Usyk in the all-time Heavyweight ranking

[apollo creed]

AJ or Fury would stop fighters like Louis, Marciano , Walcott, Baer, Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles. Only some delusional fanboys would think otherwise. I mean the modern fighters are much , much stronger, much smarter and much better technically. Its science and experience.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Much smarter? Hmmm - you think that Joshua is a smarter operator than Archie Moore?

Technically Moore and Ezzard charles were top Drawer, Marciano, despite his rep as a crude brawler, was a clever fioghter.

Fighting isn't science.

[Lenny Cravats]

He's a generational talent, for sure.

Ranking people on an all-time scale is horribly problematic, but just going from his foot speed, hand speed, chin, boxing IQ, accuracy and conditioning - he'd be a difficult man for anyone to beat.
He doesn't get as high in terms of resume as he does for the 'eye test'.... But he looks good enough to be in a serious discussion for a top 10-15 place in my book.

[klitoris]

If he beats Fury again in the rematch (which he will), he will surely end up in the top 5 of all time. At that point, I would just retire because nothing is left to prove for him. Maybe he will have one final goodbye fight in Ukraine at some point in the future against an easier opponent. Maybe fight someone like Rozanski for a Bridgerweight belt to become a three-division world champion (would be kind of cool).
He's already the best Cruiserweight of all time, above Evander.

[dempseyfire]

AJ or Fury would stop fighters like Louis, Marciano , Walcott, Baer, Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles. Only some delusional fanboys would think otherwise. I mean the modern fighters are much , much stronger, much smarter and much better technically. Its science and experience.

You are completely ignorant of the sport of boxing. That's the only valid response to such a juvenile, trollish post.

[dempseyfire]

More importantly than "Usyk would be the toughest that Louis or Marciano ever faced".

He's beaten 2 guys that are tougher than anyone they ever fought. Fury and Joshua would be favored to defeat every single opponent either one of them ever laced up their gloves against.

Beating Fury and Joshua is more impressive than beating Jersey Joe Walcott, Billy Conn, Max Baer, Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles. Objectively.

Whether you're a fan of those guys or not. It's impossible to imagine these behemoth Super Heavyweights with skills, not being a more difficult nights work than any of the other 5 I just mentioned.

Also, honestly. If you're doing an All Time Heavyweight ranking list. I'm pretty sure Fury and AJ would rank higher than all those guys. In some cases I know damn well they would.

Joshua got beaten from pillar to post by an obese 6'1 fighter with a 74 inch reach, but would obliterate Walcott, Bear and Moore? LOL OK . . .

Yes, he absolutely would.

Moore wouldn't even win a round against him.

Joshua has beaten Wladimir Klitschko, Joseph Parker, Alexander Povetkin.

All 3 of those guys are tougher than anybody Max Baer or Archie Moore EVER beat. At Heavyweight certainly. Moore's got some great wins at Light Heavyweight obviously, but we're talking Heavyweight here.

But who I think would beat who in matches we'll never to get see doesn't matter, and isn't how I rank guys anyway. The reason why AJ is better than those guys at Heavyweight is because he has the wins on his record that show it.

Joshua literally had a nervous breakdown in the ring and complained about being used to fighting bigger, slower guys after Usyk beat him in the rematch!!

Joshua is a solid athlete but basically Frank Bruno 2.0. Clarence Henry and Bob Baker, two heavyweights Moore beat, would've wiped the deck with him. As would have prime Charles, Bivins and a cruiserweight Harold Johnson.

[dempseyfire]

If he beats Fury again in the rematch (which he will), he will surely end up in the top 5 of all time. At that point, I would just retire because nothing is left to prove for him. Maybe he will have one final goodbye fight in Ukraine at some point in the future against an easier opponent. Maybe fight someone like Rozanski for a Bridgerweight belt to become a three-division world champion (would be kind of cool).
He's already the best Cruiserweight of all time, above Evander.

Cruiser is a tough division to rank because it's been more of a place for light heavies who strain to make weight than natural small heavyweights (who nearly always go to heavyweight to make more money). Comparing their cruiser resumes . . it's pretty similar in quality of comp. I personally would rank Qawi above Breidis as an opponent.

