>>>notquitesomuchlightmeddlkrugerplusalittlebitmore weight division of the Palmerston Street Around the Corner just up from Hight Street championship<<<
Well....I would probably put that belt in linal status...it's certainly as legit as any of the others....and the sad thing is...I'm not joking.
I've been hearing quite a bit about this young Russian kid, 20 years old, from Russia Denis Boystov, but he has yet to step up and fight a credible journeyman. He has a lot of first round knockouts and is undfeated, but then again...so is David Rodriguez and JD Chapman!
WILL THERE EVER BE ANOTHER GREAT HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION???
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kick asner
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 692
- Joined: 02 Oct 2005, 00:01
The argument that would be fighters will opt for the NFL does have some merit. Example Notre Dame great Tom Zbikowski may fight a few more fights but will probably end up going to the NFL. Currently stands at 1 and 0 as a pro, that fight being a quick knockout. Just a throw in, Fighting Irish 41 Penn State17. 
Zbikowski had another big game all the more reason to believe he will choose the NFL. But still you should have enough guys who want to be fighters. I don't think guys like Ali, Foreman, or Frazier would have played in the NFL had they not been fighters. So it remains a mystery. I do look for the United States to produce some better heavyweights than the current crop. Sooner or later someone will emerge.
Zbikowski had another big game all the more reason to believe he will choose the NFL. But still you should have enough guys who want to be fighters. I don't think guys like Ali, Foreman, or Frazier would have played in the NFL had they not been fighters. So it remains a mystery. I do look for the United States to produce some better heavyweights than the current crop. Sooner or later someone will emerge.I always hear the arguments that the size of today's HWs is more of a liability than a strength, but I'm not sure I agree with that. True, there aren't many truly skilled big HWs at the moment, but I'm not convinced size is the real issue.
Valuev is a perfect example. It appears to me he wins BECAUSE of his size, not because he's actually that good of a fighter. But what if he had gotten started at a younger age? What if he'd learned long before now to use all that reach, to develop a consistently good jab, to learn how to sit down on hs punches, etc. etc.?
I believe it's not out of the question that some young big man is going to come along some day with the kind of skills and ability to rip through the division similar to the way Tyson did before he eventually lost his way. There's no one like that now, but some day it's going to happen. The fact that HWs are bigger than ever is just a biproduct of people in general being bigger than ever. In other sports, athletes are not only huge but highly skilled as well.
What makes it so impossible for that to one day be the case in boxing?
Valuev is a perfect example. It appears to me he wins BECAUSE of his size, not because he's actually that good of a fighter. But what if he had gotten started at a younger age? What if he'd learned long before now to use all that reach, to develop a consistently good jab, to learn how to sit down on hs punches, etc. etc.?
I believe it's not out of the question that some young big man is going to come along some day with the kind of skills and ability to rip through the division similar to the way Tyson did before he eventually lost his way. There's no one like that now, but some day it's going to happen. The fact that HWs are bigger than ever is just a biproduct of people in general being bigger than ever. In other sports, athletes are not only huge but highly skilled as well.
What makes it so impossible for that to one day be the case in boxing?
When I was a kid I remember how we used to wish that the Soviets would allow boxers to turn pro. It won't be an overnight thing as the infrastructure and the knowledge has to continue to develop. It may be that these new nations will be the life blood of the game in the future.
Over in the UK the disdain for the Area and National titles is such a shame. A British title actually means a lot more to me than a WBU or IBO or ZZZ title. Fighters used to be proud of the Lonsdale belt or the EBU title or the Commonwealth title. Nowadays they seem to jump straight into a world title fiasco against a nobody. Those local rivalries made the sport great. In the UK at the moment Hatton-Witter is a winner, but I doubt they'll ever square off.
I think post Ray Leonard there is an overemphasis on jumping around the weights. So may of the top fighters bounce up and down with the benefit of nutritional advances and drugs, as a way of avoiding anyone remotely dangerous. Mayweather for all his ability is starting to look like a fraud in the way he is conducting his career. Most boxers can operate between 2 or 3 weight divisions and with 4-5 titles around thats up to 15 ways of avoiding any threat.
I also believe that the public always really warmed to fighters. In the UK the BBC have a sports personality of the year and boxers have always done well. It is voted for by the public and boxers are probably over-represented. The problem these days is that everyone wants to be a trash-talking idiot. Ali was witty. Duran came from an impoverished background. Mayweather grew up in a comfortable middle class home... There's room in boxing for pantomime villains (Eubank, Benn), braggards (Ali) and all of the other personalities but these days we seem to just get clowns with nothing to say. If everyone is a loudmouth then nobody will be willing to listen. The popularity of boxers has waned dramatically.
