Dana White

[Fray Bentos]

How can he do it though? Boxing promotion in the US is a massively competitive market for the top fighters whilst the UFC have built a great brand which they’d struggle to take advantage of with boxing and are notorious for paying fighters less than they probably should.

The one thing boxing is missing is competitive fights all around the board - if he could hold cards where all the fights were competitive - from six rounders to the main event - then people would pay good money to watch them, think of these 'misfits' fights, they sell out arenas AND get PPV because they're competitive even though the skill level isn't very good and sometimes it's atrocious but because they're usually well matched, people will pay to watch it. All people want to see is a good, honest scrap between two evenly matched fighters.

He might not be able to start at the very top but he is a known brand and I would like to see him try, I have a hunch a lot of top class boxers like it how it is at the moment - they can duck fighters, pick and choose etc - it would be nice for him to come in and shake it up, it needs shaking up, it really does.

I agree that boxing could do with being shaken up but I disagree with your example of Misfits. People don’t watch and pay PPV because it’s competitive fights. They watch and pay because they’re personalities they want to see fight.

Fighters would join Dana if he’s going to pay them more than their current promoter. However it’s hard to make the numbers stack when they don’t even work currently with Top Rank/ESPN and Dana is notorious for paying fighters below their commercial worth whilst in the last 10 years boxers, at the top level, have often been paid far more than their commercial worth.

Unless Dana/TKO is willing to buy out all the main sanctioning bodies, I think any move into boxing will be at a low level with competitive fights. I can’t see him going after any world champions because it’s seemingly not in his nature to make losses on fighters.

He also may not be bothered with boxing. UFC in 2023 made $1.3bn revenue and $755m EBITDA (their measure of profit). Boxing would be more of a headache for him I think.

I disagree that people pay because of marquee value of certain personalities - if Misfits/internet personality boxing were 60-54 fights that involved one of the boxers covering up and 'messing about' then it wouldn't have lasted long and people wouldn't certainly pay good money to watch it - the reason it has took off is because the fights are competitive and it's successful because it's offering something mainstream boxing isn't offering and that's competitive fights throughout the board - it has been going on too long where top ranked boxers have ducked/ducking each other but going back to Misfits and other types of influencer boxing - it's so successful that legitimate world boxing champions like Maris Bredis are calling out Jake Paul! Which is a joke but people wouldn't tune in and pay that money if they were like the undercards of most British shows, boring, one sided fights - how many times have people on here complained of crap undercards with boring one sided fights of 'flying machines' fighting journeymen?

Well, Dana is going to have to throw incentives to fighters and organisations to get them board but it has happened before - Barry Hearn went from snooker to boxing and when he had Eubank was one of the biggest British promoters in the late eighties and early nineties, he won't start at the top but White is more than capable of getting near the top within a few years, it took Barry Hearn a few years - no more than that.

[maverick23]

The one thing boxing is missing is competitive fights all around the board - if he could hold cards where all the fights were competitive - from six rounders to the main event - then people would pay good money to watch them, think of these 'misfits' fights, they sell out arenas AND get PPV because they're competitive even though the skill level isn't very good and sometimes it's atrocious but because they're usually well matched, people will pay to watch it. All people want to see is a good, honest scrap between two evenly matched fighters.

He might not be able to start at the very top but he is a known brand and I would like to see him try, I have a hunch a lot of top class boxers like it how it is at the moment - they can duck fighters, pick and choose etc - it would be nice for him to come in and shake it up, it needs shaking up, it really does.

I agree that boxing could do with being shaken up but I disagree with your example of Misfits. People don’t watch and pay PPV because it’s competitive fights. They watch and pay because they’re personalities they want to see fight.

Fighters would join Dana if he’s going to pay them more than their current promoter. However it’s hard to make the numbers stack when they don’t even work currently with Top Rank/ESPN and Dana is notorious for paying fighters below their commercial worth whilst in the last 10 years boxers, at the top level, have often been paid far more than their commercial worth.

Unless Dana/TKO is willing to buy out all the main sanctioning bodies, I think any move into boxing will be at a low level with competitive fights. I can’t see him going after any world champions because it’s seemingly not in his nature to make losses on fighters.

He also may not be bothered with boxing. UFC in 2023 made $1.3bn revenue and $755m EBITDA (their measure of profit). Boxing would be more of a headache for him I think.

I disagree that people pay because of marquee value of certain personalities - if Misfits/internet personality boxing were 60-54 fights that involved one of the boxers covering up and 'messing about' then it wouldn't have lasted long and people wouldn't certainly pay good money to watch it - the reason it has took off is because the fights are competitive and it's successful because it's offering something mainstream boxing isn't offering and that's competitive fights throughout the board - it has been going on too long where top ranked boxers have ducked/ducking each other but going back to Misfits and other types of influencer boxing - it's so successful that legitimate world boxing champions like Maris Bredis are calling out Jake Paul! Which is a joke but people wouldn't tune in and pay that money if they were like the undercards of most British shows, boring, one sided fights - how many times have people on here complained of crap undercards with boring one sided fights of 'flying machines' fighting journeymen?

Well, Dana is going to have to throw incentives to fighters and organisations to get them board but it has happened before - Barry Hearn went from snooker to boxing and when he had Eubank was one of the biggest British promoters in the late eighties and early nineties, he won't start at the top but White is more than capable of getting near the top within a few years, it took Barry Hearn a few years - no more than that.

If that was the case re: Misfits then all shows would be big and on PPV. The sole reason the ones involving KSI/Logan Paul/Jake Paul sell so much is because of how big names they are. Not because of a competitive undercard.

The last Misfits show of 2023 was at York Hall as an example whilst the first one this year sold a couple of thousand max at the Leeds Arena.

They market themselves well and build intrigue to their fights. Something that a lot of boxers don’t do.

Barry Hearn got into boxing to make money and he did from his very first show and he was able to go straight into big fights (Bruno/Bugner at White Hart Lane). It’s unlikely Dana will be able to do both if he jumped into boxing properly.

[Fray Bentos]

I agree that boxing could do with being shaken up but I disagree with your example of Misfits. People don’t watch and pay PPV because it’s competitive fights. They watch and pay because they’re personalities they want to see fight.

Fighters would join Dana if he’s going to pay them more than their current promoter. However it’s hard to make the numbers stack when they don’t even work currently with Top Rank/ESPN and Dana is notorious for paying fighters below their commercial worth whilst in the last 10 years boxers, at the top level, have often been paid far more than their commercial worth.

Unless Dana/TKO is willing to buy out all the main sanctioning bodies, I think any move into boxing will be at a low level with competitive fights. I can’t see him going after any world champions because it’s seemingly not in his nature to make losses on fighters.

He also may not be bothered with boxing. UFC in 2023 made $1.3bn revenue and $755m EBITDA (their measure of profit). Boxing would be more of a headache for him I think.

I disagree that people pay because of marquee value of certain personalities - if Misfits/internet personality boxing were 60-54 fights that involved one of the boxers covering up and 'messing about' then it wouldn't have lasted long and people wouldn't certainly pay good money to watch it - the reason it has took off is because the fights are competitive and it's successful because it's offering something mainstream boxing isn't offering and that's competitive fights throughout the board - it has been going on too long where top ranked boxers have ducked/ducking each other but going back to Misfits and other types of influencer boxing - it's so successful that legitimate world boxing champions like Maris Bredis are calling out Jake Paul! Which is a joke but people wouldn't tune in and pay that money if they were like the undercards of most British shows, boring, one sided fights - how many times have people on here complained of crap undercards with boring one sided fights of 'flying machines' fighting journeymen?

Well, Dana is going to have to throw incentives to fighters and organisations to get them board but it has happened before - Barry Hearn went from snooker to boxing and when he had Eubank was one of the biggest British promoters in the late eighties and early nineties, he won't start at the top but White is more than capable of getting near the top within a few years, it took Barry Hearn a few years - no more than that.

If that was the case re: Misfits then all shows would be big and on PPV. The sole reason the ones involving KSI/Logan Paul/Jake Paul sell so much is because of how big names they are. Not because of a competitive undercard.

The last Misfits show of 2023 was at York Hall as an example whilst the first one this year sold a couple of thousand max at the Leeds Arena.

They market themselves well and build intrigue to their fights. Something that a lot of boxers don’t do.