[KiwiRider]

He hasn't had enough fights to be top 15.
Remember those guys have had 50+ pro fights, all the championship fights were 15 rounders.
Those guys in the top 15 or so are there through survival and longevity, as well as skill and power.

[apollo creed]

There are lots of nostalgic fanboys but wake up! How the fuk an "ancient" fighter like Louis, Marciano or whoever from that period of time would beat a modern-trained big unit like AJ or Fury?!Now there are different ways of training, alimentations, strenght and conditioning, smart game plans and training camps, etc. Those fighters were good in their times but they pretty much were fighting local in US. Now the competition and the talent pool is much deeper because you got fighters from all over the world fighting each other. Stop with that nostalgic-trippin' crap.

[klitoris]

He hasn't had enough fights to be top 15.
Remember those guys have had 50+ pro fights, all the championship fights were 15 rounders.
Those guys in the top 15 or so are there through survival and longevity, as well as skill and power.

Marciano fought a bunch of bums for his first 25 fights. Usyk already beat an undefeated Glowacki in Poland for the WBO belt in his 10th fight. Plus, the dude spent his early days in the amateurs, winning gold at the Olympics. If you ask me what's more impressive, having some extra 20 wins from beating some bums vs having a gold at the World Championships and the Olympics, I'd choose the latter.

[JCS]

Is this the "time machine" argument? Is this about accomplishments? Something in between?

He has 6 matches at Heavyweight (by today's standards)..... and I'd say he was dominant in only two of them (Daniel Dubois, Chazz Witherspoon) and we know there was some controversy with Dubois... Add 1 to those numbers if you count his 2nd pro fight, just above the Cruiserweight limit... By this standard, he shouldn't even sniff a Top 20.

Are you including his Amateur achievements? Maybe a factor for IBHOF status..... I mean, they're not worthless, but in this case, I don't think we consider it.

Do we include his Cruiserweight accomplishments, as those fights would've been considered Heavyweight once upon a time? I don't know... that seems weird to me....

Use a time machine to take prime versions of all the top Heavyweight fighters... make some fantasy tournament. OK, I could see Usyk placing pretty well.

[margaret thatcher]

he dominated chazz witherspoon too

[margaret thatcher]

usyk is easily a hall of famer all ready , without factoring in amateurs

how often is a guy a two division undisputed champ + p4p #1 according to many people yet never included in the hall of fame?

[JCS]

he dominated chazz witherspoon too

Oops forgot that one.

[klitoris]

Is this the "time machine" argument? Is this about accomplishments? Something in between?

He has 6 matches at Heavyweight (by today's standards)..... and I'd say he was dominant in only two of them (Daniel Dubois, Chazz Witherspoon) and we know there was some controversy with Dubois... Add 1 to those numbers if you count his 2nd pro fight, just above the Cruiserweight limit... By this standard, he shouldn't even sniff a Top 20.

Are you including his Amateur achievements? Maybe a factor for IBHOF status..... I mean, they're not worthless, but in this case, I don't think we consider it.

Do we include his Cruiserweight accomplishments, as those fights would've been considered Heavyweight once upon a time? I don't know... that seems weird to me....

Use a time machine to take prime versions of all the top Heavyweight fighters... make some fantasy tournament. OK, I could see Usyk placing pretty well.

I'd argue he basically dominated AJ in the first fight, those scorecards were way too close. And really if it wasn't for the ref Fury wasn't far away from bring KTFO.

[coneye]

Hall of famer for sure , But greatest of all heavyweights , Mmmm not so sure about that one , best of his era which is poor for sure , DD and Fury have shown he does'nt like pressure , would his skills got him threw the pressure a big Goeorge Foreman , Ali , Mike Tyson , Norton , the power of Shavers , i'm not so sure they would

[Lackeos]

At one point, Wlad was looking to be like maybe #9-10ish in his prime. Fury beat Wlad, Wilder, and had no other losses. Usyk beat Fury, Joshua, and had no losses. Usyk has gotta be something like 6 or 7 at this point.

