Is Vitali Klitschko an all-time great?

[The Great John L]

I am not a fan of Vitali in particular. But I believe him to be a better heavyweight than Chris Byrd.
Is that clarity enough?

It's an opinion.

If you could only follow up with
.............'and you are entitled to it',
you would have restored my faith in humanity.

I didn’t think anyone would really need to hear that they are entitled to their own opinion, but if your life is empty without hearing that then….

You are entitled to your own opinion.

Do you feel better now?

[DonCorleone]

It's an opinion.

If you could only follow up with
.............'and you are entitled to it',
you would have restored my faith in humanity.

I didn’t think anyone would really need to hear that they are entitled to their own opinion, but if your life is empty without hearing that then….

You are entitled to your own opinion.

Do you feel better now?

Thanks. My life is far from empty, but I feel better knowing that you accept freedom of thought.
By the way, Tantum, up above, made a much more meaningful post on the subject. Why don't you answer that?

[The Great John L]

Besides beating David Tua, and two injured fighters... Who did Chris Byrd ever beat?

A better question would be, why didn’t Vitali ever fight Tua? Or Holyfield, Rahman, Ike, etc.? These guys were all there for Vitali to fight, but he didn’t do it. Byrd fought everybody. He struggled in some fights, lost some, won some questionable ones, but at least he fought the best.

Why do Vitali supporters keep changing the subject? The question that I have posed, several times that VK supporters completely ignore, is:

Who did Vitali beat to establish him as “clearly the best HW” after Lewis retired?

Stick to the question and provide some defense rather than changing the subject to avoid embarrassment.

[dempseyfire]

Besides beating David Tua, and two injured fighters... Who did Chris Byrd ever beat?


Highly disputed decision with Oquendo...

Draw with Golota...

Split decision with McCline...

One of the most pathetic fights in the history of boxing against Williamson.

Got the shit beat out of him twice by Wladimir, and once by Ibeabuchi.


The guys that Byrd struggled with from 2003-2005 are no better than the 4 guys that Vitali smoked from Donald to Williams.

I think the reason why many people think that "Vitali is clearly the best of a bad bunch" is because he dominated those 4 men while Byrd struggled to death with similar competition.

You can't assess a fighter on his record alone, and even if you did...

Byrd got his ass handed to him 3 times by similar competition that Vitali quit due to injuries, but was holding his own against.

Not sure how anyone can see that as being superior, in any way.

Vitali showed more promise(by dominating his opponents) than Byrd or Ruiz, which is why he gets more praise.

No reason to trash him because of it.(the "praise")

If Chris Byrd had retired after the 11th round against Wladimir, no one here would be knocking him for it until the end of time.

Williams, Sanders, and Johnson are equal to McCline, Golota, and Tua? No way. Would Klitschko have dominated Golota like he did Williams? I think far from it.

Byrd had close fight with Golota and McCline but to the objective eye he won both fights. Oquendo was a bad decision but also a horribly ugly and foul-ridden contest.

[The Great John L]

Thanks. My life is far from empty, but I feel better knowing that you accept freedom of thought.
By the way, Tantum, up above, made a much more meaningful post on the subject. Why don't you answer that?

I did, but I'm sure he'll avoid the question that I've asked repeatedly just like all others who hang on the ill-reasoned belief that somehow Vitali earned recognition as “clearly the best HW in the world” at ANY point in his career.

And I haven’t heard you attempt to answer the question of who exactly VK beat that established him as “clearly the best HW in the world” after Lewis retired?

Are you up to the challenge Godfather?

[DonCorleone]

The answer to your question is no-one. On the other hand, boxing, as you know, is not necessarily a beats b beats c, therefore a beats c.
I am not disputing that Vitali's legacy suffers coz of this, i have already said that he is nowhere near ATG.
But Vk was, in my eyes, the best heavyweight around after LL retired. I cannot see any of the leading heavyweight contenders of the day giving Lewis as many problems as Vitaly did, and.....................
whats the point? How many times? It's not even that big an issue. Are you (honestly now) trying genuinely to fathom why I hold this opinion, or are you just another determined to see that every shred of respect for VK is snuffed out?
Maybe he didn't beat any one guy, I just think he was better than the rest, which is not saying much, I admit.