Barry Hearn got into boxing to make money and he did from his very first show and he was able to go straight into big fights (Bruno/Bugner at White Hart Lane). It’s unlikely Dana will be able to do both if he jumped into boxing properly.

Of course not all Misfits/influencer fights are PPV but how many have been PPV and how many cards have they had since the beginning? It is a very high percentage and of course if they weren't competitive to their level, nobody would watch, simple.

Well, there you go, Barry Hearn crossed over from snooker into boxing and didn't straight away challenge Warren and the cartel but he was soon up there and yes, his first boxing promotion was Bruno vs Bugner - were you around then at that time? In those days - it was the cartel and they had everything sewn up - ask some of the old timers, Warren had a hell of a job getting his foot into the door because the cartel did everything in their power to stop him and it was the breakthrough of Warren that helped others come through... there is no reason why Dana White shouldn't make a go of it if he is smart about it.

[maverick23]

I disagree that people pay because of marquee value of certain personalities - if Misfits/internet personality boxing were 60-54 fights that involved one of the boxers covering up and 'messing about' then it wouldn't have lasted long and people wouldn't certainly pay good money to watch it - the reason it has took off is because the fights are competitive and it's successful because it's offering something mainstream boxing isn't offering and that's competitive fights throughout the board - it has been going on too long where top ranked boxers have ducked/ducking each other but going back to Misfits and other types of influencer boxing - it's so successful that legitimate world boxing champions like Maris Bredis are calling out Jake Paul! Which is a joke but people wouldn't tune in and pay that money if they were like the undercards of most British shows, boring, one sided fights - how many times have people on here complained of crap undercards with boring one sided fights of 'flying machines' fighting journeymen?

Well, Dana is going to have to throw incentives to fighters and organisations to get them board but it has happened before - Barry Hearn went from snooker to boxing and when he had Eubank was one of the biggest British promoters in the late eighties and early nineties, he won't start at the top but White is more than capable of getting near the top within a few years, it took Barry Hearn a few years - no more than that.

If that was the case re: Misfits then all shows would be big and on PPV. The sole reason the ones involving KSI/Logan Paul/Jake Paul sell so much is because of how big names they are. Not because of a competitive undercard.

The last Misfits show of 2023 was at York Hall as an example whilst the first one this year sold a couple of thousand max at the Leeds Arena.

They market themselves well and build intrigue to their fights. Something that a lot of boxers don’t do.

Barry Hearn got into boxing to make money and he did from his very first show and he was able to go straight into big fights (Bruno/Bugner at White Hart Lane). It’s unlikely Dana will be able to do both if he jumped into boxing properly.

Of course not all Misfits/influencer fights are PPV but how many have been PPV and how many cards have they had since the beginning? It is a very high percentage and of course if they weren't competitive to their level, nobody would watch, simple.

Well, there you go, Barry Hearn crossed over from snooker into boxing and didn't straight away challenge Warren and the cartel but he was soon up there and yes, his first boxing promotion was Bruno vs Bugner - were you around then at that time? In those days - it was the cartel and they had everything sewn up - ask some of the old timers, Warren had a hell of a job getting his foot into the door because the cartel did everything in their power to stop him and it was the breakthrough of Warren that helped others come through... there is no reason why Dana White shouldn't make a go of it if he is smart about it.

I don’t know how many misfits shows there have been but I’m pretty sure that the only ones to be PPV/sell well at the gate involved KSI and/or a Paul brother.

There have been other influencer/non traditional boxing companies like Kingpyn and Triller in recent and both have struggled to make it work.

I was too young when Barry moved into boxing but have read quite a bit about it. Warren did the hard work with changing the position of the cartel and Barry Hearn benefitted from that and having good relationships with the guys at ITV so was able to move straight to the top of the sport nationally and still make money out of it.

The cartel were making loads out of boxing as they had a monopoly on the TV rights.

Boxing in the US is different in that we’ve had the stalwarts leave the sport (HBO/Showtime) and many of the other major networks have tried with PBC but have come and gone (Fox, NBC and others) yet fighter purses at the elite level are still way out of whack with their commercial return.

Take Teofimo Lopez’s last fight. It sold about 4.000 tickets (1/3 of the arena) and averaged 451k viewers which would equate to less than $1m in ad revenue for ESPN. Yet Teo supposedly got $5m for the fight. Someone is losing a lot of money out of that and ultimately it’d be coming out of ESPN’s budget for boxing.

I can’t see Dana going anywhere near that kind of business model so unless something big changes (DAZN ceasing, PBC winding up, Top Rank getting a much smaller budget) hence me thinking he’d look to start at a very low level.

[Steveh583]

Wouldn’t work without him owning the monopoly. And he may well lose that in mma if this lawsuit goes against him

[Frostieballs]

Surely the only thing Dana would consider in boxing is starting a new governing body with fighters signed/competing exclusively to it.

Regular mandatories/tournaments etc. just like the UFC.

It would take a lot of financial backing, but once it built up a head of steam it could genuinely change the sport.

Anything else is a just a rehash of what has come before (as it always is). So what would be the point?

[Spud]

Surely the only thing Dana would consider in boxing is starting a new governing body with fighters signed/competing exclusively to it.

Regular mandatories/tournaments etc. just like the UFC.

It would take a lot of financial backing, but once it built up a head of steam it could genuinely change the sport.

Anything else is a just a rehash of what has come before (as it always is). So what would be the point?

Absolutely.

[Fray Bentos]

If that was the case re: Misfits then all shows would be big and on PPV. The sole reason the ones involving KSI/Logan Paul/Jake Paul sell so much is because of how big names they are. Not because of a competitive undercard.

The last Misfits show of 2023 was at York Hall as an example whilst the first one this year sold a couple of thousand max at the Leeds Arena.

They market themselves well and build intrigue to their fights. Something that a lot of boxers don’t do.

Barry Hearn got into boxing to make money and he did from his very first show and he was able to go straight into big fights (Bruno/Bugner at White Hart Lane). It’s unlikely Dana will be able to do both if he jumped into boxing properly.

Of course not all Misfits/influencer fights are PPV but how many have been PPV and how many cards have they had since the beginning? It is a very high percentage and of course if they weren't competitive to their level, nobody would watch, simple.

Well, there you go, Barry Hearn crossed over from snooker into boxing and didn't straight away challenge Warren and the cartel but he was soon up there and yes, his first boxing promotion was Bruno vs Bugner - were you around then at that time? In those days - it was the cartel and they had everything sewn up - ask some of the old timers, Warren had a hell of a job getting his foot into the door because the cartel did everything in their power to stop him and it was the breakthrough of Warren that helped others come through... there is no reason why Dana White shouldn't make a go of it if he is smart about it.

I don’t know how many misfits shows there have been but I’m pretty sure that the only ones to be PPV/sell well at the gate involved KSI and/or a Paul brother.

There have been other influencer/non traditional boxing companies like Kingpyn and Triller in recent and both have struggled to make it work.

I was too young when Barry moved into boxing but have read quite a bit about it. Warren did the hard work with changing the position of the cartel and Barry Hearn benefitted from that and having good relationships with the guys at ITV so was able to move straight to the top of the sport nationally and still make money out of it.

The cartel were making loads out of boxing as they had a monopoly on the TV rights.

Boxing in the US is different in that we’ve had the stalwarts leave the sport (HBO/Showtime) and many of the other major networks have tried with PBC but have come and gone (Fox, NBC and others) yet fighter purses at the elite level are still way out of whack with their commercial return.

Take Teofimo Lopez’s last fight. It sold about 4.000 tickets (1/3 of the arena) and averaged 451k viewers which would equate to less than $1m in ad revenue for ESPN. Yet Teo supposedly got $5m for the fight. Someone is losing a lot of money out of that and ultimately it’d be coming out of ESPN’s budget for boxing.

I can’t see Dana going anywhere near that kind of business model so unless something big changes (DAZN ceasing, PBC winding up, Top Rank getting a much smaller budget) hence me thinking he’d look to start at a very low level.

