how many fights a year for best development?

[margaret thatcher]

how many fights a year should world level guys or guys coming up to that level have for max development?

it was mentioned that guys aint fighting 12x a year like they used to , and that less fighting = not as good at fighting

and these days a lot of world level guys are boxing 1x a year if that. but are the hectic schedules of the past overkill?

what do you think is the right number of fights, in order to help a fighter be the best they can?

[SeanBrennan]

I think it varies. If you are Joe Joyce, or Yafai, you have experience beyond knocking over bodies. Perhaps 4/5 a year, but progressive. Also depends on the weight.

[Controversial]

I think it depends. The old timers who were having multiple fights a year were surely adding miles to the clock. In terms of fitness it was good but not good for their brain. Is a fighter learning much knocking over a load of stiffs, no. I also think at some point a fighter will reach their best level and I don’t think there’s a number of fights that happens. Lomachenko, Holyfield, De La Hoya for example were top level operators very quickly.

[leejonesjnr]

Something like this

Year 1 - 6 x 4 rounders
Year 2 - 2 x 4 rounders & 2 x 6 rounders
Year 3 - 2 x 6 rounders, 2 x 8 rounders
Year 4 and on - 2 or 3 10/12 rounders

[funso banjo baby]

A sad indictment

[maverick23]

how many fights a year should world level guys or guys coming up to that level have for max development?

it was mentioned that guys aint fighting 12x a year like they used to , and that less fighting = not as good at fighting

and these days a lot of world level guys are boxing 1x a year if that. but are the hectic schedules of the past overkill?

what do you think is the right number of fights, in order to help a fighter be the best they can?

I have this debate with one of my friends re: activity.

Unless they’re in the first year of their career, guys obviously shouldn’t be fighting 10+ times per year.

However fighters at all levels need to be more active than they are now. Probably the 2 biggest stars of the sport in the last 30 years had much more activity.

In the year Oscar De La Hoya first won a world title he fought 5 times. The year after he fought 4 times. Great for his development as a fighter but it’s easy to get excited by someone you see fight every few months.

Floyd fought 7 times in the year he first won a world title and 3 times the year after that. Again it helped people get excited about watching him.

Now we get a lot of guys (from the elite to the standard world champs to contenders) who don’t fight in a year, fight once or perhaps twice and it’s impacting the sport. Very difficult to build hype or a fan base when you fight once a year.

Part of the issue is that it’s a more competitive market than it once was so fighters are being paid far more than their commercial worth. Teofimo Lopez sells 4,500 tickets in New York and doesn’t bring in big numbers on ESPN yet wants many millions of dollars a fight. Top Rank pay it but they can’t do that 3/4 times a year so he’s inactive. Similar with the PBC guys.

The real stars of the sport should be fighting at least twice a year. If it is twice a year then they need to be real credible opponents. The other world champs should be 3/4 times a year to build excitement for when they have a PPV worthy fight.

All other levels of fighter should be out at least 4 times. 6 times if they’re in they’re in the first 2 years after turning over.

[stujones]

Depends on the weight, your fighting style and your training as well as the personality of the fighter.

If you are a young, nervous guy who needs to get used to the bright lights and pressure - then its best to build confidence behind closed doors.

[Controversial]

Did Mike Tyson learn much flattening his first 15 opponents? Maybe in terms of building confidence, being on TV and being interviewed I guess he did but boxing wise he probably had harder spars.

[maverick23]

Did Mike Tyson learn much flattening his first 15 opponents? Maybe in terms of building confidence, being on TV and being interviewed I guess he did but boxing wise he probably had harder spars.

He fought 14-1 Jesse Ferguson at the end of his first year. Him fighting consistently and quickly also built momentum and excitement.

He might not have learnt much but he would have fought and flattened guys of different styles and sizes too. All helps.

Whilst in the U.K. we’ve now got Ben Whittaker who in a few weeks will be in his 6th fight in 20 months since turning pro (after being an elite amateur) fighting a 41 year old journeyman with a 10-13-5 record.

[SeanBrennan]

Did Mike Tyson learn much flattening his first 15 opponents? Maybe in terms of building confidence, being on TV and being interviewed I guess he did but boxing wise he probably had harder spars.

He fought 14-1 Jesse Ferguson at the end of his first year. Him fighting consistently and quickly also built momentum and excitement.

He might not have learnt much but he would have fought and flattened guys of different styles and sizes too. All helps.

