Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman - Who wins?

Who wins?

Poll ended at 28 Jul 2025, 04:08

Tszyu - Decision
10
18%
Tszyu - T/KO
33
60%
DRAW
2
4%
Thurman - T/KO
1
2%
Thurman - Decision
9
16%
 
Total votes: 55

Ruthless-RKO
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Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman - Who wins?

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

Image

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Sources: Tim Tszyu set to defend WBO title vs. Keith Thurman

Tim Tszyu will defend his WBO junior middleweight title against Keith Thurman on March 30 in Las Vegas, sources tell ESPN. The 154-pound title bout will headline PBC's first pay-per-view as part of its new deal with Amazon's Prime Video.

Tszyu (24-0, 17 KOs) broke through in 2023 with wins over former titleholder Tony Harrison by ninth-round TKO, Carlos Ocampo by first-round knockout and Brian Mendoza by unanimous decision. The 29-year-old Australian said after his win over Mendoza in October that he would campaign in the U.S. going forward.

Tszyu, the son of Hall of Fame boxer Kostya Tszyu, will start his quest for stateside stardom with a fight against his most high-profile opponent yet in Thurman, a former unified welterweight champion and one of the best 148-pound fighters of the previous decade. Thurman (30-1, 22 KOs), 35, has one career loss, against the legendary Manny Pacquiao in July 2019, when Thurman was floored in Round 1 and rallied before dropping a split decision.

But Thurman has been woefully inactive. His lone fight since the defeat to Pacquiao came in February 2022, when he defeated Mario Barrios by unanimous decision. The win was Thurman's only bout in the past four-and-a-half years.

He'll end a 25-month layoff when he moves up one weight class to challenge Tszyu, ESPN's No. 2 boxer at 154 pounds. Tszyu was set to challenge Jermell Charlo for the undisputed junior middleweight championship last January before Charlo withdrew with a hand injury.

Tszyu went on to win the WBO's interim title and was later elevated to champion when Charlo was stripped. Thurman owns quality decision victories over Shawn Porter and Danny Garcia in 2016 and '17, respectively.

The event marks the start of PBC's partnership with Amazon's Prime Video, though the PPV will also be available on linear television. PBC has been Showtime's main boxing provider since 2013, but the network announced in October it would disband its sports programming.
Last edited by Ruthless-RKO on 12 Mar 2025, 09:21, edited 5 times in total.
gregregegg
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by gregregegg »

Is this still a good fight? I think it’s kinda better than it feels.

Thurman is only 35 (feels older)

Thurman win over barrios has aged well.

Thurman only loss is a SD to Pac.

Thurman had been a welter forever going up 7 lbs probably makes sense in his mid 30s.


I don’t love this fight, Thurman carrer activity has been pathetic. But it’s a fairly good fight for tszyu if Charlo wants to duck.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by giacomino »

gregregegg wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 04:55 Is this still a good fight? I think it’s kinda better than it feels.

Thurman is only 35 (feels older)

Thurman win over barrios has aged well.

Thurman only loss is a SD to Pac.

Thurman had been a welter forever going up 7 lbs probably makes sense in his mid 30s.


I don’t love this fight, Thurman carrer activity has been pathetic. But it’s a fairly good fight for tszyu if Charlo wants to duck.
Is this a good fight? For Tsyzu? Yes. Thurman is 35 and he has fought once in going on five years at this point and is moving up in weight. He was never a big KO guy at 147 and hasn't fought above 150 in more than a decade. He might teach Tszyu a trick or two - which is never bad - but Tszyu should eventually cruise, build his base of supporters in the US and hopefully get a big fight next.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Syntax Error »

Keith Thurman is having a fight? :oo :oo :oo

I feel as though this monumental occasion needs marking by white smoke billowing from the Sistine Chapel, or Big Ben banging one time, to mark the amount of fights he's had in the last 5 years.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by gregregegg »

Ok if the belts not on the line this is now a kinda shit fight.

What’s up with aussies booking volantary defences without checking if the gov body will allow it.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by handsofstone »

Just read that Tszyu is the first Aussie to headline a PPV in America in 3 decades, can anyone tell me who was the last ??
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Evander »

Has Thurman got the legs for this.
Top of my head it could be a tale of two sides to the fight, Thurman starting ok early and Tszyu coming on to stop or dominate him.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Perseus »

This fight is nothing more than cherry picking an older, smaller fighter who has name recognition but his days as a legit top fighter are long gone.