That's probably right but there haven't been that many influencer shows - Jake Paul has had something like 10 fights and that a high number of those are PPV - it's not been going ages - it's been going at most three years and even on here there are threads devoted to it - is that because they're Jake Paul/KSI fans or because it is boxing and there's entertainment value to it? There's entertainment value to it - it's not very good but it's quite entertaining and that's coming from someone who has been watching boxing before you were born. People will watch sporting events that entertain them which is why we don't have PPV crown green bowling

Dana White would have do things (pay more for marquee fighters) and start at a lower level to get going but boxing isn't a closed shop in the United States - it's not - 30 years ago, Atlantic City was a hotbed of boxing, now it isn't - things in boxing are always in flux and promoters come and go as do TV channels like you pointed out - boxing is very different today to what it was in 1994, what Dana White does have is important contacts in TV and the athletic state commissions and he knows how to promote sporting events around the world (if he can hold successful fight events in Brazil then he certainly can do it in his own country) and what does have to make it work is what Hearn had which is money.

There is no reason why Dana White can't make it work - twenty years ago, MMA was an underground sport and seen as dangerous by mainstream sporting bodies and TV - Dana White changed all that and made it mainstream.

[maverick23]

Of course not all Misfits/influencer fights are PPV but how many have been PPV and how many cards have they had since the beginning? It is a very high percentage and of course if they weren't competitive to their level, nobody would watch, simple.

Well, there you go, Barry Hearn crossed over from snooker into boxing and didn't straight away challenge Warren and the cartel but he was soon up there and yes, his first boxing promotion was Bruno vs Bugner - were you around then at that time? In those days - it was the cartel and they had everything sewn up - ask some of the old timers, Warren had a hell of a job getting his foot into the door because the cartel did everything in their power to stop him and it was the breakthrough of Warren that helped others come through... there is no reason why Dana White shouldn't make a go of it if he is smart about it.

I don’t know how many misfits shows there have been but I’m pretty sure that the only ones to be PPV/sell well at the gate involved KSI and/or a Paul brother.

There have been other influencer/non traditional boxing companies like Kingpyn and Triller in recent and both have struggled to make it work.

I was too young when Barry moved into boxing but have read quite a bit about it. Warren did the hard work with changing the position of the cartel and Barry Hearn benefitted from that and having good relationships with the guys at ITV so was able to move straight to the top of the sport nationally and still make money out of it.

The cartel were making loads out of boxing as they had a monopoly on the TV rights.

Boxing in the US is different in that we’ve had the stalwarts leave the sport (HBO/Showtime) and many of the other major networks have tried with PBC but have come and gone (Fox, NBC and others) yet fighter purses at the elite level are still way out of whack with their commercial return.

Take Teofimo Lopez’s last fight. It sold about 4.000 tickets (1/3 of the arena) and averaged 451k viewers which would equate to less than $1m in ad revenue for ESPN. Yet Teo supposedly got $5m for the fight. Someone is losing a lot of money out of that and ultimately it’d be coming out of ESPN’s budget for boxing.

I can’t see Dana going anywhere near that kind of business model so unless something big changes (DAZN ceasing, PBC winding up, Top Rank getting a much smaller budget) hence me thinking he’d look to start at a very low level.

That's probably right but there haven't been that many influencer shows - Jake Paul has had something like 10 fights and that a high number of those are PPV - it's not been going ages - it's been going at most three years and even on here there are threads devoted to it - is that because they're Jake Paul/KSI fans or because it is boxing and there's entertainment value to it? There's entertainment value to it - it's not very good but it's quite entertaining and that's coming from someone who has been watching boxing before you were born. People will watch sporting events that entertain them which is why we don't have PPV crown green bowling

Dana White would have do things (pay more for marquee fighters) and start at a lower level to get going but boxing isn't a closed shop in the United States - it's not - 30 years ago, Atlantic City was a hotbed of boxing, now it isn't - things in boxing are always in flux and promoters come and go as do TV channels like you pointed out - boxing is very different today to what it was in 1994, what Dana White does have is important contacts in TV and the athletic state commissions and he knows how to promote sporting events around the world (if he can hold successful fight events in Brazil then he certainly can do it in his own country) and what does have to make it work is what Hearn had which is money.

There is no reason why Dana White can't make it work - twenty years ago, MMA was an underground sport and seen as dangerous by mainstream sporting bodies and TV - Dana White changed all that and made it mainstream.

The KSI/Paul shows have done well because they have 10s of millions of followers and their content has been viewed many billions of times. People want to see them fight because they’re invested in them. It’s also why their drinks brand is reportedly worth several billion.

That’s why many of the other influencer shows don’t do as well or even get a mention on Boxrec.

The UFC does well in Brazil because of the strength of the UFC brand and the fact MMA/Jui Jitsu is so popular over there.

Dana/TKO would need to make substantial losses to get started in boxing in a big way. It’d be easier for them to add another $200m profit to the UFC than to add $20m profit out of boxing which is why I can’t see it happening other than them getting involved at a low level.

[Fray Bentos]

The KSI/Paul shows have done well because they have 10s of millions of followers and their content has been viewed many billions of times. People want to see them fight because they’re invested in them. It’s also why their drinks brand is reportedly worth several billion.

That’s why many of the other influencer shows don’t do as well or even get a mention on Boxrec.

So, if KSI, the Paul brothers, Salt Papi and all the other online wankers went playing 5 a side, crown green bowling, running the 100 metres against each other then they would get PPV and big TV coverage because it is about them right? So you're saying if Jake Paul and KSI had a game of table tennis then tens of millions of people around the world would pay out for PPV to watch that?

According to you, it has nothing to do with them punching each other in the face and it being somewhat entertaining.

The UFC does well in Brazil because of the strength of the UFC brand and the fact MMA/Jui Jitsu is so popular over there.

The UFC are the biggest brand over there, there the ones who do the biggest shows over there, there the ones who have top class Brazilian fighters under contract, there is no Brazilian MMA organisation anywhere near touching the UFC, the UFC is the most well known MMA brand by far.

Dana/TKO would need to make substantial losses to get started in boxing in a big way. It’d be easier for them to add another $200m profit to the UFC than to add $20m profit out of boxing which is why I can’t see it happening other than them getting involved at a low level.

It might not happen but if he tried the chances of successes are very high, moreso ever today than in anytime in history, you said (if I remember) that promoting in the states is competitive but it has always has been for the past over 100 years, it is nowhere near as hard now that it was in anytime in history - he has TV contacts, knows all the state athletic commissions because he deals with them already and would get a boxing promoters licence anywhere in the world, never mind the states and he also has the wealth - the only reason you think he might fail is that he might lose some money but if he stuck at it for a few years he would start reaping because people want value for money and they will pay it to see a good scrap and he would provide it because he provides it already with MMA.

[maverick23]

The KSI/Paul shows have done well because they have 10s of millions of followers and their content has been viewed many billions of times. People want to see them fight because they’re invested in them. It’s also why their drinks brand is reportedly worth several billion.

That’s why many of the other influencer shows don’t do as well or even get a mention on Boxrec.

So, if KSI, the Paul brothers, Salt Papi and all the other online wankers went playing 5 a side, crown green bowling, running the 100 metres against each other then they would get PPV and big TV coverage because it is about them right? So you're saying if Jake Paul and KSI had a game of table tennis then tens of millions of people around the world would pay out for PPV to watch that?

According to you, it has nothing to do with them punching each other in the face and it being somewhat entertaining.

The UFC does well in Brazil because of the strength of the UFC brand and the fact MMA/Jui Jitsu is so popular over there.

The UFC are the biggest brand over there, there the ones who do the biggest shows over there, there the ones who have top class Brazilian fighters under contract, there is no Brazilian MMA organisation anywhere near touching the UFC, the UFC is the most well known MMA brand by far.

Dana/TKO would need to make substantial losses to get started in boxing in a big way. It’d be easier for them to add another $200m profit to the UFC than to add $20m profit out of boxing which is why I can’t see it happening other than them getting involved at a low level.

It might not happen but if he tried the chances of successes are very high, moreso ever today than in anytime in history, you said (if I remember) that promoting in the states is competitive but it has always has been for the past over 100 years, it is nowhere near as hard now that it was in anytime in history - he has TV contacts, knows all the state athletic commissions because he deals with them already and would get a boxing promoters licence anywhere in the world, never mind the states and he also has the wealth - the only reason you think he might fail is that he might lose some money but if he stuck at it for a few years he would start reaping because people want value for money and they will pay it to see a good scrap and he would provide it because he provides it already with MMA.

The sidemen (which I think KSI is affiliated with) had a charity football match against YouTube all stars last year. They sold out 62,000 tickets ant West Ham’s stadium and had well over 50m views on YouTube alone.

