Tyson Fury … how good is he?

[ironbeard]

I strongly disagree with those who consider this a poor era of HW boxing. On the contrary, this is a strong era. It has been for about 5 years:

Usyk
Fury
AJ
Parker
Hrgovic
Zhang
Kabayel
Anderson
Dubois
Wilder
Joyce
Ajagba
Bakole
Sanchez
Ruiz Jr
Huni
Whyte

It is a relatively deep HW div. The top end has more than a handful of fighters who could compete and possibly win belts in any era.

It really isn’t.
“Possibly Win belts in any era?” Possibly is the word there but,
Who and what era?

Every era, including the late 80s through early 2000s rampant steroid era.

[polecateddy]

Without going through it all you know in the 1990’s a lot of days fighters would have been culled. Joseph Parker probably would have had his brain rearranged multiple times by David Tua and might never have got anywhere internationally. I don’t really think for a second Wilder wouldn’t have been exposed over and over again. Joshua has a Michael Grant night written all over him. You could go on!

[MasterG]

In terms of British heavyweights I'm going to say below Herbie Hide.

Now im thinking about Scott Welch, Fury turned out to be better than Welch but early on in their careers I think Welch was better. I think he was better than Julius Francis but not as good as the Danny Williams who beat Mike Tyson. Could a best Fury have beaten a best Mike Tyson, hell no! Not saying that Williams fought a best MT. I give him better than Derek Williams but not as good as Bruno.

These questions are very difficult to answer as any boxer in any era can only beat what's in front of him and what's available at the time.

I possibly would rank him around the Fransico Diaminami (sorry bad spelling) level.

Never rated Fury as a boxer, never.

[si7dog7]

I strongly disagree with those who consider this a poor era of HW boxing. On the contrary, this is a strong era. It has been for about 5 years:

Usyk
Fury
AJ
Parker
Hrgovic
Zhang
Kabayel
Anderson
Dubois
Wilder
Joyce
Ajagba
Bakole
Sanchez
Ruiz Jr
Huni
Whyte

It is a relatively deep HW div. The top end has more than a handful of fighters who could compete and possibly win belts in any era.

It really isn’t.
“Possibly Win belts in any era?” Possibly is the word there but,
Who and what era?

Every era, including the late 80s through early 2000s rampant steroid era.

[ironbeard]

It really isn’t.
“Possibly Win belts in any era?” Possibly is the word there but,
Who and what era?

Every era, including the late 80s through early 2000s rampant steroid era.

The World’s Champion Boxer - Oleksandr Usyk, Fury, AJ, Parker, Hrgovic, Kabayel, Dubois, Whyte, and Wilder could compete and possibly be belt holders in every era since 1885; especially in the late 80s through 2000s.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Dubois? Whyte? They might have very briefly held a belt, but they would have been beaten by lots of people

[si7dog7]

Every era, including the late 80s through early 2000s rampant steroid era.

The World’s Champion Boxer - Oleksandr Usyk, Fury, AJ, Parker, Hrgovic, Kabayel, Dubois, Whyte, and Wilder could compete and possibly be belt holders in every era since 1885; especially in the late 80s through 2000s.

Funny troll.

[ironbeard]

Dubois? Whyte? They might have very briefly held a belt, but they would have been beaten by lots of people

They could compete in any era, as could Chisora, btw.

[ironbeard]

The World’s Champion Boxer - Oleksandr Usyk, Fury, AJ, Parker, Hrgovic, Kabayel, Dubois, Whyte, and Wilder could compete and possibly be belt holders in every era since 1885; especially in the late 80s through 2000s.

Funny troll.

Add Chisora and Takam to the list.

[si7dog7]

The World’s Champion Boxer - Oleksandr Usyk, Fury, AJ, Parker, Hrgovic, Kabayel, Dubois, Whyte, and Wilder could compete and possibly be belt holders in every era since 1885; especially in the late 80s through 2000s.

Funny troll.

Add Chisora and Takam to the list.

Yep. They’d hang with Sonny Liston. Joe Louis and all. Del Boy v George Foreman would have played out well.

[ironbeard]

Funny troll.

