Was Rocky Marciano Unbeatable in the 1950's?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 08 Sep 2006, 18:51

Old Walcott, over-the-hill Charles had him on the verge of defeat.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 08 Sep 2006, 19:24

marciano KO 13 walcott

marciano W 15 charles
marciano KO 8 charles

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 08 Sep 2006, 19:26

of course with pundit......he fails to mention many of tunneys victories came against fighters who were old, battle worn, and clearly past there best days.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 08 Sep 2006, 19:27

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:of course with pundit......he fails to mention many of tunneys victories came against fighters who were old, battle worn, and clearly past there best days.

Where does it say anything about Tunney in the title of this thread?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Sep 2006, 20:06

Well Dempsey was a far sight younger than Charles, Walcott and Moore... and Louis!... Rocky was the Ricky Hatton of his day!... he liked em old!

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 08 Sep 2006, 20:36

If they could have been matched up, I would have taken Eddie Machen to beat Marciano if they fought in 57.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Sep 2006, 20:57

I think Rocky would have been too strong for Machen... remember Ingmar koed Machen in one round...

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 09 Sep 2006, 01:17

..i voted no. have nothing to add.

thismodernlove · Post by **thismodernlove** » 09 Sep 2006, 02:27

well obviously he was unbeatable, otherwise he wouldve been beaten

wat a stupid question

Aldo Pravisani · Post by **Aldo Pravisani** » 09 Sep 2006, 03:50

thismodernlove wrote:well obviously he was unbeatable, otherwise he wouldve been beaten

wat a stupid question

Have to agree: He never lost a professional fight, he won almost all by KO, therefore, as the question was formulated, he was unbeatable.

Could he have been defeated at some time or another and under different circumstances? Yes, ANYONE can be beaten.

Thunder and Lightning · Post by **Thunder and Lightning** » 09 Sep 2006, 04:34

silkov wrote:I think Rocky would have been too strong for Machen... remember Ingmar koed Machen in one round...

Yeah he did but Liston and Clevland Williams couldn't, also I think Patterson would beat Marciano if they fought he would just be to fast.

By the way nobody is unbeatable that is something Mike Tyson should have proven to as all.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 Sep 2006, 09:28

thismodernlove wrote:well obviously he was unbeatable, otherwise he wouldve been beaten

wat a stupid question

The question was about whether he unbeatable which is different than unbeaten.
I take the question to mean could any fighter who ever fought have beaten him.

barry · Post by **barry** » 09 Sep 2006, 09:49

Could someone have beaten him...sure...did someone beat him...no, so he was unbeatable in the 50s!

I think Patterson could have given him a tough go, but in the end I think Marciano's power, toughness and conditioning would overtake Patterson.

Liston would have been the best bet to beat Marciano, but it most certainly would not be a sure bet.

Eddie Machen would have been a hard task also as would have Zora Folley, Tommy Jackson, Ingemar Johansson and Bob Baker!

Then there were fighters like Johnny Summerlin, Nino Valdes, Earl Walls (who could nearly knock an opponents head off), Bob Satterfield, Harold Johnson and Joey Maxim...all of those guys most likely would have given Marciano a hell of fight, but whether they could have out lasted Marciano is doubtful as very few had the conditioning to match Marciano.

Aside from Liston, one fighter that I think could have beaten Marciano was Harold Johnson. Johnson could easily box circles around Marciano and if he could keep most away on the outside and not take any hard shots cleanly to the head then Johnson would likely outpoint Marciano by a pretty good margin, but if he tried to fight Marciano it would most likely be a short night for Johnson!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 09 Sep 2006, 10:17

I think Liston would have beaten Marciano, his jab alone would have given Rocky a lot of trouble... Rockys style was really made for him... it could well have ended up like Foreman vs Frazier... I think Patterson would have been worn down... Johnson would have had a shout but would have to last the whole 15 which could be difficult... I think Cleveland Williams would have had a chance early, Williams was a fast starter while Rocky was a slow starter, if Cleveland got to him early I could see him winning...

barry · Post by **barry** » 09 Sep 2006, 10:30

I failed to mention Williams...meant to though!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 09 Sep 2006, 10:36

One thing about Williams that people often overlook is how good he was technically, and also that he was damn fast for his size, especially regarding hand speed... not the best of chins perhaps but I wouldnt say that it was as bad as some say... even at 37 he still managed to go 10 rounds with Chuvalo...

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 09 Sep 2006, 13:36

..barry..your listing of earl walls brings up a fighter who is virtually forgotten today......could box a bit and bang a lot!!!! his career was cut short......i think it was detached retina(s) but my memory isn't that clear on the reason. does anyone here know more details?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 15:54

silkov wrote:One thing about Williams that people often overlook is how good he was technically, and also that he was damn fast for his size, especially regarding hand speed... not the best of chins perhaps but I wouldnt say that it was as bad as some say... even at 37 he still managed to go 10 rounds with Chuvalo...

i agree silk. people underate williams skills and speed. also they underate his durability.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 15:55

barry

im suprised u mentioned johnny summerlin. i never thought much of him other than him being a good fringe contender. i always thought there were much better contenders out there. what can you say about summerlin??