Of course I’m not saying people will pay PPV to see Jake Paul/KSI play table tennis. Boxing is the most viable way for them to attract interest/money because of the risk and entertainment of the sport.

I disagreed with your assertion that ‘the reason it has took off is because the fights are competitive’. I don’t think that’s correct as the shows have had similarly competitive fights weren’t on PPV, delivered a fraction of the audience and didn’t sell many tickets. It took off because it has some of the most well known people (to those aged 25 and under) in the U.K. attached to it. That’s why those promotions not involving KSI/a Paul brother (like Kingpyn, like Triller) had to stop as they were losing money, despite them having competitive fights.

[Frostieballs]

Boxing does generate the most interest, but if KSI and Jake Paul had a table tennis match it would absolutely get millions of views.

Particularly if they hyped it, which they are masters at.

‘The million pound table tennis match’.

[Fray Bentos]

The sidemen (which I think KSI is affiliated with) had a charity football match against YouTube all stars last year. They sold out 62,000 tickets ant West Ham’s stadium and had well over 50m views on YouTube alone.

Was it PPV? Was it shown live on Sky Sports or DAZN? No, because nobody gives a shit about him playing football apart from his misguided followers - he might have lot of those by the way but no-one is paying to watch him and his team play another bunch of youtubers on any kind of big sporting televisual platform or even better - PPV - the reason he can command this interest with PPV because it's boxing and people like to watch other people punch each other in the face.

I am surprised I am explaining this on a boxing forum and especially Boxrec - this used to be the 'college of knowledge' regards boxing poster back in the early milenium.

Of course I’m not saying people will pay PPV to see Jake Paul/KSI play table tennis. Boxing is the most viable way for them to attract interest/money because of the risk and entertainment of the sport.

Well there you go then!

I disagreed with your assertion that ‘the reason it has took off is because the fights are competitive’. I don’t think that’s correct as the shows have had similarly competitive fights weren’t on PPV, delivered a fraction of the audience and didn’t sell many tickets. It took off because it has some of the most well known people (to those aged 25 and under) in the U.K. attached to it. That’s why those promotions not involving KSI/a Paul brother (like Kingpyn, like Triller) had to stop as they were losing money, despite them having competitive fights.

The argument is fornicating silly - it is, it's just another logic fail - so, people like to watch football for the reasons of skill and fitness and excitement so, that can't be the case because Doncaster Rovers get 4000 attendance and Real Madrid get 70000 - that would be a silly argument to make so what you are saying is that because not every influencer boxing promotion is equally as successful then people are not tuning in to watch influencer boxing because they don't like watching a good scrap that is somewhat even because they're all novices?

You have just said if KSI and Paul had a table tennis match it wouldn't do PPV and DAZN/Sky wouldn't touch them which is correct, then it isn't anything to do with their online personas or following and rather that they're boxing which is one of the few PPV sports out there.

[Fray Bentos]

Boxing does generate the most interest, but if KSI and Jake Paul had a table tennis match it would absolutely get millions of views.

Particularly if they hyped it, which they are masters at.

‘The million pound table tennis match’.

It would not be a PPV event though, it wouldn't escape off their respective channels, the reason they command PPV events from mainstream satellite channels is because it's boxing.

[maverick23]

The sidemen (which I think KSI is affiliated with) had a charity football match against YouTube all stars last year. They sold out 62,000 tickets ant West Ham’s stadium and had well over 50m views on YouTube alone.

Was it PPV? Was it shown live on Sky Sports or DAZN? No, because nobody gives a shit about him playing football apart from his misguided followers - he might have lot of those by the way but no-one is paying to watch him and his team play another bunch of youtubers on any kind of big sporting televisual platform or even better - PPV - the reason he can command this interest with PPV because it's boxing and people like to watch other people punch each other in the face.

I am surprised I am explaining this on a boxing forum and especially Boxrec - this used to be the 'college of knowledge' regards boxing poster back in the early milenium.

Of course I’m not saying people will pay PPV to see Jake Paul/KSI play table tennis. Boxing is the most viable way for them to attract interest/money because of the risk and entertainment of the sport.

Well there you go then!

I disagreed with your assertion that ‘the reason it has took off is because the fights are competitive’. I don’t think that’s correct as the shows have had similarly competitive fights weren’t on PPV, delivered a fraction of the audience and didn’t sell many tickets. It took off because it has some of the most well known people (to those aged 25 and under) in the U.K. attached to it. That’s why those promotions not involving KSI/a Paul brother (like Kingpyn, like Triller) had to stop as they were losing money, despite them having competitive fights.

The argument is fornicating silly - it is, it's just another logic fail - so, people like to watch football for the reasons of skill and fitness and excitement so, that can't be the case because Doncaster Rovers get 4000 attendance and Real Madrid get 70000 - that would be a silly argument to make so what you are saying is that because not every influencer boxing promotion is equally as successful then people are not tuning in to watch influencer boxing because they don't like watching a good scrap that is somewhat even because they're all novices?

You have just said if KSI and Paul had a table tennis match it wouldn't do PPV and DAZN/Sky wouldn't touch them which is correct, then it isn't anything to do with their online personas or following and rather that they're boxing which is one of the few PPV sports out there.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing about. As I’ve said boxing is the best way for them to monetise their popularity because people like to see them settle their rivalries with punches rather than anything else.

The football I mentioned had 62,000 paying fans for it and they had it on YouTube to monetise it and it generated far bigger viewership on there than it would have done on Sky or DAZN. It also raised £2.5m for charity and generated more exposure for themselves and the charity than it would have done elsewhere.

What have I actually said that you disagree with?

You mis-quoted me with the below…

‘You have just said if KSI and Paul had a table tennis match it wouldn't do PPV and DAZN/Sky wouldn't touch them which is correct’

I didn’t say that. I said they wouldn’t do it PPV. If Sky Sports or DAZN had the option to show them play table tennis with a proper build then I’m sure they would as it would generate interest and views. Just not enough to warrant PPV like boxing does.

[Fray Bentos]

I’m not sure what you’re arguing about. As I’ve said boxing is the best way for them to monetise their popularity because people like to see them settle their rivalries with punches rather than anything else.

I can put that back to you because that is exactly what I said in the first place when you started arguing about it. Go back and have another read.

think of these 'misfits' fights, they sell out arenas AND get PPV because they're competitive even though the skill level isn't very good and sometimes it's atrocious but because they're usually well matched, people will pay to watch it. All people want to see is a good, honest scrap between two evenly matched fighters.

Are they 'competitive' - for the most part, yes they are - do people buy the PPV's to watch them box? Yes they do why? Because they are for the most part entertaining and they train for it and take it seriously, if they were like a lot of undercard bouts in the UK - these days, flying machine vs journeyman and a 60-54's then people wouldn't watch it and why would they? I don't want to watch that in professional boxing and nor would most people would want to watch 'influencers' do it - the reason this has took off is because they go in and try their best.

The football I mentioned had 62,000 paying fans for it and they had it on YouTube to monetise it and it generated far bigger viewership on there than it would have done on Sky or DAZN. It also raised £2.5m for charity and generated more exposure for themselves and the charity than it would have done elsewhere.

So, they earned more money on their channel but the boxing on DAZN doesn't? the reason it wasn't on Sky or DAZN is because they're not interested in a charity football match nor are most people outside their circles of fandom - they are interested in their boxing though - their boxing is a PPV event - their football isn't and never will be for reasons I explained in the first post you responded to.

What have I actually said that you disagree with?

What you have said that I disagree with is that it is their online personas that generate PPV coverage on global satellite channels, is it a factor? Of course (via the Paul brothers) but the main overriding factor is that it is boxing otherwise if it was any other sport - it wouldn't be PPV or covered on any other medium than their youtube channel - you have just said about their game of football - it was shown on their channel and maybe lots of people watched it - it doesn't matter as lots of things get lots of views on YouTube - there is a video of a fat black woman sitting on a toilet singing 'sitting on a toilet' that has millions of views and I daresay millions of 'likes' these days.

Also, I disagreed with your points about Dana White and his suitability for boxing promoting - which has took a back seat in this debate for some reason, and the reason is that there is no reason why Dana White couldn't make a success of boxing in this day and age like he has with the UFC - it's easier now for someone like White - who has success in another sport and is well known and has lots of high influence contacts in tv and the state athletic commissions - it would be easier now to make his mark in boxing as a promoter than in any time in history.