The win over Barrios has not aged well.
Since then Barrios has beat two guys who were stopped in their previous fights and neither has won a fight in well over 2 years.
Last edited by Perseus on 25 Jan 2024, 21:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by gregregegg »

Perseus wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:29 This fight is nothing more than cherry picking an older, smaller fighter who has name recognition but his days as a legit top fighter are long gone.

The win over Barrios has not aged well.
Since then Barrios has beat two guys who were stopped in their previous fights and neither has won a fight in nearly 3 years.
The fight win against barros has aged well to me.

Barros was coming off getting stopped by a 130lber when Thurman decisioned him. That was a bad look. But then barros went on to beat ugas, who is a good big welter who has beat Pac, probably should have beat porter, and gave Spence a decent fight.

Ugas is undeniably barroses best win (and at welter making barros feel more legit at the weight) and it came after the Thurman fight, hence why I think barros scalp looks better now than it did on the night.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Perseus »

gregregegg wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:41
Perseus wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:29 This fight is nothing more than cherry picking an older, smaller fighter who has name recognition but his days as a legit top fighter are long gone.

The win over Barrios has not aged well.
Since then Barrios has beat two guys who were stopped in their previous fights and neither has won a fight in nearly 3 years.
The fight win against barros has aged well to me.

Barros was coming off getting stopped by a 130lber when Thurman decisioned him. That was a bad look. But then barros went on to beat ugas, who is a good big welter who has beat Pac, probably should have beat porter, and gave Spence a decent fight.

Ugas is undeniably barroses best win (and at welter making barros feel more legit at the weight) and it came after the Thurman fight, hence why I think barros scalp looks better now than it did on the night.
Ugas did not give Spence a good fight. He gave him rounds, that's it.
Ugas happened to be the opponent when 40-something Pac showed the world he doesn't belong in the ring anymore......... two years after the Thurman fight.
The Barrios scalp didn't look good then and it still doesn't.
If giving a late 30s fighter his 6th loss is your best win............you're not very good.

.....and Thurman has all of one win and two fights in the last 5 years.
Yeah, that's not a cherry pick at all :roll:
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

Keith Thurman positioned as A-side against Tim Tszyu, fight official for March 30

It’s mildly interesting to note that the 35-year-old Thurman is being positioned as the promotional A-side for the bout, despite being the title challenger and certainly not the rising star in the matchup.

If you’re wondering exactly what “promotional A-side” means, in theory it doesn’t mean a ton, but the social media hashtag for the bout is #ThurmanTszyu and not #TszyuThurman, for instance, which comes from the belief that Thurman is the bigger star.

In some ways, that may still be true, despite the fact that Thurman (30-1, 22 KO) hasn’t fought in two years and has just one fight in the last four-and-a-half years, and three in the last seven by the time he hits the ring to face the 29-year-old Tszyu (24-0, 17 KO).

The only thing it may do on the Tszyu side is further motivate the second-generation fighter, who could take it as a bit of a slight and/or a chance to prove he truly is the goods, a proper star in the making.

Tszyu, despite not getting a promised undisputed fight with Jermell Charlo, fought three times in 2023, stopping Tony Harrison and Carlos Ocampo before a hard-fought and clear decision win over Brian Mendoza, which saw Tszyu elevated from interim WBO champion to full recognition, shortly after Charlo was stripped of the WBO belt for fighting Canelo Alvarez at super middleweight. (But not before he was announced in the ring as the undisputed 154 lb champion, because that might have had a negative impact on marketing, and that’s what’s most important.)
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

The previously reported undercard is also fully official:

Rolando Romero (15-1, 13 KO) will face Isaac Cruz (25-2-1, 17 KO) in a commercially strong chief support bout, with Romero defending the WBA 140 lb title. This could involve Ismael Barroso being given some step-aside money, as he is Romero’s mandatory, but that wouldn’t be too unusual for boxing. It also wouldn’t be too unusual for a sanctioning body to simply ignore its own rules, because Romero vs Cruz is worth a lot more money than Romero vs Barroso 2. Cruz is coming up from the 135 lb division.

Erislandy Lara (29-3-3, 17 KO) will defend his WBA middleweight title against Michael Zerafa (31-4, 19 KO), who has been sitting and waiting for his shot. The 40-year-old Lara hasn’t fought since May 2022, and his “middleweight title reign” has been about as empty as possible, starting with a vacant secondary title win over a guy called “Corn Flake” and followed by a dominant win over eternal fringe contender Spike O’Sullivan. Zerafa has won four in a row since losing a rematch with Jeff Horn in 2019, biding his time with domestic level fights, including a TKO-1 over an ancient Anthony Mundine, before finally getting his WBA shot.

