Is Muhammad Ali Overrated?

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 20 Jun 2003, 11:23

Now Ask most people, even those with minimal Boxing Knowledge who the greatest boxer of all time was, you will almost certainly hear Muhammad Ali.

Now i believe that he was certainly not the greatest of all time, and believe he has become BIG time overrated.

Up until his ban, due to the Vietnam war, he was certain a good, if not great fighter, however he was not invincable, even Henry Cooper put him on the seat of his pants, and hes world title fights against the beast Sonny Liston had a extremly suspicious Smell about them to say the least.

When he hit his comeback trail after he was let back, he was successful in two fights then fought then undeafeated Champ, Joe Frazier. In this match he was beaten soundly and was knocked down in the 15th.

Then Soon after Ken Norton Beat him and in the rematches they had i also believe that Norton Won Them, however i admit the matches where close.

His Second Title Victoty against 'big' George was impressive, however i also believe that all was not right with this fight, however this is speculation and i will refrain from pursuding this.

In between, his matches against Jimmy Young and earnie Shavers where a disgrace. IMO Ali had lost both

Then he Lost his title to a novice of 8 or so victorys, although he won in the rematch, it is hardly a acheivment IMO.

Now the fights against Holmes and berbick i believe should not take away from his legacy or what he acheived, but even without that, did he really do enough to justify his great status.

Perhaps i am being too cynical, what do you guy think? i think i have presented a decent arguement, and i am not foolish, ali was a great fighter, but i do think that he and his ring skills have become overratred

Vetteguy99 · Post by **Vetteguy99** » 20 Jun 2003, 22:38

He may not be the greateest heavyweight of all time , but he is the greatest that I have ever seen. Before he retired, the first time, he
was almost unhitable, and when you look at all the world class
guys he fought, and dominated he was the best. You never saw
him face down for the count, and he fought some awsome punchers,
just read the record. Overrated your way off base on this one, but
you are a knowledgable guy and intitled to your opinion.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 21 Jun 2003, 00:08

All good points guys.

Vette, Ali was unhittable in his early career? Sorry but no. terap pointed out 3 of the biggest fights that proved it. I don't know if I would say Henry Cooper and Billy Daniels beat the s*it out of him, but Doug Jones definetly did.

Another guy who atleast deserves a shout out is Sonny Banks. After all, he did floor Ali in the first round. I laughed my ass off seeing that one.

To answer your question Tyson, Yes. Ali is VERY overrated.
Way too many damn controversial fights, it makes you wonder how many of those Herbert was responsible for buying.

Dutch Windmill · Post by **Dutch Windmill** » 21 Jun 2003, 03:10

When people think of Muhammed Ali/Cassius Clay, the think of what he stood for, not about his quality's in the ring.

Sure, he was charismatic, sure he was good for boxing, but he was beaten two times in his prime.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 21 Jun 2003, 03:13

Exactly, and the losses weren't flukes.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 21 Jun 2003, 15:55

How come the people who voted no aren't speaking out?

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 21 Jun 2003, 18:42

I did not vote because in some ways he was overrated and in some respects he has been underrated. The ways he has been overrated have been discussed already. What many who underrate him forget was:

1. His intense desire to win. Especially late in his career he had fights where lesser fighters would have quit. Broken jaw against Norton, wars against Frazier.

2. His ability to take punishment but win anyway. The body punches Foreman hit Ali with made just about everybody else coolapse and fold.

3. Although not pleasing to the eye he was the best defensive heavyweight IMO since Jack Johnson. Although the tactics he used were basically illegal fighters do what they can get away with andAli took every advantage.

4. Like it or not his hand and footspeed were unsurpassed by any heavyweight champion before or since.

I am not saying he was underrated here. I some ways he was overrated because of his political views and charisma. Just offering up an opposing view as per Tantum.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 21 Jun 2003, 19:33

Now this topic is getting intresting!

I agree with Jimmy Young having faster hands, I saw that.

I haven't seen the Doug Jones fight in a long time though, so I can't endorse it. Ill do some research and get back to ya.

Keep the comments comming guys, we have a great conversation going here.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 21 Jun 2003, 20:42

Doug Jones and Jimmy Young were not champions. Read my post more carefully, I said champions.

However on second and third thought it can be agued that Louis, Charles and Patterson were just as fast.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 24 Jun 2003, 01:58

The record speaks for itself,,,Ali was one of the toughest most determined heavyweights who ever lived..Sometimes he looked bad and fought to the level of inferior competion like in his 1976 match with notorius stinkout artist Jimmy Young..Ali was getting on in years by that time and his motivation was questionable....In nothing fights, Ali looked like crap sometimes but in big fights he usually came big.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 24 Jun 2003, 11:11

The only fighter I ever saw look good against Jimmy Young was Gerry Cooney and we all know where he rates among the all-timers...