You mis-quoted me with the below…

‘You have just said if KSI and Paul had a table tennis match it wouldn't do PPV and DAZN/Sky wouldn't touch them which is correct’

I didn’t say that. I said they wouldn’t do it PPV. If Sky Sports or DAZN had the option to show them play table tennis with a proper build then I’m sure they would as it would generate interest and views. Just not enough to warrant PPV like boxing does.

Well they haven't done up until now have they? And I doubt they would because a serious sports channel aren't going to cover influencers playing table tennis as part of their schedule - and you know this to be true.

I know little about the world of influencer boxing and your examples of less popular events - was it 'kingpyn' and 'triller' and I have just read that both of those promotions had PPV events on DAZN which cements my point that the only celebrity/infuencer/veteran sports that generate PPV and space on such channels as DAZN is boxing! They're not interested in them doing anything else - why? Because people want to watch a good scrap and they will pay for it, they don't want them prancing around with a ball at the Emirates pretending to be Lionel Messi.

[maverick23]

This is what you said initially that disagreed with…

‘The one thing boxing is missing is competitive fights all around the board - if he could hold cards where all the fights were competitive - from six rounders to the main event - then people would pay good money to watch them, think of these 'misfits' fights, they sell out arenas AND get PPV because they're competitive even though the skill level isn't very good and sometimes it's atrocious but because they're usually well matched, people will pay to watch it.’

As I said before the only ‘misfits’ type shows that have done well as those involving a Paul brother or KSI. They’ve primarily done well because of the profile each of them have. Some of them were big mismatches too.

The other recent influencer shows haven’t been on or done well on PPV or sold well at the gate.

I’m all in favour for wanting more competitive fights on regular boxing shows.

We’ll probably have to agree to disagree though.

What did I say that you disagreed with re: Dana? Of course he could make a go of it and he knows TV execs and athletic commissions. Unless they’re doing it at a low level though it will be tough and expensive to break in properly because as DAZN/Matchroom had to do when they entered the market, they’d have to pay a significant premium to get fighters over from the established promoters.

Boxers will be getting told that Dana won’t have the fights/opponents available to them and point to the pay scale they’ve got in the UFC and say that even if they become a star they’ll get a much smaller % of PPV upside than they would from the other promoters. There also hasn’t been a time where there’s been so few US linear TV channels show boxing. Many have tried but would have been put off by it.

Could Dana try? Sure but I’d be surprised given the business model he’s mastered at the UFC and the fact that Dana doesn’t really call his own shots anymore as he’s not on the main board of TKO.

I think TKO would more likely acquire an existing promoter’s brand. Perhaps Top Rank. Or they take a piece on Matchroom.

Nothing was mentioned on TKO’s earnings call this week that would indicate an impending move into boxing but they’re forecasting decent growth again in the UFC.

[Spud]

Some damn good posts

[Fray Bentos]

This is what you said initially that disagreed with…

‘The one thing boxing is missing is competitive fights all around the board - if he could hold cards where all the fights were competitive - from six rounders to the main event - then people would pay good money to watch them, think of these 'misfits' fights, they sell out arenas AND get PPV because they're competitive even though the skill level isn't very good and sometimes it's atrocious but because they're usually well matched, people will pay to watch it.’

As I said before the only ‘misfits’ type shows that have done well as those involving a Paul brother or KSI. They’ve primarily done well because of the profile each of them have. Some of them were big mismatches too.

The other recent influencer shows haven’t been on or done well on PPV or sold well at the gate.

I’m all in favour for wanting more competitive fights on regular boxing shows.

We’ll probably have to agree to disagree though.

What did I say that you disagreed with re: Dana? Of course he could make a go of it and he knows TV execs and athletic commissions. Unless they’re doing it at a low level though it will be tough and expensive to break in properly because as DAZN/Matchroom had to do when they entered the market, they’d have to pay a significant premium to get fighters over from the established promoters.

Boxers will be getting told that Dana won’t have the fights/opponents available to them and point to the pay scale they’ve got in the UFC and say that even if they become a star they’ll get a much smaller % of PPV upside than they would from the other promoters. There also hasn’t been a time where there’s been so few US linear TV channels show boxing. Many have tried but would have been put off by it.

Could Dana try? Sure but I’d be surprised given the business model he’s mastered at the UFC and the fact that Dana doesn’t really call his own shots anymore as he’s not on the main board of TKO.

I think TKO would more likely acquire an existing promoter’s brand. Perhaps Top Rank. Or they take a piece on Matchroom.

Nothing was mentioned on TKO’s earnings call this week that would indicate an impending move into boxing but they’re forecasting decent growth again in the UFC.

Obviously he isn't going to replicate the business model he has adopted at the UFC (or he just might - who knows?) - he will probably have to try something different if he is going to enter boxing but there is no reason why he shouldn't succeed - he has everything at his disposal to make it succeed, the only reason he doesn't is because he gets bored and frustrated with it and sacks it off because of the politics. I think you're under a misapprehension about how much current promoters/managers are paying fighters - not that much - Dana White wouldn't have to dig that deep to attract fighters to get him to come over to him and he certainly has the resources to attract them - in MMA - everyone wants a UFC contract and are willing to do whatever it takes to get one in that show they have 'The Ultimate Fighter' which they're being paid next to nothing to compete in (apart from the winner of course).

The only reason the Misfit/Paul brothers are PPV events because boxing and MMA are the only sporting events that have a global PPV reach - of course they're famous but no TV company or high reaching satellite channel is going to pay them good money or give them PPV access for them to play football, darts or any other sport.

https://ppvworld.com/pay-per-view-top-1 ... n-history/

The ten biggest PPV's in history have all been either boxing or MMA - they're the only sports that matter in the PPV world for making serious cash and within the top ten are four promotions headed/co-promoted by the UFC which sort of cements my position that not only does Dana White have the means, the money and the talent to make it work but has more of those than probably anyone in boxing today outside the Saudi government/royal family.

Going back to Misfits/the Paul brothers, nothing else they will ever do will attract PPV - they can attract 100000 at Wembley playing an all star 11 and it isn't going to attract PPV - it isn't - ever - they have latched onto boxing because they know this and they're also a) young and fit b) take it really seriously c) they put on entertaining fights and d) people want to watch entertaining fights. Wasn't triller involved in Evander Holyfield getting knocked out by Belfort? Who wants to pay 50 dollars to watch a 58 year old former fighter getting knocked out in a round or two by an MMA fighter - you would have to be some kind of ghoul.

[SeanBrennan]

loving use of the world ghoul

[maverick23]

This is what you said initially that disagreed with…

‘The one thing boxing is missing is competitive fights all around the board - if he could hold cards where all the fights were competitive - from six rounders to the main event - then people would pay good money to watch them, think of these 'misfits' fights, they sell out arenas AND get PPV because they're competitive even though the skill level isn't very good and sometimes it's atrocious but because they're usually well matched, people will pay to watch it.’

As I said before the only ‘misfits’ type shows that have done well as those involving a Paul brother or KSI. They’ve primarily done well because of the profile each of them have. Some of them were big mismatches too.

The other recent influencer shows haven’t been on or done well on PPV or sold well at the gate.

I’m all in favour for wanting more competitive fights on regular boxing shows.

We’ll probably have to agree to disagree though.

What did I say that you disagreed with re: Dana? Of course he could make a go of it and he knows TV execs and athletic commissions. Unless they’re doing it at a low level though it will be tough and expensive to break in properly because as DAZN/Matchroom had to do when they entered the market, they’d have to pay a significant premium to get fighters over from the established promoters.

Boxers will be getting told that Dana won’t have the fights/opponents available to them and point to the pay scale they’ve got in the UFC and say that even if they become a star they’ll get a much smaller % of PPV upside than they would from the other promoters. There also hasn’t been a time where there’s been so few US linear TV channels show boxing. Many have tried but would have been put off by it.

Could Dana try? Sure but I’d be surprised given the business model he’s mastered at the UFC and the fact that Dana doesn’t really call his own shots anymore as he’s not on the main board of TKO.

I think TKO would more likely acquire an existing promoter’s brand. Perhaps Top Rank. Or they take a piece on Matchroom.

Nothing was mentioned on TKO’s earnings call this week that would indicate an impending move into boxing but they’re forecasting decent growth again in the UFC.