One knock against modern heavyweights, at least on paper, is that their lack of key wins compared to past heavyweights. Tyson beat like James Tillis, Marvis Frazier, Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock. Not to mention the extensive quality wins of Larry Holmes or Lennox Lewis.
The quantity of good wins for Fury, Usyk, and Wilder is not so extensive. Even Wlad and Joshua only have around... I guess maybe 4 or 5 good wins of that caliber against Povetkin Pulev Haye types.

[Lackeos]

Do we include his Cruiserweight accomplishments, as those fights would've been considered Heavyweight once upon a time? I don't know... that seems weird to me....

And do you include the fights where Dempsey / Marciano / Louis / Johnson were fighting opponents who weighed less than 200 pounds? Oops, there goes their whole resume. Cruiserweights weigh like 215 pounds on fight night after rehydrating. Marciano's record against opponents who weighed above 215 pounds was 3-0. And I don't think Bill Wilson / Johnny Shkor / Humphrey Jackson would hardly be considered career defining wins for a legendary heavyweight. I reckon Derek Chisora and Daniel Dubois are easily, easily better than whoever Bill Wilson is.

[Lackeos]

He hasn't had enough fights to be top 15.
Remember those guys have had 50+ pro fights, all the championship fights were 15 rounders.
Those guys in the top 15 or so are there through survival and longevity, as well as skill and power.

You're right. That's why I can't, in good conscience, rank someone like Naoya Inoue, with a pathetic 27 pro fights, and Vasyl Lomachenko with his practically non-existent 21 pro fights, among the greats like Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. (53-6-1) and random ass Thai boxers like Sirichai Thaiyen (65-5), Suriyan Kaikanha (51-7-1), Sirimongkhon Iamthuam (98-5).

[KiwiRider]

He hasn't had enough fights to be top 15.
Remember those guys have had 50+ pro fights, all the championship fights were 15 rounders.
Those guys in the top 15 or so are there through survival and longevity, as well as skill and power.

Marciano fought a bunch of bums for his first 25 fights. Usyk already beat an undefeated Glowacki in Poland for the WBO belt in his 10th fight. Plus, the dude spent his early days in the amateurs, winning gold at the Olympics. If you ask me what's more impressive, having some extra 20 wins from beating some bums vs having a gold at the World Championships and the Olympics, I'd choose the latter.

The thread is about HW all time, your listing cruiser and amateur achievements.
His HW resume is Joshua x 2, Fury, and DDD. Its good, but hardly legendary.
The conversation should be cruiser ATG because in that newer division he ranks very highly.

[margaret thatcher]

He hasn't had enough fights to be top 15.
Remember those guys have had 50+ pro fights, all the championship fights were 15 rounders.
Those guys in the top 15 or so are there through survival and longevity, as well as skill and power.

Marciano fought a bunch of bums for his first 25 fights. Usyk already beat an undefeated Glowacki in Poland for the WBO belt in his 10th fight. Plus, the dude spent his early days in the amateurs, winning gold at the Olympics. If you ask me what's more impressive, having some extra 20 wins from beating some bums vs having a gold at the World Championships and the Olympics, I'd choose the latter.

The thread is about HW all time, your listing cruiser and amateur achievements.
His HW resume is Joshua x 2, Fury, and DDD. Its good, but hardly legendary.
The conversation should be cruiser ATG because in that newer division he ranks very highly.

well it's an awkward thing because at cruiser he faced guys who were around 6'2 and probably around 210 in the ring. in many eras, all his opponents would be hw size, big hws too. usyk himself is around the same size as prime 'big' george foreman and comfortably bigger than 'giant' jack johnson

whereas many past greats had bouts vs guys like 180 pounds on fight day. as mentioned, jack johnson won his hw title from a 5'7 167 pounder and gets credit for beating 156 pound sam langford (who was barely 20) - that's like welterweight size. marciano got his title shot by beating 179 pound, 5'11 harry matthews. that's like a super middle weight today. dempsey made only one defense vs someone at least 200 pounds, and had challengers as low as 172. for comparison, jaime munguia was 176 in the ring for junior welter fights

funny how it works that the 180 pounders count as hw opponents, but the bigger guys dont. on the other hand, we dont rank past hw greats like marciano and co at cruiser even though many of their opponents were that size (or even smaller), so it goes both ways and it's a reflection of how massively the landscapes changed

id say ya resume wise usyk has some resume issues that make it hard to rank him in the absolute highest tier, but his top wins are impressive and he's shown enough to be ranked very highly on ability and his potential to be successful in other eras. i think 15 rounds wouldve worked wwell for him too.