Add Chisora and Takam to the list.

Yep. They’d hang with Sonny Liston. Joe Louis and all. Del Boy v George Foreman would have played out well.

Don’t cherrypick, fool. They would be competitive and potentially earn a belt, like Francesco Damiani did v Johnny du Plooy, and Buster Douglas did v the allegedly invincible Iron Mike, and Michael Moorer did v Bert Cooper, and Tommy Morrison did v George Foreman, and Seldon did v Tucker, and Moorer did v Schulz, and Akinwande did v Williams.

All of the current fighters I have named could have qualified for Joe Louis’s bum of the month club. Usyk quite possibly would have defeated him.

Need I continue? Because I could go on all day.

[si7dog7]

Add Chisora and Takam to the list.

Yep. They’d hang with Sonny Liston. Joe Louis and all. Del Boy v George Foreman would have played out well.

Don’t cherrypick, fool. They would be competitive and potentially earn a belt, like Francesco Damiani did v Johnny du Plooy, and Buster Douglas did v the allegedly invincible Iron Mike, and Michael Moorer did v Bert Cooper, and Tommy Morrison did v George Foreman, and Seldon did v Tucker, and Moorer did v Schulz, and Akinwande did v Williams.

All of the current fighters I have named could have qualified for Joe Louis’s bum of the month club. Usyk quite possibly would have defeated him.

Need I continue? Because I could go on all day.

You really couldn’t. Putting your list up . Keep taking the bugle pal.

[si7dog7]

Yep. They’d hang with Sonny Liston. Joe Louis and all. Del Boy v George Foreman would have played out well.

Don’t cherrypick, fool. They would be competitive and potentially earn a belt, like Francesco Damiani did v Johnny du Plooy, and Buster Douglas did v the allegedly invincible Iron Mike, and Michael Moorer did v Bert Cooper, and Tommy Morrison did v George Foreman, and Seldon did v Tucker, and Moorer did v Schulz, and Akinwande did v Williams.

All of the current fighters I have named could have qualified for Joe Louis’s bum of the month club. Usyk quite possibly would have defeated him.

Need I continue? Because I could go on all day.

You really couldn’t. Putting your list up . Keep taking the bugle pal.

Seldon?

[Fray Bentos]

Add Chisora and Takam to the list.

Yep. They’d hang with Sonny Liston. Joe Louis and all. Del Boy v George Foreman would have played out well.

Don’t cherrypick, fool. They would be competitive and potentially earn a belt, like Francesco Damiani did v Johnny du Plooy, and Buster Douglas did v the allegedly invincible Iron Mike, and Michael Moorer did v Bert Cooper, and Tommy Morrison did v George Foreman, and Seldon did v Tucker, and Moorer did v Schulz, and Akinwande did v Williams.

All of the current fighters I have named could have qualified for Joe Louis’s bum of the month club. Usyk quite possibly would have defeated him.

Need I continue? Because I could go on all day.

I agree with what you're saying, Tanz,

There is more depth to heavyweight boxing today than probably than there ever has been because of the fall of the Iron Curtain and professional boxing in that part of the world has fully matured - Jeff Ryan - one of the best boxing writers ever wrote about this in the late 90's that heavyweight boxing before Lennox Lewis was an American sporting endeavour like the World Series of baseball - that the heavyweight champion was meant to be an American and the odd limey or South African or South American would be invited to compete but not took too seriously. These days, the best fighters north of 200 pounds can compete wherever they are from - Nigeria, China, the Pacific Islands, Kazakhstan - nothing to stop any of them chasing the dream and the gold but that wasn't always the case.

These days, the best heavyweights turn over - there are very few Teofilo Stevenson's these days who are refusing to turn over - even in Cuba - I think the problem is that we don't get to see them fight each other like we once did (with the advent of PPV) and the interest in boxing just isn't the same with the advances MMA and UFC are making - the depth of boxing seems diluted because the market share in combat sports is diluted - I think that's the problem.

[si7dog7]

Yep. They’d hang with Sonny Liston. Joe Louis and all. Del Boy v George Foreman would have played out well.