Obviously he isn't going to replicate the business model he has adopted at the UFC (or he just might - who knows?) - he will probably have to try something different if he is going to enter boxing but there is no reason why he shouldn't succeed - he has everything at his disposal to make it succeed, the only reason he doesn't is because he gets bored and frustrated with it and sacks it off because of the politics. I think you're under a misapprehension about how much current promoters/managers are paying fighters - not that much - Dana White wouldn't have to dig that deep to attract fighters to get him to come over to him and he certainly has the resources to attract them - in MMA - everyone wants a UFC contract and are willing to do whatever it takes to get one in that show they have 'The Ultimate Fighter' which they're being paid next to nothing to compete in (apart from the winner of course).

The only reason the Misfit/Paul brothers are PPV events because boxing and MMA are the only sporting events that have a global PPV reach - of course they're famous but no TV company or high reaching satellite channel is going to pay them good money or give them PPV access for them to play football, darts or any other sport.

https://ppvworld.com/pay-per-view-top-1 ... n-history/

The ten biggest PPV's in history have all been either boxing or MMA - they're the only sports that matter in the PPV world for making serious cash and within the top ten are four promotions headed/co-promoted by the UFC which sort of cements my position that not only does Dana White have the means, the money and the talent to make it work but has more of those than probably anyone in boxing today outside the Saudi government/royal family.

Going back to Misfits/the Paul brothers, nothing else they will ever do will attract PPV - they can attract 100000 at Wembley playing an all star 11 and it isn't going to attract PPV - it isn't - ever - they have latched onto boxing because they know this and they're also a) young and fit b) take it really seriously c) they put on entertaining fights and d) people want to watch entertaining fights. Wasn't triller involved in Evander Holyfield getting knocked out by Belfort? Who wants to pay 50 dollars to watch a 58 year old former fighter getting knocked out in a round or two by an MMA fighter - you would have to be some kind of ghoul.

A couple of things…

You keep going back to PPV. I’m aware of the numbers and that boxing/UFC is the best way for the most well known influencers to make money. I disagreed with your point that they do PPV and sell out arenas because they’re competitive.

I have a pretty good idea about how much certain US fighters are paid. Sadly I get quite a lot of the commission reports that detail show finances.

Take Teofimo Lopez vs Josh Taylor last year. The commission report. The gate was $835k and it was allocated $6.6m from the ESPN budget. Teofimo Lopez/Josh Taylor reportedly got $5m between them for it and it averaged 781k viewers on linear TV. For 2 hours that means ESPN probably got $1.5-$2m of ad revenue for it.

There’s a whole in those numbers and ESPN have overpaid for what it delivered. Teo supposedly got c.$4m for his recent fight and it generated much fewer viewers (451k). That’s abysmal for linear ESPN for a fighter costing that much.

I’d imagine not one UfC fighter made $4m in total last year, let alone for one fight. The UFC delivered bigger viewers for ESPN, probably costs less per show due to the low fighter pay and everyone is happy (bar the fighters pursuing a class action suit about UfC market control).

Yet in boxing we see more and more linear channels leave the sport because they haven’t generated a positive return.

Could Dana does something? Of course but it’s not his decision to make any more. It’s the board’s who he reports in to and I’d be surprised if they go for it knowing it’d be an expensive exercise.

[Fray Bentos]

This is what you said initially that disagreed with…

‘The one thing boxing is missing is competitive fights all around the board - if he could hold cards where all the fights were competitive - from six rounders to the main event - then people would pay good money to watch them, think of these 'misfits' fights, they sell out arenas AND get PPV because they're competitive even though the skill level isn't very good and sometimes it's atrocious but because they're usually well matched, people will pay to watch it.’

As I said before the only ‘misfits’ type shows that have done well as those involving a Paul brother or KSI. They’ve primarily done well because of the profile each of them have. Some of them were big mismatches too.

The other recent influencer shows haven’t been on or done well on PPV or sold well at the gate.

I’m all in favour for wanting more competitive fights on regular boxing shows.

We’ll probably have to agree to disagree though.

What did I say that you disagreed with re: Dana? Of course he could make a go of it and he knows TV execs and athletic commissions. Unless they’re doing it at a low level though it will be tough and expensive to break in properly because as DAZN/Matchroom had to do when they entered the market, they’d have to pay a significant premium to get fighters over from the established promoters.

Boxers will be getting told that Dana won’t have the fights/opponents available to them and point to the pay scale they’ve got in the UFC and say that even if they become a star they’ll get a much smaller % of PPV upside than they would from the other promoters. There also hasn’t been a time where there’s been so few US linear TV channels show boxing. Many have tried but would have been put off by it.

Could Dana try? Sure but I’d be surprised given the business model he’s mastered at the UFC and the fact that Dana doesn’t really call his own shots anymore as he’s not on the main board of TKO.

I think TKO would more likely acquire an existing promoter’s brand. Perhaps Top Rank. Or they take a piece on Matchroom.

Nothing was mentioned on TKO’s earnings call this week that would indicate an impending move into boxing but they’re forecasting decent growth again in the UFC.

Obviously he isn't going to replicate the business model he has adopted at the UFC (or he just might - who knows?) - he will probably have to try something different if he is going to enter boxing but there is no reason why he shouldn't succeed - he has everything at his disposal to make it succeed, the only reason he doesn't is because he gets bored and frustrated with it and sacks it off because of the politics. I think you're under a misapprehension about how much current promoters/managers are paying fighters - not that much - Dana White wouldn't have to dig that deep to attract fighters to get him to come over to him and he certainly has the resources to attract them - in MMA - everyone wants a UFC contract and are willing to do whatever it takes to get one in that show they have 'The Ultimate Fighter' which they're being paid next to nothing to compete in (apart from the winner of course).

The only reason the Misfit/Paul brothers are PPV events because boxing and MMA are the only sporting events that have a global PPV reach - of course they're famous but no TV company or high reaching satellite channel is going to pay them good money or give them PPV access for them to play football, darts or any other sport.

https://ppvworld.com/pay-per-view-top-1 ... n-history/

The ten biggest PPV's in history have all been either boxing or MMA - they're the only sports that matter in the PPV world for making serious cash and within the top ten are four promotions headed/co-promoted by the UFC which sort of cements my position that not only does Dana White have the means, the money and the talent to make it work but has more of those than probably anyone in boxing today outside the Saudi government/royal family.

Going back to Misfits/the Paul brothers, nothing else they will ever do will attract PPV - they can attract 100000 at Wembley playing an all star 11 and it isn't going to attract PPV - it isn't - ever - they have latched onto boxing because they know this and they're also a) young and fit b) take it really seriously c) they put on entertaining fights and d) people want to watch entertaining fights. Wasn't triller involved in Evander Holyfield getting knocked out by Belfort? Who wants to pay 50 dollars to watch a 58 year old former fighter getting knocked out in a round or two by an MMA fighter - you would have to be some kind of ghoul.

A couple of things…

You keep going back to PPV. I’m aware of the numbers and that boxing/UFC is the best way for the most well known influencers to make money. I disagreed with your point that they do PPV and sell out arenas because they’re competitive.

I have a pretty good idea about how much certain US fighters are paid. Sadly I get quite a lot of the commission reports that detail show finances.

Take Teofimo Lopez vs Josh Taylor last year. The commission report. The gate was $835k and it was allocated $6.6m from the ESPN budget. Teofimo Lopez/Josh Taylor reportedly got $5m between them for it and it averaged 781k viewers on linear TV. For 2 hours that means ESPN probably got $1.5-$2m of ad revenue for it.

There’s a whole in those numbers and ESPN have overpaid for what it delivered. Teo supposedly got c.$4m for his recent fight and it generated much fewer viewers (451k). That’s abysmal for linear ESPN for a fighter costing that much.

I’d imagine not one UfC fighter made $4m in total last year, let alone for one fight. The UFC delivered bigger viewers for ESPN, probably costs less per show due to the low fighter pay and everyone is happy (bar the fighters pursuing a class action suit about UfC market control).

Yet in boxing we see more and more linear channels leave the sport because they haven’t generated a positive return.

Could Dana does something? Of course but it’s not his decision to make any more. It’s the board’s who he reports in to and I’d be surprised if they go for it knowing it’d be an expensive exercise.