[KiwiRider]

Marciano fought a bunch of bums for his first 25 fights. Usyk already beat an undefeated Glowacki in Poland for the WBO belt in his 10th fight. Plus, the dude spent his early days in the amateurs, winning gold at the Olympics. If you ask me what's more impressive, having some extra 20 wins from beating some bums vs having a gold at the World Championships and the Olympics, I'd choose the latter.

The thread is about HW all time, your listing cruiser and amateur achievements.
His HW resume is Joshua x 2, Fury, and DDD. Its good, but hardly legendary.
The conversation should be cruiser ATG because in that newer division he ranks very highly.

well it's an awkward thing because at cruiser he faced guys who were around 6'2 and probably around 210 in the ring. in many eras, all his opponents would be hw size, big hws too. usyk himself is around the same size as prime 'big' george foreman and comfortably bigger than 'giant' jack johnson

whereas many past greats had bouts vs guys like 180 pounds on fight day. as mentioned, jack johnson won his hw title from a 5'7 167 pounder and gets credit for beating 156 pound sam langford (who was barely 20) - that's like welterweight size. marciano got his title shot by beating 179 pound, 5'11 harry matthews. that's like a super middle weight today

funny how it works that the 180 pounders count as hw opponents, but the bigger guys dont. on the other hand, we dont rank past hw greats like marciano and co at cruiser even though many of their opponents were that size (or even smaller), so it goes both ways and it's a reflection of how massively the landscapes changed

id say ya resume wise usyk has some resume issues that make it hard to rank him in the absolute highest tier, but his top wins are impressive and he's shown enough to be ranked very highly on ability and his potential to be successful in other eras. i think 15 rounds wouldve worked wwell for him too.

Good post Mags
Yes it is tricky. But tall and heavy is the landscape right now. And Uysk has been top tier for a year. Its just not enough, and at 37 he may he only a blip on the landscape.

[gilgamesh]

Joshua got beaten from pillar to post by an obese 6'1 fighter with a 74 inch reach, but would obliterate Walcott, Bear and Moore? LOL OK . . .

Yes, he absolutely would.

Moore wouldn't even win a round against him.

Joshua has beaten Wladimir Klitschko, Joseph Parker, Alexander Povetkin.

All 3 of those guys are tougher than anybody Max Baer or Archie Moore EVER beat. At Heavyweight certainly. Moore's got some great wins at Light Heavyweight obviously, but we're talking Heavyweight here.

But who I think would beat who in matches we'll never to get see doesn't matter, and isn't how I rank guys anyway. The reason why AJ is better than those guys at Heavyweight is because he has the wins on his record that show it.

Joshua literally had a nervous breakdown in the ring and complained about being used to fighting bigger, slower guys after Usyk beat him in the rematch!!

Joshua is a solid athlete but basically Frank Bruno 2.0. Clarence Henry and Bob Baker, two heavyweights Moore beat, would've wiped the deck with him. As would have prime Charles, Bivins and a cruiserweight Harold Johnson.

Joshua is far more accomplished than Frank Bruno already. I get that you're a fan of the Old School guys, but I mean...Clarence Henry and Bob Baker would beat Anthony Joshua?

Hey you're welcome to your opinion buddy. No matter how ridiculous.

[JCS]

And do you include the fights where Dempsey / Marciano / Louis / Johnson were fighting opponents who weighed less than 200 pounds?

Yes, because that was considered Heavyweight at that time.

[gilgamesh]

And do you include the fights where Dempsey / Marciano / Louis / Johnson were fighting opponents who weighed less than 200 pounds?

Yes, because that was considered Heavyweight at that time.

Hell if you didn't include guys that weighed less than 200 pounds you couldn't even include Marciano, Dempsey and Louis themselves as they were regularly in the high 180's and 190's themselves.

All 3 of those guys have wins on their record over guys that were exceptionally tall, and significantly outweighed them too.