We don't just want one great fighter we need a few all at once, and unlike the 90s crew (Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson and Bowe) they actually need to fight one another in their primes.
Over in the UK the disdain for the Area and National titles is such a shame. A British title actually means a lot more to me than a WBU or IBO or ZZZ title. Fighters used to be proud of the Lonsdale belt or the EBU title or the Commonwealth title. Nowadays they seem to jump straight into a world title fiasco against a nobody. Those local rivalries made the sport great. In the UK at the moment Hatton-Witter is a winner, but I doubt they'll ever square off.
I think post Ray Leonard there is an overemphasis on jumping around the weights. So may of the top fighters bounce up and down with the benefit of nutritional advances and drugs, as a way of avoiding anyone remotely dangerous. Mayweather for all his ability is starting to look like a fraud in the way he is conducting his career. Most boxers can operate between 2 or 3 weight divisions and with 4-5 titles around thats up to 15 ways of avoiding any threat.
I also believe that the public always really warmed to fighters. In the UK the BBC have a sports personality of the year and boxers have always done well. It is voted for by the public and boxers are probably over-represented. The problem these days is that everyone wants to be a trash-talking idiot. Ali was witty. Duran came from an impoverished background. Mayweather grew up in a comfortable middle class home... There's room in boxing for pantomime villains (Eubank, Benn), braggards (Ali) and all of the other personalities but these days we seem to just get clowns with nothing to say. If everyone is a loudmouth then nobody will be willing to listen. The popularity of boxers has waned dramatically.
We don't just want one great fighter we need a few all at once, and unlike the 90s crew (Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson and Bowe) they actually need to fight one another in their primes.
re
Here's his link:
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=267630
He is not a huge heavyweight...about normal. I wonder what kind of amateur background he has...if any?
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=267630
He is not a huge heavyweight...about normal. I wonder what kind of amateur background he has...if any?
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
In my opinion, there will only be a good HW champion again if there was a man who would stay at his own weight and not bulk up or balloon up heavier than what he should be. Case in point, James Toney came into the HW ranks at 215-220 when he faced Holyfield and did a magnificent performance. Now he's been coming in at 230+ and is lacking in his performances.
This era of Super-Heavyweights are men who should come in at a natural 245 but are competing at 250-260 and more. Now I ain't saying there couldn't be a great big heavyweight champion, but I think there is too much bulk there. These guys get winded after four rounds.
In the 70's a HW was a finely tuned 215 pounds, hell George Foreman at 6'4" and 220 pounds was considered large for the time. AND the men back then had the endurance to go 15 rounds, these guys get winded after four, have to stall for another four and then go hard at the final four rounds.
Looking at the current crop of HW's who are wearing the belt straps, the one with the most ability who I could see possibly unifying the titles would be Sergei Liahkovich, because he has good ring generalship, has fast hands, can take a good shot and has heart, of course his win over Brewster could be a fluke. The second would be possibly the iffy chinned Wladimir Klitschko, he has it all, size, hand speed, good skills...just lack of chin. Of course I would say that Maskaev and Valuev would come in higher than the other two, but Maskaev is getting older and Valuev hasn't really fought anybody.
I'd think a man around 6' and 220 with a solid chin and skills, really mix in combinations and have head movement, and of course some power, could dominate the current division...take for example Cruiserweight titlist Jean-Mack Mormeck. I think he would do well at HW, and if matched carefully he could take on any of the titlists in time.
This era of Super-Heavyweights are men who should come in at a natural 245 but are competing at 250-260 and more. Now I ain't saying there couldn't be a great big heavyweight champion, but I think there is too much bulk there. These guys get winded after four rounds.
In the 70's a HW was a finely tuned 215 pounds, hell George Foreman at 6'4" and 220 pounds was considered large for the time. AND the men back then had the endurance to go 15 rounds, these guys get winded after four, have to stall for another four and then go hard at the final four rounds.
Looking at the current crop of HW's who are wearing the belt straps, the one with the most ability who I could see possibly unifying the titles would be Sergei Liahkovich, because he has good ring generalship, has fast hands, can take a good shot and has heart, of course his win over Brewster could be a fluke. The second would be possibly the iffy chinned Wladimir Klitschko, he has it all, size, hand speed, good skills...just lack of chin. Of course I would say that Maskaev and Valuev would come in higher than the other two, but Maskaev is getting older and Valuev hasn't really fought anybody.