Whilst in the U.K. we’ve now got Ben Whittaker who in a few weeks will be in his 6th fight in 20 months since turning pro (after being an elite amateur) fighting a 41 year old journeyman with a 10-13-5 record.

good point, and 9 of his 15 first opponents had winning records (and one had an even record). That's some going for a teenager who was never the biggest. He looked like a child against Sammy Scaff (until the bell went)...

[Controversial]

Did Mike Tyson learn much flattening his first 15 opponents? Maybe in terms of building confidence, being on TV and being interviewed I guess he did but boxing wise he probably had harder spars.

He fought 14-1 Jesse Ferguson at the end of his first year. Him fighting consistently and quickly also built momentum and excitement.

He might not have learnt much but he would have fought and flattened guys of different styles and sizes too. All helps.

Whilst in the U.K. we’ve now got Ben Whittaker who in a few weeks will be in his 6th fight in 20 months since turning pro (after being an elite amateur) fighting a 41 year old journeyman with a 10-13-5 record.

Yeah of course it all helps, I meant in terms of flattening someone with one punch in the 1st round isn't really improving his skill level. Quality sparring more helpful. Everyone is different, amateur background obviously helps as well. I think the issue today is fighters don't want to lose. The unbeaten record is over emphasised, in previous generations losing wasn't seen as such a big thing. So now people seem to be carefully managed until they get a big fight.

[SeanBrennan]

why are they moving Ben so slowly? He has real talent and a solid am pedigree. I wonder if he wants moving quicker but it's the team around him proceeding with caution. It's why I like Galal, 6 fights, 5 title fights (albeit not world) and no real knockovers, all with winning records. It's led him to top 20 ranking on Boxrec already, after fighting someone who has won British and CQWQ title, and another who has fought for WBC full title. Might be linked to different promoters having either. Sky seem nervy re putting their people in with anyone (Ben, Frazer). I don't know though.

[Controversial]

why are they moving Ben so slowly? He has real talent and a solid am pedigree. I wonder if he wants moving quicker but it's the team around him proceeding with caution. It's why I like Galal, 6 fights, 5 title fights (albeit not world) and no real knockovers, all with winning records. It's led him to top 20 ranking on Boxrec already, after fighting someone who has won British and CQWQ title, and another who has fought for WBC full title. Might be linked to different promoters having either. Sky seem nervy re putting their people in with anyone (Ben, Frazer). I don't know though.

I seem to recall the last time I saw him on TV that he'd been out for a while with an injury

[SeanBrennan]

why are they moving Ben so slowly? He has real talent and a solid am pedigree. I wonder if he wants moving quicker but it's the team around him proceeding with caution. It's why I like Galal, 6 fights, 5 title fights (albeit not world) and no real knockovers, all with winning records. It's led him to top 20 ranking on Boxrec already, after fighting someone who has won British and CQWQ title, and another who has fought for WBC full title. Might be linked to different promoters having either. Sky seem nervy re putting their people in with anyone (Ben, Frazer). I don't know though.

I seem to recall the last time I saw him on TV that he'd been out for a while with an injury

you're right, forgot that. Shoulder, was meant to be out for longer. Good call.

[Flump]

As others have said it depends on levels, but I like to see a first year pro out say 8 times. I also don't like 4 rounders, if you can do four you can do six. At least half a dozen 6 rounders, step up to eight for the following year, say 6-8 bouts. By year 3, you should know roughly what you have in terms of stepping up the levels.

A world level fighter should still be out 3-4 times a year IMO.

[maverick23]

Did Mike Tyson learn much flattening his first 15 opponents? Maybe in terms of building confidence, being on TV and being interviewed I guess he did but boxing wise he probably had harder spars.

He fought 14-1 Jesse Ferguson at the end of his first year. Him fighting consistently and quickly also built momentum and excitement.

He might not have learnt much but he would have fought and flattened guys of different styles and sizes too. All helps.

Whilst in the U.K. we’ve now got Ben Whittaker who in a few weeks will be in his 6th fight in 20 months since turning pro (after being an elite amateur) fighting a 41 year old journeyman with a 10-13-5 record.

Yeah of course it all helps, I meant in terms of flattening someone with one punch in the 1st round isn't really improving his skill level. Quality sparring more helpful. Everyone is different, amateur background obviously helps as well. I think the issue today is fighters don't want to lose. The unbeaten record is over emphasised, in previous generations losing wasn't seen as such a big thing. So now people seem to be carefully managed until they get a big fight.

Yeah. The 0 is way too important to a lot of fighters/promoters.