[Seamus]

Vitali is definitely not an all time great. But one obsevation I've made is that his haters are alot more over the top than his fans. In the end, he just doesn't have enough wins over name fighters to be considered great, BUT another point I didn't notice anyone mention yet is, say what you want about who would have won in his bout with Lennox Lewis, but afterwards, despite all the smack he talked, it was Lennox Lewis who wasn't up for a rematch. Really no disgrace there, Lewis would have been 38, and every fighter no how good he may be, has to walk away at some point. That maybe with the fact that VK took his best shots and came back to wobble him twice. made retirement look alot more pleasant. LL was an excellent fighter though.

[pundit]

Besides beating David Tua, and two injured fighters... Who did Chris Byrd ever beat?

A better question would be, why didn’t Vitali ever fight Tua? Or Holyfield, Rahman, Ike, etc.? These guys were all there for Vitali to fight, but he didn’t do it. Byrd fought everybody. He struggled in some fights, lost some, won some questionable ones, but at least he fought the best.

Why do Vitali supporters keep changing the subject? The question that I have posed, several times that VK supporters completely ignore, is:

Who did Vitali beat to establish him as “clearly the best HW” after Lewis retired?

I guess this is because the question is posted wrongly. Lewis was untouchable in the heavyweight division for many years, and there comes Vitali, gives him a hell of a fight on at least equal terms for 6 rounds, and gets stopped only on cuts. This one fight, win or loss is -- at least in my book -- far more impressive than anything Ruiz and Byrd have done in their entire careers combined. It established Vitali as the only guy in the heavyweight division far and wide who could stand up to Lennox Lewis.

Thus, when Lewis retired and Vitali took his belt, he naturally took over as the #1. Sure, his defenses were not that exillarating, but at least he domianted his opponents (neither Byrd nor Ruiz did, agasint comparable opposition), so Vitali stayed at #1. Until he retired.

P

[Tantum]

Williams, Sanders, and Johnson are equal to McCline, Golota, and Tua? No way. Would Klitschko have dominated Golota like he did Williams? I think far from it.

I said Byrd's competition from 2003-2005, that does not include Tua, Ibeabuchi, or the Klitschkos.

And considering how badly Golota's been dominated in the past, yes I think it's quite possible Vitali would have dominated him.

[Tantum]

A better question would be, why didn’t Vitali ever fight Tua? Or Holyfield, Rahman, Ike, etc.? These guys were all there for Vitali to fight, but he didn’t do it. Byrd fought everybody. He struggled in some fights, lost some, won some questionable ones, but at least he fought the best.

Why do Vitali supporters keep changing the subject? The question that I have posed, several times that VK supporters completely ignore, is:

Who did Vitali beat to establish him as “clearly the best HW” after Lewis retired?

Stick to the question and provide some defense rather than changing the subject to avoid embarrassment.

Why didn't Byrd fight Rahman, or Lewis, or Brewster, or Ruiz? They were all there, he musta sucked if he didn't fight them, right?

What kind of a retarded argument is that?

On another note, when did I say Vitali was clearly the best...? I was just trying to say in so many words that haven't been said, why some of these people might think so.

While I think none of them were "far superior"(or at all) to each other... Saying Vitali was the "best" is more justifiable than saying Chris Byrd was the best.

And the people who are here saying that Vitali was slightly above the rest are showing FAR LESS bias than the people crying out with this quitter shit.

I understand why people get mad when people make rediculous claims about a fighter... Such as Margarito...(OH MY GAWD, HE'S SO FEARED!! RUN MAYWEATHER RUN!!)

No one here is making such claims about Vitali.

[barry]

>>>Actually, all hell breaks loose when someone suggests that Vitali actually lost to Byrd and Lewis, or that he wasn't the best heavyweight after Lewis retired.<<<

The plain and simple truth! And the reason I locked the threads was because they had turned into nothing but an insult fest and it was wasting space...and I would do the same with any other thread...but I wasn't the only person who locked threads!