Don’t cherrypick, fool. They would be competitive and potentially earn a belt, like Francesco Damiani did v Johnny du Plooy, and Buster Douglas did v the allegedly invincible Iron Mike, and Michael Moorer did v Bert Cooper, and Tommy Morrison did v George Foreman, and Seldon did v Tucker, and Moorer did v Schulz, and Akinwande did v Williams.

All of the current fighters I have named could have qualified for Joe Louis’s bum of the month club. Usyk quite possibly would have defeated him.

Need I continue? Because I could go on all day.

I agree with what you're saying, Tanz,

There is more depth to heavyweight boxing today than probably than there ever has been because of the fall of the Iron Curtain and professional boxing in that part of the world has fully matured - Jeff Ryan - one of the best boxing writers ever wrote about this in the late 90's that heavyweight boxing before Lennox Lewis was an American sporting endeavour like the World Series of baseball - that the heavyweight champion was meant to be an American and the odd limey or South African or South American would be invited to compete but not took too seriously.

These days, the best heavyweights turn over - there are very few Teofilo Stevenson's these days who are refusing to turn over - even in Cuba - I think the problem is that we don't get to see them fight each other like we once did (with the advent of PPV) and the interest in boxing just isn't the same with the advances MMA and UFC are making - the depth of boxing seems diluted because the market share in combat sports is diluted - I think that's the problem.

Been eating too many of your pies in the tin pal tonight. The King’s English might need to be employed.

What is this nonsense?

[Fray Bentos]

Don’t cherrypick, fool. They would be competitive and potentially earn a belt, like Francesco Damiani did v Johnny du Plooy, and Buster Douglas did v the allegedly invincible Iron Mike, and Michael Moorer did v Bert Cooper, and Tommy Morrison did v George Foreman, and Seldon did v Tucker, and Moorer did v Schulz, and Akinwande did v Williams.

All of the current fighters I have named could have qualified for Joe Louis’s bum of the month club. Usyk quite possibly would have defeated him.

Need I continue? Because I could go on all day.

I agree with what you're saying, Tanz,

There is more depth to heavyweight boxing today than probably than there ever has been because of the fall of the Iron Curtain and professional boxing in that part of the world has fully matured - Jeff Ryan - one of the best boxing writers ever wrote about this in the late 90's that heavyweight boxing before Lennox Lewis was an American sporting endeavour like the World Series of baseball - that the heavyweight champion was meant to be an American and the odd limey or South African or South American would be invited to compete but not took too seriously.

These days, the best heavyweights turn over - there are very few Teofilo Stevenson's these days who are refusing to turn over - even in Cuba - I think the problem is that we don't get to see them fight each other like we once did (with the advent of PPV) and the interest in boxing just isn't the same with the advances MMA and UFC are making - the depth of boxing seems diluted because the market share in combat sports is diluted - I think that's the problem.

Been eating too many of your pies in the tin pal tonight. The King’s English might need to be employed.

What is this nonsense?

Que?

And don't be so rude, there's no need for it.

[si7dog7]

I agree with what you're saying, Tanz,

There is more depth to heavyweight boxing today than probably than there ever has been because of the fall of the Iron Curtain and professional boxing in that part of the world has fully matured - Jeff Ryan - one of the best boxing writers ever wrote about this in the late 90's that heavyweight boxing before Lennox Lewis was an American sporting endeavour like the World Series of baseball - that the heavyweight champion was meant to be an American and the odd limey or South African or South American would be invited to compete but not took too seriously.

These days, the best heavyweights turn over - there are very few Teofilo Stevenson's these days who are refusing to turn over - even in Cuba - I think the problem is that we don't get to see them fight each other like we once did (with the advent of PPV) and the interest in boxing just isn't the same with the advances MMA and UFC are making - the depth of boxing seems diluted because the market share in combat sports is diluted - I think that's the problem.

Been eating too many of your pies in the tin pal tonight. The King’s English might need to be employed.

What is this nonsense?

Que?

And don't be so rude, there's no need for it.

It’s just a joke
We do that sometimes
Virtual hug. It’s just a boxing forum.

[Fray Bentos]

Been eating too many of your pies in the tin pal tonight. The King’s English might need to be employed.