Guys turning over now are getting far better paid too. I saw a video of Adam Azim in a Lamborghini or something before his last fight. He’s a decent prospect but I’d be surprised if Tyson got much at all for his first 10 fights.

As I said before fighters are getting paid far too much per fight which means we he promoters can’t get them out frequently enough and there may also not be much left over to pay for quality opponents.

Sadly I think for boxing to get going again it needs an economic overhaul. Take Beterbiev/Smith. Excellent fight. The purse for that fight on its own was $2.1m. Callum Smith got $570k and the show averaged 599k viewers on ESPN. The recent UFC prelims had TOTAL purses (before any bonuses) for 4 fights on the prelims of $460k and the show averaged 1.03m viewers.

It will be no surprise to me if ESPN increase their budget for UFC/PFL and decrease their budget for boxing.

Everyone involved in the sport needs to be more realistic and pay what people are actually worth rather trying to get one up on the competition.

[Controversial]

He fought 14-1 Jesse Ferguson at the end of his first year. Him fighting consistently and quickly also built momentum and excitement.

He might not have learnt much but he would have fought and flattened guys of different styles and sizes too. All helps.

Whilst in the U.K. we’ve now got Ben Whittaker who in a few weeks will be in his 6th fight in 20 months since turning pro (after being an elite amateur) fighting a 41 year old journeyman with a 10-13-5 record.

Yeah of course it all helps, I meant in terms of flattening someone with one punch in the 1st round isn't really improving his skill level. Quality sparring more helpful. Everyone is different, amateur background obviously helps as well. I think the issue today is fighters don't want to lose. The unbeaten record is over emphasised, in previous generations losing wasn't seen as such a big thing. So now people seem to be carefully managed until they get a big fight.

Everyone involved in the sport needs to be more realistic and pay what people are actually worth rather trying to get one up on the competition.

I saw a post on Twitter the other day from some woman called Astrid Wett who was a misfits 'boxer' saying she's no longer fighting as she was paid £12,000 for her last fight but her training fees were £15,000

I just googled her and she's had two fights, not even pro boxing. £15,000 training camp. WTF



.

[SeanBrennan]

Yeah of course it all helps, I meant in terms of flattening someone with one punch in the 1st round isn't really improving his skill level. Quality sparring more helpful. Everyone is different, amateur background obviously helps as well. I think the issue today is fighters don't want to lose. The unbeaten record is over emphasised, in previous generations losing wasn't seen as such a big thing. So now people seem to be carefully managed until they get a big fight.

Everyone involved in the sport needs to be more realistic and pay what people are actually worth rather trying to get one up on the competition.

I saw a post on Twitter the other day from some woman called Astrid Wett who was a misfits 'boxer' saying she's no longer fighting as she was paid £12,000 for her last fight and her training fees were £15,000

I just googled her and she's had two fights, no even pro boxing. £15,000 training camp. WTF

blimey. She was overpaid by 12k, I'm sad enough to have watched it.

[SeanBrennan]

As others have said it depends on levels, but I like to see a first year pro out say 8 times. I also don't like 4 rounders, if you can do four you can do six. At least half a dozen 6 rounders, step up to eight for the following year, say 6-8 bouts. By year 3, you should know roughly what you have in terms of stepping up the levels.

A world level fighter should still be out 3-4 times a year IMO.

surely if you can do 4, you can't necessarily do 6 rounds.

[SeanBrennan]

He fought 14-1 Jesse Ferguson at the end of his first year. Him fighting consistently and quickly also built momentum and excitement.

He might not have learnt much but he would have fought and flattened guys of different styles and sizes too. All helps.

Whilst in the U.K. we’ve now got Ben Whittaker who in a few weeks will be in his 6th fight in 20 months since turning pro (after being an elite amateur) fighting a 41 year old journeyman with a 10-13-5 record.

Yeah of course it all helps, I meant in terms of flattening someone with one punch in the 1st round isn't really improving his skill level. Quality sparring more helpful. Everyone is different, amateur background obviously helps as well. I think the issue today is fighters don't want to lose. The unbeaten record is over emphasised, in previous generations losing wasn't seen as such a big thing. So now people seem to be carefully managed until they get a big fight.

Yeah. The 0 is way too important to a lot of fighters/promoters.

Guys turning over now are getting far better paid too. I saw a video of Adam Azim in a Lamborghini or something before his last fight. He’s a decent prospect but I’d be surprised if Tyson got much at all for his first 10 fights.