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 25 Jun 2003, 00:41

Terap , is there any fight you've ever seen that you didn't think was fixed.???
Using your reasoning, Who's to say that Ron Lyle and George Foreman didn't go into the tank against Young...Maybe the "real" Young was the one who got his ass kicked by Cooney...
If Young and Doug Jones were so much better than Ali hoe come they didn't accoplish more than him in their Boxing career..

I don't really think Ali is the best ever, (I'm partial to Joe Lous myself), but to suggest that he is anything less than a great fighter is a notion from another universe..

And don't give us this "I have priviledged insider information" flibertigibberish that your always laying on people..

All your offering is your subjective opinion about how this guy shoulda,woulda,coulda beat this guy with very little evidence to back up your specious claims...

Have you ever considered going into government work???
I'm sure the Bush Administration could use someone your flair for unsubstantiated innuendo..

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 25 Jun 2003, 01:17

I wish I had the uncanny ability to ignore all aspects of a post except the most irrelevant part.

Vetteguy99 · Post by **Vetteguy99** » 28 Jun 2003, 03:18

Prior to bnecoming Champion Ali was knocked down by
Banks and Cooper. He won both of those fights. he had a close fight against Doug Jones Prior to becoming Champion. From the time he Beat
Sonny to the time he was forced to retire he was the Greatest Fighter of all Time. There, I said it.

P.S. Karl Mildinberger would have beaten Tony Tua.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 28 Jun 2003, 10:39

Vetteguy99 wrote: From the time he Beat Sonny to the time he was forced to retire he was the Greatest Fighter of all Time.

Joe Louis would have KO'd Ali at any point of his career. So how the hell can you say Ali was the greatest ever?

Joe Louis hit faster, smarter, harder. Without question.

The only way Ali can beat Joe Louis, is in a video game that totally blows Ali, and thinks he's some sort of god. Just like Aaron Pryor said... "They had to make a machine to knock me out"

Vetteguy99 · Post by **Vetteguy99** » 28 Jun 2003, 23:10

If Billy Conn gave Joe Fitts, just think of what a 212 lb Ali
would have done.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 28 Jun 2003, 23:53

ANSWER: Given Ali a good load of "Parkinsons."

Yes your fight analysis was accurate, but that comment was in bad taste.

SugarRoyRobinson · Post by **SugarRoyRobinson** » 29 Jun 2003, 16:07

I personally think it's a bit sad seeing Muhammed Ali talk the way he does. Nearly as sad as reading Floyd Patterson's infamous interview. You should be grimacing about it, not joking.

SugarRoyRobinson · Post by **SugarRoyRobinson** » 29 Jun 2003, 16:27

terap wrote:It never hurts to know the basic techniques of boxing.

DEFENSE: Billy Conn held his hands very high.
When Conn threw a left jab (or left hook), his right hand was up high, guarding his face.

When Conn threw a right hand, his left hand was up high, guarding his face.

Former lightheavyweight champion Jimmy Slattery said after seeing Conn fight, "How can he fight with his hands so high?"

MEANWHILE: Ali held his hands low.
He would have gotten clobbered by Louis.

OFFENSE: Conn's main heavier punch was a left hook, which he used effectively against Louis.

MEANWHILE: Ali had no left hook---only a left slap---a totally non-professional arm punch.

IN CLOSE: Conn threw very effective, very short ripping punches in close, which he used effectively against Louis.

MEANWHILE: Ali did not fight at all in close. He used both hands to try to hold his opponent by the head or neck, and threw no punches in close.

CONCLUSION: What Billy Conn was able to do against Louis bears no relation to Ali or what Ali might have been able to do against Louis,

since Conn's offense, defense, and fighting in close were TOTALLY different from Ali's.
______________________________________________________________________

The modern boxing "experts" with their total ignorance of the most basic techniques of boxing, always fixate on weight on the scale,

YET they never notice that

185 pound Henry Cooper floored Ali with and single left hook

and 188 pound overweight lightheavyweight Doug Jones staggered Ali with his right hand as soon as their fight started.

If Jones and Cooper could do that, then what would Joe Louis have done to Ali?

ANSWER: Given Ali a good load of "Parkinsons."

Before you reply, IM NOT FLAMING WITH YOU, ARGUING OR INSULTING YOU.
I don't really have much regard for this analysis. It's more "simplistic" than "basic". First of all, I don't like your "never hurts to know the basics".