Sebastian Fundora (20-1-1, 13 KO) takes on Serhii Bohachuk (23-1, 23 KO) in what has a very high chance of being the show-stealer bout. Fundora is usually quite fun to watch, as is Bohachuk, and there could be plenty of action here. Bohachuk, 28, is finally getting onto a proper “big stage” after spending years on smaller shows. It’s kind of make-or-break for him in this one.
Last edited by Ruthless-RKO on 14 Feb 2024, 06:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

Press Release

A pair of all-action, high-stakes showdowns will top a stacked four-fight pay-per-view event as two-time world champion Keith “One Time” Thurman duels rising star and reigning world champion Tim Tszyu in the main event while 140-pound world champion Rolando “Rolly” Romero and Mexican star Isaac “Pitbull” Cruz meet in the co-main event on Saturday, March 30 in the inaugural PBC Pay-Per-View available on Prime Video from T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas.

The card marks the debut event for PBC Pay-Per-View available through Prime Video since the parties announced a landmark, multiyear rights agreement in December. In addition to the PPV being available for purchase on Prime Video, regardless of Prime membership, fans will also be able to continue to access the telecast through traditional cable and satellite outlets.

The pay-per-view will also see Cuban star and reigning WBA Middleweight World Champion Erislandy “The American Dream” Lara defend his belt against No. 1 rated mandatory challenger Michael Zerafa, plus all-action super welterweight sensation Sebastian “The Towering Inferno” Fundora will meet streaking contender Serhii Bohachuk in the pay-per-view opener.

*Ticketing information to be announced shortly. The event is promoted by TGB Promotions. The main event is promoted in association with No Limit Boxing.

“This first show with PBC on Prime Video is jam-packed with fan-friendly matchups featuring stars who are established as the best of their generation and new stars who are looking to make a claim to lead the next generation of champions,” said Tom Brown, President of TGB Promotions. “Keith Thurman vs. Tim Tszyu gives each fighter a chance to debut 2024 with a statement, while ‘Rolly’ Romero and ‘Pitbull’ Cruz can send their ascending stock skyrocketing by emerging victorious. With two more clashes rounding out the pay-per-view, this lines up as another night from T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas that you’ll want to stay glued to your seat for.”

“This is an historic event and puts the Tszyu name right back at the pinnacle of boxing where it belongs,” said George Rose, CEO of No Limit Boxing. “Tim only wanted the big names, legacy fights, and Keith Thurman is exactly that. It doesn’t end well for Thurman though as the world is going to realize Tim Tszyu is about to take over the sport. Thank you Premier Boxing Champions, TGB Promotions and Prime Video for what is going to be an incredible night of boxing.”

The main event will see the former unified world champion Thurman, a long-time stalwart at welterweight, take his first crack at the super welterweight division as he faces the undefeated reigning WBO 154-pound World Champion Tszyu in a 12-round non-title showdown.

Clearwater, Florida’s Thurman (30-1, 22 KOs) earned his “One Time” moniker by talking the talk and delivering with highlight-reel KOs. He has assembled one of the most impressive resumes among the top welterweights of this generation, having defeated former champions Shawn Porter, Danny Garcia and Robert Guerrero. That showdown with Garcia saw him become a unified world champion in a rare unification bout between undefeated welterweight world champions. Thurman’s only blemish came in a 2019 Fight of the Year against boxing legend Manny Pacquiao, with Thurman ending up on the wrong side of a narrow split-decision. Most recently, Thurman bested former world champion and current highly ranked welterweight Mario Barrios by unanimous decision in February 2022.

The son of International Boxing Hall of Famer Kostya Tszyu, the 29-year-old Tszyu (24-0, 17 KOs) comes off a red-hot 2023 campaign that saw him elevated to world champion at 154-pounds while defeating former world champion Tony Harrison, top contender Brian Mendoza and former title challenger Carlos Ocampo. A native of Sydney, Australia, Tszyu made his U.S debut against U.S. Olympian Terrell Gausha in March 2022, earning a unanimous decision. Tszyu grew up playing soccer, but soon gravitated toward boxing. The decision led to him following in the legendary footsteps of his father, Kostya, who was an undisputed 140-pound champion.

The WBA Super Lightweight World Champion Romero will make the first defense of his world title in a 12-round matchup against the top lightweight contender Cruz, who will look to debut at 140-pounds with a championship-winning performance in the night’s co-main event.