What is this nonsense?

Que?

And don't be so rude, there's no need for it.

It’s just a joke
We do that sometimes
Virtual hug. It’s just a boxing forum.

OK, then debate the point.

Back when Ironbeard was watching boxing - I don't know how long you have been watching boxing for but there was dross then - it wasn't all Ali vs Frazier, Alfredo Evangelista got two shots at the title as did Lucien Rodriguez and Lorenzo Zanon (who both fought for the title once), Leroy Jones made Tyson Fury look like Mike Weaver and Tony Tubbs and Tim Witherspoon shared a ring at a combined weight of 40 stone and over 15 rounds - I mean - it wasn't that great then - he remembers it.

Now, these days - this is true - any heavyweight boxer of any talent can turn over from anywhere in the world - before 1990 - that wasn't the case - when Ali fought and Joe Louis fought - a lot of the planets boxers couldn't turn over - which is why Teo vs Ali was mooted at the time as the superfight that never happened - these days, Teofilo Stevenson would have probably turned over.

The only amateur - I might be wrong here - of modern times who was a super/heavyweight gold medalist was Camarelle of Italy - anyone who has any ambitions of heavyweight boxing talent can now turn over and the vast majority do - that wasn't always the case, that was my point.

[ironbeard]

Yep. They’d hang with Sonny Liston. Joe Louis and all. Del Boy v George Foreman would have played out well.

Don’t cherrypick, fool. They would be competitive and potentially earn a belt, like Francesco Damiani did v Johnny du Plooy, and Buster Douglas did v the allegedly invincible Iron Mike, and Michael Moorer did v Bert Cooper, and Tommy Morrison did v George Foreman, and Seldon did v Tucker, and Moorer did v Schulz, and Akinwande did v Williams.

All of the current fighters I have named could have qualified for Joe Louis’s bum of the month club. Usyk quite possibly would have defeated him.

Need I continue? Because I could go on all day.

I agree with what you're saying, Tanz,

There is more depth to heavyweight boxing today than probably than there ever has been because of the fall of the Iron Curtain and professional boxing in that part of the world has fully matured - Jeff Ryan - one of the best boxing writers ever wrote about this in the late 90's that heavyweight boxing before Lennox Lewis was an American sporting endeavour like the World Series of baseball - that the heavyweight champion was meant to be an American and the odd limey or South African or South American would be invited to compete but not took too seriously. These days, the best fighters north of 200 pounds can compete wherever they are from - Nigeria, China, the Pacific Islands, Kazakhstan - nothing to stop any of them chasing the dream and the gold but that wasn't always the case.

These days, the best heavyweights turn over - there are very few Teofilo Stevenson's these days who are refusing to turn over - even in Cuba - I think the problem is that we don't get to see them fight each other like we once did (with the advent of PPV) and the interest in boxing just isn't the same with the advances MMA and UFC are making - the depth of boxing seems diluted because the market share in combat sports is diluted - I think that's the problem.

Well put FG.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Que?

And don't be so rude, there's no need for it.

It’s just a joke
We do that sometimes
Virtual hug. It’s just a boxing forum.

OK, then debate the point.

Back when Ironbeard was watching boxing - I don't know how long you have been watching boxing for but there was dross then - it wasn't all Ali vs Frazier, Alfredo Evangelista got two shots at the title as did Lucien Rodriguez and Lorenzo Zanon (who both fought for the title once), Leroy Jones made Tyson Fury look like Mike Weaver and Tony Tubbs and Tim Witherspoon shared a ring at a combined weight of 40 stone and over 15 rounds - I mean - it wasn't that great then - he remembers it.

Now, these days - this is true - any heavyweight boxer of any talent can turn over from anywhere in the world - before 1990 - that wasn't the case - when Ali fought and Joe Louis fought - a lot of the planets boxers couldn't turn over - which is why Teo vs Ali was mooted at the time as the superfight that never happened - these days, Teofilo Stevenson would have probably turned over.

The only amateur - I might be wrong here - of modern times who was a super/heavyweight gold medalist was Camarelle of Italy - anyone who has any ambitions of heavyweight boxing talent can now turn over and the vast majority do - that wasn't always the case, that was my point.