As I said before fighters are getting paid far too much per fight which means we he promoters can’t get them out frequently enough and there may also not be much left over to pay for quality opponents.

Sadly I think for boxing to get going again it needs an economic overhaul. Take Beterbiev/Smith. Excellent fight. The purse for that fight on its own was $2.1m. Callum Smith got $570k and the show averaged 599k viewers on ESPN. The recent UFC prelims had TOTAL purses (before any bonuses) for 4 fights on the prelims of $460k and the show averaged 1.03m viewers.

It will be no surprise to me if ESPN increase their budget for UFC/PFL and decrease their budget for boxing.

Everyone involved in the sport needs to be more realistic and pay what people are actually worth rather trying to get one up on the competition.

I know it's my naivety but I'd have thought Smith got 7 figs for the fight. I think I have a rosey view of what they earn.

[gregregegg]

If your young and If you have the backing to flatten 10 people a year you should for 2 years…. You have just brought the ultimently record buffer and in 10 years if your taking some losses you will still have a credible record at a glance… won’t learn tons, but will still be training and sparring ect.

I’d say basic aims would be;

Year 1: 8x4 rounders

Year 2: 6x6 rounders

Year 3: 4x8 rounders

Year 4: 3x 10 rounders/minor titles.

Note:if you are not a heavyweight do not make weight for all of those fights. Weight cutting is brutal on the body, only try do that twice a year for practice. (So mostly 2 guys that can make 140 agree to fight at 155 no weight cut type thing)

Note: add fights if you are getting early stoppages with no damage. Take off fights if your in wars…
Example, if your year 4 and chin a guy in round 1/10 3 times you should be fighting more. If your year 3 and have 3 8 round wars might not need a 4th that year…

[SeanBrennan]

If your young and If you have the backing to flatten 10 people a year you should for 2 years…. You have just brought the ultimently record buffer and in 10 years if your taking some losses you will still have a credible record at a glance… won’t learn tons, but will still be training and sparring ect.

I’d say basic aims would be;

Year 1: 8x4 rounders

Year 2: 6x6 rounders

Year 3: 4x8 rounders

Year 4: 3x 10 rounders/minor titles.

Note:if you are not a heavyweight do not make weight for all of those fights. Weight cutting is brutal on the body, only try do that twice a year for practice. (So mostly 2 guys that can make 140 agree to fight at 155 no weight cut type thing)

Note: add fights if you are getting early stoppages with no damage. Take off fights if your in wars…
Example, if your year 4 and chin a guy in round 1/10 3 times you should be fighting more. If your year 3 and have 3 8 round wars might not need a 4th that year…

really sensible post - ban Greg.

[gregregegg]

If your young and If you have the backing to flatten 10 people a year you should for 2 years…. You have just brought the ultimently record buffer and in 10 years if your taking some losses you will still have a credible record at a glance… won’t learn tons, but will still be training and sparring ect.

I’d say basic aims would be;

Year 1: 8x4 rounders

Year 2: 6x6 rounders

Year 3: 4x8 rounders

Year 4: 3x 10 rounders/minor titles.

Note:if you are not a heavyweight do not make weight for all of those fights. Weight cutting is brutal on the body, only try do that twice a year for practice. (So mostly 2 guys that can make 140 agree to fight at 155 no weight cut type thing)

Note: add fights if you are getting early stoppages with no damage. Take off fights if your in wars…
Example, if your year 4 and chin a guy in round 1/10 3 times you should be fighting more. If your year 3 and have 3 8 round wars might not need a 4th that year…

really sensible post - ban Greg.

Sorry let me change my answer. 77 fights year one. Then one fight every 4 years till your 58.

[joshj909]

The things that you have to consider are development, damage absorbed/injuries, weight cuts and exhaustion from overtraining in camps over a prolonged period of time.

If you get some early KO's there's nothing stopping you from taking another fight to get some rounds in. But if you go 10/12 rounds and maybe take damage along the way then you need rest. Being in camp for the best part of 12 months in a row won't be good for your body or mind either.

At world level then 3/4 should be fine depending on the above. If you're still trying to earn a title shot or something similar then 5 would get you the recognition quickly (if you're good enough to win them all pretty comfortably). If you have bundles of amateur experience or are a highly touted prospect already and you just need rounds against journeymen then there's no reason you can't be fighting 7+.

[margaret thatcher]

what do we think of old-timer schedules of sometimes double digit fights or close to it a year? at a high level?

more practice = more improvement? or was that overkill