Part of the Mayweather Promotions stable, Romero (15-1, 13 KOs) is known for his brash talk that he backs up with power in both hands as well as an exciting, unique style that makes him a must-see whenever he steps between the ropes. The 28-year-old rose to the ranks of world champion in his last outing, stopping Ismael Barroso in round nine to win the title in May. It was Romero’s first return to the ring since a May 2022 defeat against three-division champion Gervonta Davis. Prior to the Davis fight, the Las Vegas resident Romero won an interim title in August 2020 by earning a close but unanimous decision over then unbeaten Jackson Marinez.

One of the most exciting fighters in boxing, the 25-year-old Cruz (25-2-1, 17 KOs) has racked up three consecutive victories since dropping a competitive and entertaining decision against undefeated superstar Gervonta Davis in December 2021. A native of Mexico City, Cruz shot up the lightweight rankings in 2020, announcing his presence with an electrifying first-round knockout over veteran Diego Magdaleno in October before adding dominant decisions over Francisco Vargas and Jose Matias Romero. After stopping former champion Yuriorkis Gamboa in April 2022 and veteran contender Eduardo Ramirez in September 2022, Cruz returned this past July to turn away the previously unbeaten Giovanni Cabrera by decision.

Unbeaten in two fights at middleweight, Lara will defend his WBA Middleweight World Championship against the WBA’s top-rated mandatory challenger Zerafa in a 12-round attraction on the pay-per-view lineup.

Lara (29-3-3, 17 KOs) was the longest reigning 154-pound world champion before he lost a tough split-decision to Jarrett Hurd in a 2018 title unification match that earned “Fight of the Year” from the BWAA. Lara returned from that fight and battled former 154-pound world titleholder Brian Castaño to an exciting draw in another narrow fight that could have gone Lara’s way. Lara most recently moved up to middleweight, capturing his WBA title with a first round knockout of Thomas LaManna in May 2021, before KO’ing Gary O’Sullivan in May 2022. Lara faced a slew of the top 154-pounders in the sport, including Canelo Alvarez, ahead of his middleweight debut.

Melbourne, Australia’s Zerafa (31-4, 19 KOs) is long established as one of his country’s top contenders and has won four-straight to earn the title fight on March 30. Zerafa has split a pair of matchups against former champion and Australian rival Jeff Horn in addition to a first round knockout of longtime contender Anthony Mundine. The 31-year-old previously fought stateside in 2015, as he dropped a contest to former middleweight champion Peter Quillin. The veteran has also challenged former champion Kell Brook and defeated previously unbeaten fighters Danilo Creati and Isaac Hardman in his last two fights.

Already established as a must-see attraction, Fundora will return to face fellow highly ranked super welterweight Bohachuk in a 12-round fight for the vacant Interim WBC Super Welterweight Title to kick off the pay-per-view telecast.

Fundora (20-1-1, 13 KOs) rocketed to the top of the super welterweight division with a fan-friendly style and bruising toughness in the ring. His unbeaten streak came to an end in his last outing, as he got caught and was defeated by Brian Mendoza in April of last year. At nearly 6-foot-6, the 26-year-old southpaw from Coachella, Calif., towers over his opponents, but has displayed an appetite for toe-to-toe combat from short range. Fundora showed his mettle in April 2022, battling the hard-hitting Erickson Lubin in an instant 2022 Fight of the Year contender. Despite both men hitting the canvas, Fundora stood tall in the end, prompting Lubin’s corner to stop the fight at the end of the ninth round. Fundora represents a boxing family, as he is trained by his father Freddy alongside his younger sister, IBF Flyweight World Champion Gabriela.

A 28-year-old from Ukraine, Bohachuk (23-1, 23 KOs) now resides in Los Angeles, where he’s fought out of since turning pro. The 28-year-old has won five-straight outings, including 2023 stoppages of Nathaniel Gallimore and Patrick Allotey. This run has come after a defeat to Brandon Adams in March 2021 and has seen him rise back up the 154-pound rankings. He won his first 18 fights after turning pro in 2017 following an extensive amateur career.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by maverick23 »

Some good fights but PPV? Not in my opinion.

Assuming it’s priced at Showtime prices, will anyone be buying?
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

Ennis will be on this card too. Defending his IBF belt.

We gonna get a sub portion of the card then ppv.

If we getting less cards per year, they likely should be more stacked
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by maverick23 »

Ruthless-RKO wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 06:26 Ennis will be on this card too. Defending his IBF belt.

We gonna get a sub portion of the card then ppv.