I'd think a man around 6' and 220 with a solid chin and skills, really mix in combinations and have head movement, and of course some power, could dominate the current division...take for example Cruiserweight titlist Jean-Mack Mormeck. I think he would do well at HW, and if matched carefully he could take on any of the titlists in time.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
I agree mostly with Decagon. This is a weak field, period. Being realistic we should just start hoping for good competetive matchups than the next Tyson. The hype has all gone to Russia, but I've seen a good deal of both Povetkin and Boystov, and neither of them are great HWs in the making. Povetkin is a solid all around guy but I could see experienced American gatekeepers like Barrett, Austin, or even Davaryll Williamson upsetting him. He has very slow feet, average defense, above average power but not one-punch KO power, and his physique suggests stamina issues once he starts going past 6 rounds.
Of the current crop, I see Lyakovich having the most potential as being the number 1 guy, although he's not a great fighter himself. He has solid skills, has shown a pretty good chin and toughness under pressure, decent power, and recently good stamina (although I hope he doesn't get fat as he has in the past)
Wlad is also the next best thing, but his very poor chin makes him an upset waiting to happen every night he steps in the ring. His defense is also almost based entirely on his very good reflexes. As he gets deeper into his 30s, he won't get away with so much.
Sergui-Wlad is THE fight by far to make in the HW division.
Toney sans the injuries and the weight issues could've been the man in the post-Lewis era but that is no history. At 38, he's getting long in the tooth, and he'll never fight under 230 lbs again. He has a few more fights left but he's gone in a couple of years.
Other fights that, while being far from displays of endurance and skill, could be fun are:
Toney-Valuev
Wlad-Valuev
Peter-Toney II
Masgaev-Ibragimov
Call me crazy but I'd still really love to see Toney-Byrd.
Of the current crop, I see Lyakovich having the most potential as being the number 1 guy, although he's not a great fighter himself. He has solid skills, has shown a pretty good chin and toughness under pressure, decent power, and recently good stamina (although I hope he doesn't get fat as he has in the past)
Wlad is also the next best thing, but his very poor chin makes him an upset waiting to happen every night he steps in the ring. His defense is also almost based entirely on his very good reflexes. As he gets deeper into his 30s, he won't get away with so much.
Sergui-Wlad is THE fight by far to make in the HW division.
Toney sans the injuries and the weight issues could've been the man in the post-Lewis era but that is no history. At 38, he's getting long in the tooth, and he'll never fight under 230 lbs again. He has a few more fights left but he's gone in a couple of years.
Other fights that, while being far from displays of endurance and skill, could be fun are:
Toney-Valuev
Wlad-Valuev
Peter-Toney II
Masgaev-Ibragimov
Call me crazy but I'd still really love to see Toney-Byrd.
I didn't say they were the future of the HW division, just part of it. Bermaine Stiverne and David Cadieux. Give them a few years and they might be something.The Great John L wrote:OK, I give up. Who are these 2 Canadians that may be the future of the HW division?Cap wrote:There are two young prospects in Canada who may one day make some noise. They are green, but given time and the right training and who knows what they might accomplish.
Cap
Cap
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
What the organizations should do is try and agree to make a HW unification tourney. Liahkovich, Klitschko, Valuev, Maskaev all facing against eachother to determine an undisputed champion, and while this is going on there should be a number one contenders tournament.
Forget these long drug out 'mandatory' defenses and crap...let's get business done and let the main stream once again know who the TRUE champion is. Of course, there is the possibility that neither of these men would ever be considered true champions since they never won the belts from either Lewis or Vitali Klitschko.
The only two men who can lay somewhat a claim to being a 'true' champion is Wladimir Klitschko by beating Chris Byrd, who reigned for four forgettable years, and of course, Nicolay Valuev who won a controversial decision over 2x champion John Ruiz.
Irregardless, exceptance or not, we need a SINGLE champion to clean this mess up. At least that would be step ONE in the long recovery of the division. As far as prospects is concerned, I think possibly the following men may be the best of the division, other than of course the alphabet title holders:
1. Samuel Peter
2. Calvin Brock
3. Ruslan Chageav- still a question mark in the division but is impressive so far
4. James Toney
5. Joe Mesi
Really out of those 5, of my opinion anways, Peter and Brock should collide to determine the number one contender for the undisputed championship. Chageav is to face off against John Ruiz supposedly in the near future, and the winner would truly be another good test for the newly crowned undisputed champion. As far as Toney is concerned, he has it all, but just gets so friggin far out of shape. Mesi at one time looked like he could have possibly went places, but then again, despite his comeback, he has yet to show he is becoming his former self after a two year leave.
Maybe a cross-roads match between Toney and Mesi would be interesting, to see who really is 'deserving' of a shot: The loud mouth fat boy who says hes the best but failed to impress in his last few outings? Or the punch drunk fighter who has a questionable chin, but the heart and determination of a bear?
