no negative inference should be drawn from an atypical finding in and of itself.'

[leejonesjnr]

It’s very suspicious.

However to get a natural spike at 39 whilst deep in training camp & cutting weight screams of doping.

No ones readings should be going up when they’re depleted.

Is that true?
Whilst training intensely and getting quality sleep, testosterone and HGH does increase, which would be in line with life in camp.
Beyond that, has any data been released? How much of a jump from his other tests are we talking about?

They’ll guard the data to death. Experts would pull apart their defences. In terms of testosterone people don’t generally move from the middle range to right of the top of the legal limits for testosterone ratios just by getting a good nights sleep. I’d imagine if some of these boxers actually showed off their fight by fight vada data it would make bizarre reading.

Has Beterbiev moved from the middle range to the very top of legal limits? Where have you seen that please?

[Controversial]

Is that true?
Whilst training intensely and getting quality sleep, testosterone and HGH does increase, which would be in line with life in camp.
Beyond that, has any data been released? How much of a jump from his other tests are we talking about?

They’ll guard the data to death. Experts would pull apart their defences. In terms of testosterone people don’t generally move from the middle range to right of the top of the legal limits for testosterone ratios just by getting a good nights sleep. I’d imagine if some of these boxers actually showed off their fight by fight vada data it would make bizarre reading.

Has Beterbiev moved from the middle range to the very top of legal limits? Where have you seen that please?

Isn’t that what an atypical result suggests, not a fail but higher HGH and testosterone than what is considered normal?

[leejonesjnr]

They’ll guard the data to death. Experts would pull apart their defences. In terms of testosterone people don’t generally move from the middle range to right of the top of the legal limits for testosterone ratios just by getting a good nights sleep. I’d imagine if some of these boxers actually showed off their fight by fight vada data it would make bizarre reading.

Has Beterbiev moved from the middle range to the very top of legal limits? Where have you seen that please?

Isn’t that what an atypical result suggests, not a fail but higher HGH and testosterone than what is considered normal?

IT suggests a higher result than expected, it doesn't make any comment on previous readings. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a man who has stopped all of his opponents and looks like he might be part beast has a higher than average level of testosterone all day every day, hence the question, 'where is this data from?'
Perhaps the guy is dirty, but I feel like the evidence isn't there to hang him just yet.

[cormack]

he will pick his fights carefully now and stay away from the UK for example where the testing would " probably " catch him out .
VADA seems to be less stringent IMHO

[Controversial]

Has Beterbiev moved from the middle range to the very top of legal limits? Where have you seen that please?

Isn’t that what an atypical result suggests, not a fail but higher HGH and testosterone than what is considered normal?

IT suggests a higher result than expected, it doesn't make any comment on previous readings. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a man who has stopped all of his opponents and looks like he might be part beast has a higher than average level of testosterone all day every day, hence the question, 'where is this data from?'
Perhaps the guy is dirty, but I feel like the evidence isn't there to hang him just yet.

It will depend on what range VADA consider normal but they give fairly generous limits over what the average person would be. So for it to be seen as high enough not to pass suggests he either has extremely high levels naturally or something else is at play. I’d be surprised if a 39 year old male who is cutting weight has very high testosterone naturally but maybe he does.

[skanksta]

I just shrug and think, "they're all at it to some degree"

Feel really bad for Smiff if not, but can't listen to Eddie after Conor Benn and (many) others...

[leejonesjnr]

Isn’t that what an atypical result suggests, not a fail but higher HGH and testosterone than what is considered normal?

IT suggests a higher result than expected, it doesn't make any comment on previous readings. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a man who has stopped all of his opponents and looks like he might be part beast has a higher than average level of testosterone all day every day, hence the question, 'where is this data from?'
Perhaps the guy is dirty, but I feel like the evidence isn't there to hang him just yet.

It will depend on what range VADA consider normal but they give fairly generous limits over what the average person would be. So for it to be seen as high enough not to pass suggests he either has extremely high levels naturally or something else is at play. I’d be surprised if a 39 year old male who is cutting weight has very high testosterone naturally but maybe he does.

I don't wish to appear rude nor get into an argument about this but I am losing interest now. I believe that Beterbiev doesn't massively cut to 175 and lives a very disciplined life. If more info comes out then I will pick this up again.