If we getting less cards per year, they likely should be more stacked
Copp is implying that Ennis on there isn’t correct.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

maverick23 wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 06:40
Ruthless-RKO wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 06:26 Ennis will be on this card too. Defending his IBF belt.

We gonna get a sub portion of the card then ppv.

If we getting less cards per year, they likely should be more stacked
Copp is implying that Ennis on there isn’t correct.
I read it co-feature.. I mean it wasn't listed in the press release either.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by KiwiRider »

Releasing a young lion like Tszyu onto an old, injury prone faded guy like Thurman is just sad. It reminds me of Conor Benn vs Chris Algieri.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by gregregegg »

Ruthless-RKO wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 06:26 Ennis will be on this card too. Defending his IBF belt.

We gonna get a sub portion of the card then ppv.

If we getting less cards per year, they likely should be more stacked
Doubt it, that would be the main event if true.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by giacomino »

Perseus wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:57
gregregegg wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:41
Perseus wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:29 This fight is nothing more than cherry picking an older, smaller fighter who has name recognition but his days as a legit top fighter are long gone.

The win over Barrios has not aged well.
Since then Barrios has beat two guys who were stopped in their previous fights and neither has won a fight in nearly 3 years.
The fight win against barros has aged well to me.

Barros was coming off getting stopped by a 130lber when Thurman decisioned him. That was a bad look. But then barros went on to beat ugas, who is a good big welter who has beat Pac, probably should have beat porter, and gave Spence a decent fight.

Ugas is undeniably barroses best win (and at welter making barros feel more legit at the weight) and it came after the Thurman fight, hence why I think barros scalp looks better now than it did on the night.
Ugas did not give Spence a good fight. He gave him rounds, that's it.
Ugas happened to be the opponent when 40-something Pac showed the world he doesn't belong in the ring anymore......... two years after the Thurman fight.
The Barrios scalp didn't look good then and it still doesn't.
If giving a late 30s fighter his 6th loss is your best win............you're not very good.

.....and Thurman has all of one win and two fights in the last 5 years.
Yeah, that's not a cherry pick at all :roll:
Fans always try to justify these kind of cherry-pick fights but it’s not the worst fight for Tsyzu if he goes on to take on legit top opposition at 154 or 160. The proof will be in who he fights next, IMO.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by KiwiRider »

giacomino wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 19:33
Perseus wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:57
gregregegg wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:41

The fight win against barros has aged well to me.

Barros was coming off getting stopped by a 130lber when Thurman decisioned him. That was a bad look. But then barros went on to beat ugas, who is a good big welter who has beat Pac, probably should have beat porter, and gave Spence a decent fight.

Ugas is undeniably barroses best win (and at welter making barros feel more legit at the weight) and it came after the Thurman fight, hence why I think barros scalp looks better now than it did on the night.
Ugas did not give Spence a good fight. He gave him rounds, that's it.
Ugas happened to be the opponent when 40-something Pac showed the world he doesn't belong in the ring anymore......... two years after the Thurman fight.
The Barrios scalp didn't look good then and it still doesn't.
If giving a late 30s fighter his 6th loss is your best win............you're not very good.

.....and Thurman has all of one win and two fights in the last 5 years.
Yeah, that's not a cherry pick at all :roll:
Fans always try to justify these kind of cherry-pick fights but it’s not the worst fight for Tsyzu if he goes on to take on legit top opposition at 154 or 160. The proof will be in who he fights next, IMO.
He's been in a holding pattern waiting for Charlo, for what seems like ages.
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Re: Tim Tszyu vs. Keith Thurman | PBC PPV - March 30, 2024

Post by giacomino »

KiwiRider wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 20:10
giacomino wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 19:33
Perseus wrote: 25 Jan 2024, 21:57

Ugas did not give Spence a good fight. He gave him rounds, that's it.
Ugas happened to be the opponent when 40-something Pac showed the world he doesn't belong in the ring anymore......... two years after the Thurman fight.
The Barrios scalp didn't look good then and it still doesn't.
If giving a late 30s fighter his 6th loss is your best win............you're not very good.

.....and Thurman has all of one win and two fights in the last 5 years.
Yeah, that's not a cherry pick at all :roll:
Fans always try to justify these kind of cherry-pick fights but it’s not the worst fight for Tsyzu if he goes on to take on legit top opposition at 154 or 160. The proof will be in who he fights next, IMO.
He's been in a holding pattern waiting for Charlo, for what seems like ages.
True, the Charlos have held up two divisions and who knows if they will fight anyone legit again at this point
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