And now we go back full circle on it, the reason money is being lost in boxing is because of the state of it at the moment, people are being turned off by it and refuse to pay money for what is a substandard product for the most part - mismatches, a plethora of titles, 60-54 undercards, champions not fighting other champions - there's a lot of things wrong with it at the moment - now, the UFC is worth 10 BILLION dollars, there is no other boxing promotion that has that kind of revenue - who does? The Saudis do obviously which is why they can bring the world heavyweight championship to Riyadh but apart from them, Dana White if he decided to take it seriously would be one of the biggest games in town and most certainly in America.

The UFC isn't a substandard product - the best fight the best, the undercards are competitive which is why they generate the revenue because that's what people want, it isn't hard - people aren't going to shell out for boxing in what at the moment is a mess, you read it even on here how actual hardcore boxing fans have stopped paying out for boxing related products, UFC on the other hand...

Your original point was White would find it hard because it's 'competitive' and it's a silly comment, boxing promotion in the United States always has been competitive and White has shown he has what it takes to make a success - of course he would, he has took a heavily derided underground sport and turned into the mainstream - he could do a lot of good for boxing and bring it back to near to where it was.

Obviously, influencers get boxing PPV dates because they're competitive and of course, they're boxing, they're not playing football or darts or synchronised swimming, do you think they would sell if they were basically the average British undercard of a one sided flying machine vs journeyman? Course they wouldn't, you also said that influencers could get prime TV coverage for sports other than boxing, again, not true what you said.

[maverick23]

Obviously he isn't going to replicate the business model he has adopted at the UFC (or he just might - who knows?) - he will probably have to try something different if he is going to enter boxing but there is no reason why he shouldn't succeed - he has everything at his disposal to make it succeed, the only reason he doesn't is because he gets bored and frustrated with it and sacks it off because of the politics. I think you're under a misapprehension about how much current promoters/managers are paying fighters - not that much - Dana White wouldn't have to dig that deep to attract fighters to get him to come over to him and he certainly has the resources to attract them - in MMA - everyone wants a UFC contract and are willing to do whatever it takes to get one in that show they have 'The Ultimate Fighter' which they're being paid next to nothing to compete in (apart from the winner of course).

The only reason the Misfit/Paul brothers are PPV events because boxing and MMA are the only sporting events that have a global PPV reach - of course they're famous but no TV company or high reaching satellite channel is going to pay them good money or give them PPV access for them to play football, darts or any other sport.

https://ppvworld.com/pay-per-view-top-1 ... n-history/

The ten biggest PPV's in history have all been either boxing or MMA - they're the only sports that matter in the PPV world for making serious cash and within the top ten are four promotions headed/co-promoted by the UFC which sort of cements my position that not only does Dana White have the means, the money and the talent to make it work but has more of those than probably anyone in boxing today outside the Saudi government/royal family.

Going back to Misfits/the Paul brothers, nothing else they will ever do will attract PPV - they can attract 100000 at Wembley playing an all star 11 and it isn't going to attract PPV - it isn't - ever - they have latched onto boxing because they know this and they're also a) young and fit b) take it really seriously c) they put on entertaining fights and d) people want to watch entertaining fights. Wasn't triller involved in Evander Holyfield getting knocked out by Belfort? Who wants to pay 50 dollars to watch a 58 year old former fighter getting knocked out in a round or two by an MMA fighter - you would have to be some kind of ghoul.

A couple of things…

You keep going back to PPV. I’m aware of the numbers and that boxing/UFC is the best way for the most well known influencers to make money. I disagreed with your point that they do PPV and sell out arenas because they’re competitive.

I have a pretty good idea about how much certain US fighters are paid. Sadly I get quite a lot of the commission reports that detail show finances.

Take Teofimo Lopez vs Josh Taylor last year. The commission report. The gate was $835k and it was allocated $6.6m from the ESPN budget. Teofimo Lopez/Josh Taylor reportedly got $5m between them for it and it averaged 781k viewers on linear TV. For 2 hours that means ESPN probably got $1.5-$2m of ad revenue for it.

There’s a whole in those numbers and ESPN have overpaid for what it delivered. Teo supposedly got c.$4m for his recent fight and it generated much fewer viewers (451k). That’s abysmal for linear ESPN for a fighter costing that much.

I’d imagine not one UfC fighter made $4m in total last year, let alone for one fight. The UFC delivered bigger viewers for ESPN, probably costs less per show due to the low fighter pay and everyone is happy (bar the fighters pursuing a class action suit about UfC market control).

Yet in boxing we see more and more linear channels leave the sport because they haven’t generated a positive return.

Could Dana does something? Of course but it’s not his decision to make any more. It’s the board’s who he reports in to and I’d be surprised if they go for it knowing it’d be an expensive exercise.

And now we go back full circle on it, the reason money is being lost in boxing is because of the state of it at the moment, people are being turned off by it and refuse to pay money for what is a substandard product for the most part - mismatches, a plethora of titles, 60-54 undercards, champions not fighting other champions - there's a lot of things wrong with it at the moment - now, the UFC is worth 10 BILLION dollars, there is no other boxing promotion that has that kind of revenue - who does? The Saudis do obviously which is why they can bring the world heavyweight championship to Riyadh but apart from them, Dana White if he decided to take it seriously would be one of the biggest games in town and most certainly in America.

The UFC isn't a substandard product - the best fight the best, the undercards are competitive which is why they generate the revenue because that's what people want, it isn't hard - people aren't going to shell out for boxing in what at the moment is a mess, you read it even on here how actual hardcore boxing fans have stopped paying out for boxing related products, UFC on the other hand...

Your original point was White would find it hard because it's 'competitive' and it's a silly comment, boxing promotion in the United States always has been competitive and White has shown he has what it takes to make a success - of course he would, he has took a heavily derided underground sport and turned into the mainstream - he could do a lot of good for boxing and bring it back to near to where it was.

Obviously, influencers get boxing PPV dates because they're competitive and of course, they're boxing, they're not playing football or darts or synchronised swimming, do you think they would sell if they were basically the average British undercard of a one sided flying machine vs journeyman? Course they wouldn't, you also said that influencers could get prime TV coverage for sports other than boxing, again, not true what you said.

Can I please ask that when you say ‘my original point was’ - you actually quote me?

I didn’t say White would find it hard because it’s competitive. Boxing is a competitive market though where fighters are paid more than their commercial worth. That’s something that I genuinely can’t remember White ever doing with the UFC.

Influencers don’t get PPV dates because they’re competitive and it’s boxing. They get PPV dates because they have some of them massive profiles and it’s boxing.

Also TV networks would happily show an influencer/YouTube football match if the they gave them the opportunity. They care about ratings which based on the 60k attendance and online views it would deliver. They wouldn’t be able to compete with the amount of views they had from streaming it on YouTube though which is the modern world.

[Fray Bentos]

A couple of things…

You keep going back to PPV. I’m aware of the numbers and that boxing/UFC is the best way for the most well known influencers to make money. I disagreed with your point that they do PPV and sell out arenas because they’re competitive.

I have a pretty good idea about how much certain US fighters are paid. Sadly I get quite a lot of the commission reports that detail show finances.

Take Teofimo Lopez vs Josh Taylor last year. The commission report. The gate was $835k and it was allocated $6.6m from the ESPN budget. Teofimo Lopez/Josh Taylor reportedly got $5m between them for it and it averaged 781k viewers on linear TV. For 2 hours that means ESPN probably got $1.5-$2m of ad revenue for it.

There’s a whole in those numbers and ESPN have overpaid for what it delivered. Teo supposedly got c.$4m for his recent fight and it generated much fewer viewers (451k). That’s abysmal for linear ESPN for a fighter costing that much.

I’d imagine not one UfC fighter made $4m in total last year, let alone for one fight. The UFC delivered bigger viewers for ESPN, probably costs less per show due to the low fighter pay and everyone is happy (bar the fighters pursuing a class action suit about UfC market control).

Yet in boxing we see more and more linear channels leave the sport because they haven’t generated a positive return.

Could Dana does something? Of course but it’s not his decision to make any more. It’s the board’s who he reports in to and I’d be surprised if they go for it knowing it’d be an expensive exercise.

And now we go back full circle on it, the reason money is being lost in boxing is because of the state of it at the moment, people are being turned off by it and refuse to pay money for what is a substandard product for the most part - mismatches, a plethora of titles, 60-54 undercards, champions not fighting other champions - there's a lot of things wrong with it at the moment - now, the UFC is worth 10 BILLION dollars, there is no other boxing promotion that has that kind of revenue - who does? The Saudis do obviously which is why they can bring the world heavyweight championship to Riyadh but apart from them, Dana White if he decided to take it seriously would be one of the biggest games in town and most certainly in America.