Also, Corleone...I don't know what you think you proved by posting the statments that I previously made...it was nothing but the truth and if you consider it insulting then you haven't been watching boxing long enough...if a fighter is winnning a bout, he doesn't quit in the final couple of rounds to an opponent that is supposed to be inferior to him, but therein lies the kicker...Bryd never was inferior to VK...he was the bettert heavyweight and the better man and he proved it in the ring...Byrd showed what it takes to be a champion and he has went out like a warrior...VK quit like someones little sister and demonstrated what it is like to not have heart...you can call it insults...I prefer to stay a little grounded in reality, so I call it FACT!!!! Or as Dec states...maybe quitter is not fair except for one fight...the rest would be "Vitali---The Duck Man"

[pundit]

The plain and simple truth! And the reason I locked the threads was because they had turned into nothing but an insult fest and it was wasting space...

Ah, that's why you locked it!

[barry]

No actually I locked it because certain people don't have sense enough to understand FACT from fiction and choose to argue about fantasy...that's the real reason!

[pundit]

Also, Corleone...I don't know what you think you proved by posting the statments that I previously made...it was nothing but the truth and if you consider it insulting then you haven't been watching boxing long enough...

I found this one partiulalry illuminating:

As was said, the poll was a joke to start will as you left out the actual true answer, but that kind of behavior is typical of someone who knows little about boxing and who is overly infatuates with the certain fighter of your desires...hell anyone with any actual knowledge and integrity knows that there were no champion and that the claim of best heavyweight went to Byrd due to the simple fact that he kicked Vitali's ass...made the big man quit like a little girl...and to beat it all, you come on here and say that you love being a Quitschko nut-hugger...are you a Klistchko pole-smoker as well? Actually, that might be an incorrect-type of statement because based on the FACT that Vitali quit so easily...the actual truth of the matter may very well be this...Vitali might always sit down to pee!

Etc. etc.. A prime example of cool, composed, civilized, mature, and of course totally unbiased arguing.

[pundit]

No actually I locked it because certain people don't have sense enough to understand FACT from fiction and choose to argue about fantasy...that's the real reason!

Ah -- does it say somewhere that this is a legit reason to lock a thread?

[barry]

LOL....I'm glad that you have taken the time to go back through the threads wasting time...what do you think you are going to prove...that I am a bad person...LOL?

Even if I called Klitschko and pole-smoking, fight-ducking quitter, which is 2/3 proven fact, you are not going to change it...LOL

[pundit]

LOL....I'm glad that you have taken the time to go back through the threads wasting time...what do you think you are going to prove...that I am a bad person...LOL?

Barry, to be serious for a moment: I know you're not a bad person. What I learned about you in the past month has changed my view of you for good.

You have a tendency though to lose it a bit at times -- but I believe I know better now how to take this.

Even if I called Klitschko and pole-smoking, fight-ducking quitter, which is 2/3 proven fact, you are not going to change it...LOL

I'm definitely having fun here!
Why don't you continue to slam away.

Cheers, P

[Tantum]

Even if I called Klitschko a pole-smoking, fight-ducking quitter, which is 2/3 proven fact

100% fact in Tyson's case.

[The Great John L]

What kind of a retarded argument is that?

Where did I ever resort to any type of immature attack such as this? Is this type of statement an indication of your emotional level? I asked simple questions -- repeatedly. I think you've clearly established who has a mental deficiency in this argument.

[pundit]

What kind of a retarded argument is that?

Where did I ever resort to any type of immature attack such as this?

Oh, I've seen them plentiful times in your posts.

[barry]

>>>100% fact in Tyson's case.<<<

Glad that you mentioned it...otherwise Silov might have a fit...and look Sil...Tantum is American!

[barry]

Pundit---I was wondering what the the hell has he learned about me in the past month and I just noticed that you had sent me a PM during the last month that I had responded to...now I feel bad!

[pundit]

Pundit---I was wondering what the the hell has he learned about me in the past month and I just noticed that you had sent me a PM during the last month that I had responded to...now I feel bad!

What about?
We're cool buddy, at least as far as I am concerned.

P

[silkov]

>>>100% fact in Tyson's case.<<<

Glad that you mentioned it...otherwise Silov might have a fit...and look Sil...Tantum is American!

Its silkov actually, as for fits, that seems to be your department...

[barry]

silky you mean.