That's a thing I think people need to look into, FIGHTS THAT PEOPLE WANT TO SEE, or at least fights that are interesting...we don't want to see bore fests like Byrd-Holyfield or Ruiz-Johnson...people want to see Klitschko take on Maskaev, or Rahman take on Valuev, important fights.
But then again, this is all a dream...for I don't see the HW picture changing until Don King, who controls most of the top men in the division, dies and that purses are cut shorter---it's ridiculous how much fighters are paid, all it does is give them more idle time and get out of shape.
Believe me, if the purses were cut, we'd see at least 3-4 title fights a year, rather than 1 or 2 defenses.
Forget these long drug out 'mandatory' defenses and crap...let's get business done and let the main stream once again know who the TRUE champion is. Of course, there is the possibility that neither of these men would ever be considered true champions since they never won the belts from either Lewis or Vitali Klitschko.
The only two men who can lay somewhat a claim to being a 'true' champion is Wladimir Klitschko by beating Chris Byrd, who reigned for four forgettable years, and of course, Nicolay Valuev who won a controversial decision over 2x champion John Ruiz.
Irregardless, exceptance or not, we need a SINGLE champion to clean this mess up. At least that would be step ONE in the long recovery of the division. As far as prospects is concerned, I think possibly the following men may be the best of the division, other than of course the alphabet title holders:
1. Samuel Peter
2. Calvin Brock
3. Ruslan Chageav- still a question mark in the division but is impressive so far
4. James Toney
5. Joe Mesi
Really out of those 5, of my opinion anways, Peter and Brock should collide to determine the number one contender for the undisputed championship. Chageav is to face off against John Ruiz supposedly in the near future, and the winner would truly be another good test for the newly crowned undisputed champion. As far as Toney is concerned, he has it all, but just gets so friggin far out of shape. Mesi at one time looked like he could have possibly went places, but then again, despite his comeback, he has yet to show he is becoming his former self after a two year leave.
Maybe a cross-roads match between Toney and Mesi would be interesting, to see who really is 'deserving' of a shot: The loud mouth fat boy who says hes the best but failed to impress in his last few outings? Or the punch drunk fighter who has a questionable chin, but the heart and determination of a bear?
That's a thing I think people need to look into, FIGHTS THAT PEOPLE WANT TO SEE, or at least fights that are interesting...we don't want to see bore fests like Byrd-Holyfield or Ruiz-Johnson...people want to see Klitschko take on Maskaev, or Rahman take on Valuev, important fights.
But then again, this is all a dream...for I don't see the HW picture changing until Don King, who controls most of the top men in the division, dies and that purses are cut shorter---it's ridiculous how much fighters are paid, all it does is give them more idle time and get out of shape.
Believe me, if the purses were cut, we'd see at least 3-4 title fights a year, rather than 1 or 2 defenses.
Wow! That's a sad-looking bunch. You might as well throw in JF Bergeron and "...that other guy with the hair who throws punches..."! Holy Smoke! The problem now is you've got a handful of heavies who no one outside of this forum has ever heard of, all trying to protect their 25-0 records against dive-artists (Hey! That takes talent.). These young(ish) guys should be battling each other to get into the top ten. There was actually a time when being a top ten contender meant something. Of course, that was mainly before the proliferation of the hilarious bozos known as the Alphabet Soup Boyz.
I follow boxing more than Joe Average Citizen, and I can't name any of the guys outside of the top maybe 15 heavies. I see them once a year on TSN fighting Fred Shmedley from Columbus, Ohio (or was it Georgia?) and then they're dim memories. Nowadays, heavyweights fight about three times a year, and every second or third year they might fight a guy you've seen before.
We enjoy a level of instant mass communication greater than anything before in the history of our species, and yet boxing was more popular in the days before radio!
Cap
P.S. As for cutting their purses, wouldn't daily floggings or a stint in the "Hotbox" work just as well? Yassuh, Boss!
I follow boxing more than Joe Average Citizen, and I can't name any of the guys outside of the top maybe 15 heavies. I see them once a year on TSN fighting Fred Shmedley from Columbus, Ohio (or was it Georgia?) and then they're dim memories. Nowadays, heavyweights fight about three times a year, and every second or third year they might fight a guy you've seen before.
We enjoy a level of instant mass communication greater than anything before in the history of our species, and yet boxing was more popular in the days before radio!
Cap
P.S. As for cutting their purses, wouldn't daily floggings or a stint in the "Hotbox" work just as well? Yassuh, Boss!