[Controversial]

IT suggests a higher result than expected, it doesn't make any comment on previous readings. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a man who has stopped all of his opponents and looks like he might be part beast has a higher than average level of testosterone all day every day, hence the question, 'where is this data from?'
Perhaps the guy is dirty, but I feel like the evidence isn't there to hang him just yet.

It will depend on what range VADA consider normal but they give fairly generous limits over what the average person would be. So for it to be seen as high enough not to pass suggests he either has extremely high levels naturally or something else is at play. I’d be surprised if a 39 year old male who is cutting weight has very high testosterone naturally but maybe he does.

I don't wish to appear rude nor get into an argument about this but I am losing interest now. I believe that Beterbiev doesn't massively cut to 175 and lives a very disciplined life. If more info comes out then I will pick this up again.

No worries, I was just responding to your posts of mine you commented on

[tonyevs]

Has Beterbiev moved from the middle range to the very top of legal limits? Where have you seen that please?

Isn’t that what an atypical result suggests, not a fail but higher HGH and testosterone than what is considered normal?

IT suggests a higher result than expected, it doesn't make any comment on previous readings. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a man who has stopped all of his opponents and looks like he might be part beast has a higher than average level of testosterone all day every day, hence the question, 'where is this data from?'
Perhaps the guy is dirty, but I feel like the evidence isn't there to hang him just yet.

He would have been tested before - so had any of these been flagged before because he was naturally producing higher than normal levels? from my recollection there had been none previous.
And whilst HGH and testosterone are said to increase during intense exercise, they only increase for a few short minutes ...

[coneye]

Well i freely admit i know ZILCH about juicing , steroids , HGH , and all the other stuff , whats more i think most others only know what they read which can often be wrong , theres many around who know a lot but might be reculant to actually tell us , so we really have to go by what the people who know about it all say , and thats the ones testing , now they have said atypical is not illigal , its just a warning flag to test more , like a cop pulling someone over to breath test because they are going from side to side in there lane , there not breaking the law or driving dangerous because there within the lines not crossing them , but still a reason to pull over and test ,

seems Atypical is pretty much along them lines , and he was retested and NOTHING TO SEE but does mean he's clean well the answer to that is YES because he was tested and tested again and found CLEAN , We can wonder and think all we want , is Tommy Fury clean i wonder and think , but untill he's tested positive we have to say he's clean , Its not has if these testers pick and choose who is and who is'nt , theres plenty of examples where big names , popular fighters have been pinged , Can think of 3 in 3 seconds , all british by the way , so i don't know why the inference from a lot that he's russian so he's on the gear comes from , we have plenty of home grown cheats to worry about , but Bellow gives them a pass , only if there his mates or with matchroom though

[si7dog7]

This might be just me but,
A 40 year old destroying all oppo. A killer on the march until when?

Is this real?

I’m a bit cynical on this.

Unless the Light Heavy roster is so devoid of talent.

I dunno. I wanna believe.
.

[Monzon83]

Maybe he’s on a TRT dose?

Anyway, who gives a shit, British fighters are very hypocritical. Overseas fighter having drug test anomalies or adverse findings and they can’t shut up about it.

Fury tests positive for Nandrolone. The moron Whyte tests positive for Dianabol and then fails another test. Yet barely a word about that.

Conor Benn tests positive for Clomid, a drug that is used specifically to restart testosterone production after steroid usage and apparently he’s just eaten too many eggs.

The double standards here are embarrassing.

[margaret thatcher]

The reaction of people on these things all depends on whether they like the fighter or not.

some ppl are consistent, but ya for the most part its all about playing faves

the most prolific poster bashing benn for his ped failure was also a fanboi of tyson 'boar balls' fury. they bashed joshua for marijuana use as well but had no issue with fury doing cocaine, etc. i.e. not actually giving a sh!t about the drugs, only who was involved

i remember wilder fans who continued to worshiip luis ortiz, a 2x ped failure, being so gitty over whyte's failures too.

many worshipped greats were caught with peds and get a pass. jones jr, morales, evan fields, etc.

[coneye]

This might be just me but,
A 40 year old destroying all oppo. A killer on the march until when?

Is this real?

I’m a bit cynical on this.

Unless the Light Heavy roster is so devoid of talent.

I dunno. I wanna believe.
.