I am an AMATEUR boxer myself. AMATEUR boxers like me use hands-high stances. YES, many GREAT boxers and punches used high stances, for example the great Ruben Olivares and many others especially left-hookers. And many top-class amateurs use low stances.

Jimmy Slattery, when he said "fight" he really meant "punch". I and other AMATEURS use high stances because it's easier to block punches. If you're good at swerving, ducking and slipping than the more pro stances are better.

But Joe Louis, Robinson, Archie Moore and all the other best stylists ever(probably) mostly used a different style, right hand high and left hand in position to jab easily. Punches to the left side of the jaw are either parried or CAUGHT ON THE SHOULDER. In other words, lower stances are better for punching, higher are better for punching.

In the old days fighters had to learn the hard way(not a particularily good thing) and most learned to slip punches well. The old-school stance is the BEST FOR STRAIGHT PUNCHING, and SO IS ALI'S.

Ali's style suited HIM, he was speedy and has reflexes to swerve away and hit at the same time.

As for the infighting comment, YES sure he couldn't fight very effectively on the inside but that's because he stayed away from there.

YES, he got battered by some fighters who were not to his level, but that doesn't mean much. MOST GREAT fighters have setbacks, very often against lower-class boxers.

SugarRoyRobinson · Post by **SugarRoyRobinson** » 30 Jun 2003, 08:03

Terap, that's just.........

As Dave1armedtua said, you have an uncanny ability for ignoring all the relevant parts.

As for the pro boxing thing. I LAUGH at that. As if you've had a pro fight.
You know, pro boxing is not EVERYTHING.
You've doubtfully entered a gym.

As for me, "not understanding" your stupid post, how about you entering a gym.

And you have an EXCELLENT way of TWISTING things around. I said that Archie Moore, Joe Louis had a SIMILAR STANCE. And they DID, right hand high, left hand in position to jab. Obviously you never saw any of their fights.

Olivares was a left-hooker. YES, he liked the body-left-hook. WATCH his fights, you'll see he has his hands HIGH, unlike what you say.

Do me a favour, terap. Stop acting like your a pro boxer(that is "rich").

You say I obviously don't know the basic techniques of boxing, YOU DO NOT QUOTE, YOU DO NOT BACK YOUR (STUPID) COMMENT UP.

What the hell IS wrong with you terap? If you're having stress problems then don't come here and try and let it all out. Go to one of those "hacker" chatrooms were you'll meet some of your fellow 13yr-olds who whine and act like they know everything, just like you.

Of course, your a pro boxer and not to be argued with.

"That is rich".

If you think I cannot make a comment just because I'm an amateur boxer, you've obviously not passed the amateur stage and therefore are not a pro.

Again, you're great at twisting things around.

Jimmy Slattery said "how can he fight like that". Well, you can block like that? You can evade like that? But it's harder to punch like that, just as I said. You obviously didn't get what Slattery said.

I may not be a pro "like you" but I think I know a bit about the science, unlike you.

SugarRoyRobinson · Post by **SugarRoyRobinson** » 30 Jun 2003, 10:15

I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS!!!

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS???

YOU ARE STILL AT IT?

CAN ANYONE SEE HOW STUPID THIS GUY IS???

Unbelieveable, absolutely unbelievable. Ignores everything and thinks he's right making STUPID comments. Jesus, the stupidity, the stupidity. I have nothing against stupid people but when they try to act like they know more it's just annoying.

AGAIN, WHY DOESN'T ANYONE ELSE REALISE THIS?

Robinson-----

You are an amateur.

You exposed that for all to see

once you started discussing the "techniques" of boxing---

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again.

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 30 Jun 2003, 17:46

Damn, this thread is getting out of control...

However, I agree with terap's comparison between Conn and Ali. They were not exactly the same style, really. Like terap said, Conn was a much better in-fighter and had the better left hook, and that's what was giving Louis so much trouble in that fight.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 30 Jun 2003, 17:55

SugarRoyRobinson wrote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again.

Keep saying it, at some point you might start to believe it yourself

SugarRoyRobinson · Post by **SugarRoyRobinson** » 01 Jul 2003, 09:34

Broncano, if you make stupid comments like that, it's best not say anything at all.

Look, terap is a MASTERFUL TROLL. Has NO ONE ever heard of "career trolls"? They skip out everything in the post except the most irrelevant part.

For example, if I said, "I'm sorry Terap but you're totally wrong". Terap would quote the "I'm sorry" part and say, "Apology accepted".

If you are saying I'm trying to convince myself and therefore THINK TERAP IS RIGHT, you may be a troll yourself.

Grey · Post by **Grey** » 01 Jul 2003, 13:57

Hey guys, keep it clean.