I can't remember where I got the figures from, I will have a look but I looked up how many fighters there were in I think it was the 1950's compare to now, and there were a lot more then, I guess because overall, there was a greater proponderence of poverty.

I think from watching a lot of older fights, there was more strength in depth skills wise, of course not everybody.


Fury would have been competitive in any era, because of his size and movement, Usyk too, Joshua I suspect would have been found wanting against some of the big punchers, Dubois, come on man, he's basic, Joyce too, Zhang.

Don't forget, there were big lumps in the past too, who did ok, but at top level, got a right pasting. Max Baer, Carnera, Willard, all were at the top, but found wanting.

I don't think I have the time to devote to this, but an interesting debate.

I did like the point about Tua though, he would have been a nightmare for many of the current crop in my opinion, beyond the very best, and worth remembering, Lewis treated him with a great deal of respect. Tua was 2nd string, I am not sure I'd fancy Dubois chances much against Tua, to name but one - Joyce? Zhang - he's good but would he have beaten many contenders in the late 90's early 2000's?

Remember that a lot of the athletic talent, especially in the US, which is after all, a very large country with well fed and large people, goes into American football and basketball - which has depleted the athletic talent pool. There are a lot of Europeans now, but look how long the likes of Chisora has been near the top, are we really suggesting Chisora is a well schooled fighter?

One of my main issues now, is tha fighters don't fight very often, and therefore don't develop their talents. I'd have to really start digging in, which is quite time consuming, to really go into this fully.

[polecateddy]

Certainly you can watch the second tier of Byrd, Golota, Tua etc and see they actually had a lot to offer and were very sharp really. The current crop I think honestly would have struggled even in that tier, never mind against Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield etc

[jamesmcdonnell]

Certainly you can watch the second tier of Byrd, Golota, Tua etc and see they actually had a lot to offer and were very sharp really. The current crop I think honestly would have struggled even in that tier, never mind against Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield etc

Golota was an absolute monster physically - very very quick, and incredibly powerful, it took someone who really should have been an ATG, to expose him, and to be fair, it was only real top drawer fighters that beat him. He wasn't mentally that tought, but not many managed to expose that.

[polecateddy]

Certainly you can watch the second tier of Byrd, Golota, Tua etc and see they actually had a lot to offer and were very sharp really. The current crop I think honestly would have struggled even in that tier, never mind against Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield etc

Golota was an absolute monster physically - very very quick, and incredibly powerful, it took someone who really should have been an ATG, to expose him, and to be fair, it was only real top drawer fighters that beat him. He wasn't mentally that tought, but not many managed to expose that.

The Lewis and Tyson performances really hurt him. But the Bowe fights were proper wars. It’s a shame people just think of those fights as just Bowe becoming over the hill, but they were tough battles! And Golota v Bryd was just a good top notch match. Shame we never got 3 Golota v Holyfields instead of Ruiz/Holyfield.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Certainly you can watch the second tier of Byrd, Golota, Tua etc and see they actually had a lot to offer and were very sharp really. The current crop I think honestly would have struggled even in that tier, never mind against Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield etc

Golota was an absolute monster physically - very very quick, and incredibly powerful, it took someone who really should have been an ATG, to expose him, and to be fair, it was only real top drawer fighters that beat him. He wasn't mentally that tought, but not many managed to expose that.

The Lewis and Tyson performances really hurt him. But the Bowe fights were proper wars. It’s a shame people just think of those fights as just Bowe becoming over the hill, but they were tough battles! And Golota v Bryd was just a good top notch match.

Yeah he got badly smashed in both, but like I said, those guys were top tier. Later in his career he got bashed up a few more times, Michael Grant turned him over too.

Golota was a good technical fighter, wasn't just a crude brawler. Just watched the highlights of his first fight with Bowe, some lovely combination punching in there, great jab and quick hands too.

[SeanBrennan]

for me Tyson one of the best of his era. Crossover star, I don't agree with his comments on many matters, nor his PEDS, misuse of Hennessey etc, but as a fighter, cannot fault him. One of our best HWs ever for me.