The UFC isn't a substandard product - the best fight the best, the undercards are competitive which is why they generate the revenue because that's what people want, it isn't hard - people aren't going to shell out for boxing in what at the moment is a mess, you read it even on here how actual hardcore boxing fans have stopped paying out for boxing related products, UFC on the other hand...

Your original point was White would find it hard because it's 'competitive' and it's a silly comment, boxing promotion in the United States always has been competitive and White has shown he has what it takes to make a success - of course he would, he has took a heavily derided underground sport and turned into the mainstream - he could do a lot of good for boxing and bring it back to near to where it was.

Obviously, influencers get boxing PPV dates because they're competitive and of course, they're boxing, they're not playing football or darts or synchronised swimming, do you think they would sell if they were basically the average British undercard of a one sided flying machine vs journeyman? Course they wouldn't, you also said that influencers could get prime TV coverage for sports other than boxing, again, not true what you said.

Can I please ask that when you say ‘my original point was’ - you actually quote me?

I didn’t say White would find it hard because it’s competitive. Boxing is a competitive market though where fighters are paid more than their commercial worth. That’s something that I genuinely can’t remember White ever doing with the UFC.

Influencers don’t get PPV dates because they’re competitive and it’s boxing. They get PPV dates because they have some of them massive profiles and it’s boxing.

Also TV networks would happily show an influencer/YouTube football match if the they gave them the opportunity. They care about ratings which based on the 60k attendance and online views it would deliver. They wouldn’t be able to compete with the amount of views they had from streaming it on YouTube though which is the modern world.

What you said is there, go back and read and anyone else can do the same, you said that boxing in the US is too 'competitive' for Dana White to compete in and that purses for top fighters have been but that's always has been the case, when has that not been the case? Once you had a champion per one of the eight weight divisions and now you have 56 or whatever - this is the easiest time in boxing history for him to be a promoter - he has the means, he doesn't have to deal with the mafia, he doesn't have to deal with newspaper editors and newspaper decisions, colour bars, male only dominance and of course we have the internet and satellite/cable TV with PPV's that reach every part of the planet, also, boxing is now more than a worldwide sport than it ever has been in anytime in history - we don't have to go back 40 years and boxers didn't come from Kazakhstan or Latvia or the Congo or that they held big fights in Poland, Saudi Arabia and China.

The top - let's be generous - the top twenty boxers earn millions whereas the rest don't - 99% of boxers don't earn megabucks which is why Mairis Bredis is shilling for a fight with Jake Paul and not Chris Billam Smith. The reason they're not earning the money they should be is because they're not fighting each other, there are too many champions, too many titles, interim, international blah blah blah - the sport is in a unholy mess and people are just switching off from it, I don't remember the last time I paid for a PPV but it was years ago - the sport isn't value for money anymore.

If influencers get PPV for solely for who are they are then they would get PPV dates for their games of football but they don't, why? Well, as we have already established, boxing and MMA are the biggest PPV draws that there is and b) to enjoy boxing - the skill level doesn't have to be as high as it would for a game of football as long as they get a good scrap - the ordinary punter is not shelling out PPV money to watch KSI clodhopper about White Hart Lane badly hoofing a ball around but they will to watch him put in a decent shift against Logan Paul - you keep saying that if they 'get the opportunity' but who is stopping them getting the 'opportunity'? A TV network has yet to 'happily' show a game as part of their schedule, I wonder why?

[maverick23]

And now we go back full circle on it, the reason money is being lost in boxing is because of the state of it at the moment, people are being turned off by it and refuse to pay money for what is a substandard product for the most part - mismatches, a plethora of titles, 60-54 undercards, champions not fighting other champions - there's a lot of things wrong with it at the moment - now, the UFC is worth 10 BILLION dollars, there is no other boxing promotion that has that kind of revenue - who does? The Saudis do obviously which is why they can bring the world heavyweight championship to Riyadh but apart from them, Dana White if he decided to take it seriously would be one of the biggest games in town and most certainly in America.

The UFC isn't a substandard product - the best fight the best, the undercards are competitive which is why they generate the revenue because that's what people want, it isn't hard - people aren't going to shell out for boxing in what at the moment is a mess, you read it even on here how actual hardcore boxing fans have stopped paying out for boxing related products, UFC on the other hand...

Your original point was White would find it hard because it's 'competitive' and it's a silly comment, boxing promotion in the United States always has been competitive and White has shown he has what it takes to make a success - of course he would, he has took a heavily derided underground sport and turned into the mainstream - he could do a lot of good for boxing and bring it back to near to where it was.

Obviously, influencers get boxing PPV dates because they're competitive and of course, they're boxing, they're not playing football or darts or synchronised swimming, do you think they would sell if they were basically the average British undercard of a one sided flying machine vs journeyman? Course they wouldn't, you also said that influencers could get prime TV coverage for sports other than boxing, again, not true what you said.

Can I please ask that when you say ‘my original point was’ - you actually quote me?

I didn’t say White would find it hard because it’s competitive. Boxing is a competitive market though where fighters are paid more than their commercial worth. That’s something that I genuinely can’t remember White ever doing with the UFC.

Influencers don’t get PPV dates because they’re competitive and it’s boxing. They get PPV dates because they have some of them massive profiles and it’s boxing.

Also TV networks would happily show an influencer/YouTube football match if the they gave them the opportunity. They care about ratings which based on the 60k attendance and online views it would deliver. They wouldn’t be able to compete with the amount of views they had from streaming it on YouTube though which is the modern world.

What you said is there, go back and read and anyone else can do the same, you said that boxing in the US is too 'competitive' for Dana White to compete in and that purses for top fighters have been but that's always has been the case, when has that not been the case? Once you had a champion per one of the eight weight divisions and now you have 56 or whatever - this is the easiest time in boxing history for him to be a promoter - he has the means, he doesn't have to deal with the mafia, he doesn't have to deal with newspaper editors and newspaper decisions, colour bars, male only dominance and of course we have the internet and satellite/cable TV with PPV's that reach every part of the planet, also, boxing is now more than a worldwide sport than it ever has been in anytime in history - we don't have to go back 40 years and boxers didn't come from Kazakhstan or Latvia or the Congo or that they held big fights in Poland, Saudi Arabia and China.

The top - let's be generous - the top twenty boxers earn millions whereas the rest don't - 99% of boxers don't earn megabucks which is why Mairis Bredis is shilling for a fight with Jake Paul and not Chris Billam Smith. The reason they're not earning the money they should be is because they're not fighting each other, there are too many champions, too many titles, interim, international blah blah blah - the sport is in a unholy mess and people are just switching off from it, I don't remember the last time I paid for a PPV but it was years ago - the sport isn't value for money anymore.

If influencers get PPV for solely for who are they are then they would get PPV dates for their games of football but they don't, why? Well, as we have already established, boxing and MMA are the biggest PPV draws that there is and b) to enjoy boxing - the skill level doesn't have to be as high as it would for a game of football as long as they get a good scrap - the ordinary punter is not shelling out PPV money to watch KSI clodhopper about White Hart Lane badly hoofing a ball around but they will to watch him put in a decent shift against Logan Paul - you keep saying that if they 'get the opportunity' but who is stopping them getting the 'opportunity'? A TV network has yet to 'happily' show a game as part of their schedule, I wonder why?

I ask you to quote me and one of the first things you say is..

you said that boxing in the US is too 'competitive' for Dana White to compete in

At no point did I say that!

It’s hard to have a conversation with someone when they’re reading something differently than what is written.

I said boxing is a competitive market in the Us whereby fighters are paid more than their commercial worth. Hence many networks have left the sport because they haven’t been able to generate an upside.

Of course Dana can compete. I just can’t see him/TKO wanting to at the moment given that TKo would have likely have to burn a lot of money before they make a return. When Dana got involved with the UFC, the UFC had a massive competitive advantage over the other US MMA organisations and it was well known (although not successful).

Re: a TV network not showing influencer football, it’s likely because the influencers/YouTubers are likely to get 5 or 10 times more viewers having their stuff on YouTube than a linear TV channel. Linear TV is a declining market. In the US alone, viewer numbers on linear TV were down 9% as more and more people switch to watching via digital platforms.