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 15:58

people remark on marciano being a slow starter....but thats the rusty slower less powerful marciano of the mid 1950s.

the peak 1951-52 faster more fire in his fists marciano was not a slow starter. he came out blazing in all of his fights flattening kid mathews in 2, layne in 6, winning the first 2 rounds vs joe louis, etc etc.

could someone in the 1950s beat marciano? yes. theres always a possibility.

however the botttom line is NO ONE OTHER THAN 58-59 LISTON BEATS A PRIME 1951-52 ROCKY MARCIANO AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 16:07

barry wrote:

Aside from Liston, one fighter that I think could have beaten Marciano was Harold Johnson. Johnson could easily box circles around Marciano and if he could keep most away on the outside and not take any hard shots cleanly to the head then Johnson would likely outpoint Marciano by a pretty good margin, but if he tried to fight Marciano it would most likely be a short night for Johnson!

barry,

i think very highly of harold johnson. he is one of the best technical boxers i have seen, very underated.

however......marciano is not easy to box circles around and outpoint. ezzard charles who i thought clearly outpointed harold johnson in 1953(a robbery) was clearly beaten on points by rocky marciano. harold didnt have the inside fighting skills, durability that ezzard had needed to survive marcianos onslaught.

johnson had a vunerable chin against the top punchers....and marciano was one of the best in heavyweight history. i think marciano will be too strong and powerful for harold. harold was tough to catch......but then again so was charles, moore, and walcott who marciano all caught and knocked out.

harold had one of the best jabs in history and this will certainly cause marcianno problems but marcianos effective parrying and crouch defense will confuse johnson. bob satterfield a small powerful slugger who fought low out of a crouch(at times) was able to beat harold johnson over 10 rounds.

marcianos volume of punches, effective aggresion makes him very hard to outpoint. we saw that vs charles in 1954 where marciano won 9 rounds.

even if this fight goes the distance(which i dont think it wont), its hard to pick against marciano. he is very tough to outpoint.

in the end, i think marciano strength,aggresion, inside fighting skills, power will be too much for johnson. even if johnson makes the championship rounds.....it will be hard to see him surviving marciano since marcianos was so deadly in the championship rounds. a tired harold trieing to match marcianos workrate and punchrate in rounds 10-15.......doesnt seem like he would be able to handle it.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 16:09

Seamus wrote:If they could have been matched up, I would have taken Eddie Machen to beat Marciano if they fought in 57.

probably in 1957 vs a far past his prime rocky marciano.......but the prime rocky marciano of the early 1950s would knockout machen. IMHO.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 16:14

Thunder and Lightning wrote:
silkov wrote:I think Rocky would have been too strong for Machen... remember Ingmar koed Machen in one round...
Yeah he did but Liston and Clevland Williams couldn't, also I think Patterson would beat Marciano if they fought he would just be to fast.

By the way nobody is unbeatable that is something Mike Tyson should have proven to as all.

liston and williams fought differently than marciano. machen matched up well vs big tall sluggers.

patterson beat a prime 51-52 marciano? this is one matchup i am very certain on marciano would win everytime. floyd is made for rocky. floyd would try to brawl rocky and the much stronger, more powerful, much more durable marciano would flatten him early.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 16:35

taking a prime rocky marciano 1951-52...............

i will do my analysis later

1958-59 sonny liston 15 unanimous marciano or marciano TKO 13 sonny liston

marciano KO 10 eddie machen- close fight until knockout
marciano KO 3 floyd patterson
marciano KO 4 zora folley
marciano TKO 7 nino valdez- one sided slaughter
marciano KO 11 clarence henry- tough tough fight
marciano TKO 9 hurricane Jackson
marciano KO 5 cleveland williams- both fighters down in a wild slugfest
marciano KO 1 satterfield
marciano KO 6 bob baker
marciano KO 7 earl walls
marciano KO 9 harold carter- tough fight
marciano KO 2 johnny summerlin
marciano TKO 4 willie bean
marciano KO 9 young jack johnson
marciano KO 5 coley wallace
marciano KO 12 harold johnson- close fight
marciano KO 3 heinz neuhas
marciano KO 8 omelio agramonte
marciano KO 4 ingemar johannsen
marciano TKO 7 mike dejohn
marciano KO 2 sid peaks
marciano TKO 8 cesar brion
marciano KO 2 roy harris
marciano KO 4 henry cooper

i could go on

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Sep 2006, 17:54

Decagon wrote:By the mid 1950s, Marciano simply didn't have enough in the tank to fight regularly. If he had, he would have lost.

yea......though rocky did have one final great preformance against top 35 heavyweight of all time archie moore, dominating moore and knocking him down 4 times. it was marcianos final great preformance and last hurrah. he picked a great note to end on.

i still think marciano would have beat anyone in 1956 had he fought in 56.....but after 1956 he would be ready to be taken as he would be badly declined by now

Was Rocky Marciano Unbeatable in the 1950's?

Was Rocky Unbeatable in 1950's?

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