Lets bring it back , a LOT OF LEVELS , in fact right back to novice level , i was approached 2 years ago by a guy 36 he wanted to box , i told him naaaw your too old , waay to old to start , i only want 1 maybee 2 bouts he said just to complete a dream , he trained antyway , he got my attention , i took him on pads and thought fook me this guy can bang , i said i'll train you for just one or two fights at masters novice level , anyway first thing i noticed after 2-3 months of just having him do nothing but basics for 3-4 months , was the guys a natural show him once , and he picked it up , started taking him for sparring , 2 nd thing i noticed no matter where i took him NO ONE except the bigger more experienced ameteurs would spar him , he just hit too hard , , the only ones who could handle him were experienced guys who were bigger , 7 months and put him in , turned out he was too young for the masters , so he went in the mainstream , first fight opponent 24 , 4 fights 2-2 ,, he won ko in about 30 seconds , 2nd fight opponent 23 4 fights 4 wins , he won ko rnd 1 , then give it away thanked me profusly said he had done his dream , gonna go back to concentrating on work and kids ,

It was dedication , determination and natural power enebled hm to achieve his dream plus the ability to absorb and retain information age was just a number with this guy , but age gave him a maturity over others , he is a bricklayer and a tough hard man , and did'nt matter how good they were he just walked through them cracked them and took there confidence , guy is a machine , i wish e had come to me at 15 , .

Point being take a guy with a similar mindset and 100's of ameteur fights , dedication you could'nt believe , talent like the rest of us can nly dream we have , self confidence and hardness thats not natural , and you have a 39 Beiterbiev , there rare but they are out there , me i don't knock it i just watch and admire

And its got e fooked why Bert is russian so he's a cheat , when he's not been caught taking anything , but british fighters are ok even when caught . , facts are Bert is just a strong hard man with immense experience and even more talent

[si7dog7]

This might be just me but,
A 40 year old destroying all oppo. A killer on the march until when?

Is this real?

I’m a bit cynical on this.

Unless the Light Heavy roster is so devoid of talent.

I dunno. I wanna believe.
.

Lets bring it back , a LOT OF LEVELS , in fact right back to novice level , i was approached 2 years ago by a guy 36 he wanted to box , i told him naaaw your too old , waay to old to start , i only want 1 maybee 2 bouts he said just to complete a dream , he trained antyway , he got my attention , i took him on pads and thought fook me this guy can bang , i said i'll train you for just one or two fights at masters novice level , anyway first thing i noticed after 2-3 months of just having him do nothing but basics for 3-4 months , was the guys a natural show him once , and he picked it up , started taking him for sparring , 2 nd thing i noticed no matter where i took him NO ONE except the bigger more experienced ameteurs would spar him , he just hit too hard , , the only ones who could handle him were experienced guys who were bigger , 7 months and put him in , turned out he was too young for the masters , so he went in the mainstream , first fight opponent 24 , 4 fights 2-2 ,, he won ko in about 30 seconds , 2nd fight opponent 23 4 fights 4 wins , he won ko rnd 1 , then give it away thanked me profusly said he had done his dream , gonna go back to concentrating on work and kids ,

It was dedication , determination and natural power enebled hm to achieve his dream plus the ability to absorb and retain information age was just a number with this guy , but age gave him a maturity over others , he is a bricklayer and a tough hard man , and did'nt matter how good they were he just walked through them cracked them and took there confidence , guy is a machine , i wish e had come to me at 15 , .

Point being take a guy with a similar mindset and 100's of ameteur fights , dedication you could'nt believe , talent like the rest of us can nly dream we have , self confidence and hardness thats not natural , and you have a 39 Beiterbiev , there rare but they are out there , me i don't knock it i just watch and admire

And its got e fooked why Bert is russian so he's a cheat , when he's not been caught taking anything , but british fighters are ok even when caught . , facts are Bert is just a strong hard man with immense experience and even more talent

I get that and total respect for your post.
I’m not in the Liam Smith “throwback shade” camp.
It’s just a bit of an anomaly at this level.
Big George did it in his mid forties but he was paired fair. Until.
How many other 40+ year olds are wrecking balls?
It’s not a Russian thing. It’s a whats going on thing?.

[si7dog7]

Btw I don’t give anyone a pass. Especially British cheats. Never.