Lennox Lewis v USYK

[The Docker]

I can live with that.

Surely that would mean he was boxing other juiced to the gills fighters, sort of balances the books for me and not cooks them.

[ironbeard]

In other words, when comparing athletes of other eras to that era, the athletes of the other eras must be imagined totally juiced or the athletes of that era must be imagined facing current and past circumstances.

[The Docker]

In other words, when comparing athletes of other eras to that era, the athletes of the other eras must be imagined totally juiced or the athletes of that era must be imagined facing current and past circumstances.

If that makes sense to you, then yeah roll with it.

[ironbeard]

I can live with that.

Surely that would mean he was boxing other juiced to the gills fighters, sort of balances the books for me and not cooks them.

It does not balance eras. Now imagine a freak of nature like Fury juiced to the gills.

Usyk v Holyfield would have been a great fight in either era, both juiced or not. Stop leaving the asterisk out. Fury and AJ would have been competitive in any era.

[The Docker]

I can live with that.

Surely that would mean he was boxing other juiced to the gills fighters, sort of balances the books for me and not cooks them.

It does not balance eras. Now imagine a freak of nature like Fury juiced to the gills.

Usyk v Holyfield would have been a great fight in either era, both juiced or not. Stop leaving the asterisk out. Fury and AJ would have been competitive in any era.

Yeah because he's definitely not done anything suspicious....

[ironbeard]

I can live with that.

Surely that would mean he was boxing other juiced to the gills fighters, sort of balances the books for me and not cooks them.

It does not balance eras. Now imagine a freak of nature like Fury juiced to the gills.

Usyk v Holyfield would have been a great fight in either era, both juiced or not. Stop leaving the asterisk out. Fury and AJ would have been competitive in any era.

Yeah because he's definitely not done anything suspicious....

Whatever he has done pales in comparison to what Holyfield got away with.

[The Docker]

It does not balance eras. Now imagine a freak of nature like Fury juiced to the gills.

Usyk v Holyfield would have been a great fight in either era, both juiced or not. Stop leaving the asterisk out. Fury and AJ would have been competitive in any era.

Yeah because he's definitely not done anything suspicious....

Whatever he has done pales in comparison to what Holyfield got away with.

So we're now down to a drug dick measuring contest.

I have Lewis to beat Usyk and Holyfield to beat Usyk too, and yes I will sleep tonight.

[ironbeard]

Yeah because he's definitely not done anything suspicious....

Whatever he has done pales in comparison to what Holyfield got away with.

So we're now down to a drug dick measuring contest.

I have Lewis to beat Usyk and Holyfield to beat Usyk too, and yes I will sleep tonight.

Potentially they would both beat him, and potentially the undefeated current World’s Champion Boxer would do what he has always done; find a way to get the W.

[gilgamesh]

It does not balance eras. Now imagine a freak of nature like Fury juiced to the gills.

Usyk v Holyfield would have been a great fight in either era, both juiced or not. Stop leaving the asterisk out. Fury and AJ would have been competitive in any era.

Yeah because he's definitely not done anything suspicious....

Whatever he has done pales in comparison to what Holyfield got away with.

I don't recall Holyfield failing one PED test.

So Holyfield's entire reputation as a juicer is based on assumptions by you guys?

[margaret thatcher]

ya i wonder who those peds, sent to one evan fields, at evander holyfields address, were for

not that using peds would set him apart much from other top hws....

[gilgamesh]

ya i wonder who those peds, sent to one evan fields, at evander holyfields address, were for

not that using peds would set him apart much from other top hws....

It was proven he had stuff sent to his address?

That's a serious question, I haven't heard this.

I know fans bandy about this stuff, but to me. Either prove it 100% or don't act as if it's a definite that the guy did it.

Also I think I've established before. Even IF he did it. I personally wouldn't give a f*ck

Just like I wouldn't care if I found out every Athlete in every sport was currently on something.

[Controversial]

ya i wonder who those peds, sent to one evan fields, at evander holyfields address, were for

not that using peds would set him apart much from other top hws....

It was proven he had stuff sent to his address?

That's a serious question, I haven't heard this.

I know fans bandy about this stuff, but to me. Either prove it 100% or don't act as if it's a definite that the guy did it.

Also I think I've established before. Even IF he did it. I personally wouldn't give a f*ck

Just like I wouldn't care if I found out every Athlete in every sport was currently on something.

As far back as the early ’90s fingers were pointed at Holyfield with regards to him having bulked up with the aid of PEDs. And then, more recently, there was the now infamous “Evan Fields” episode. During a 2007 investigation of the company Applied Pharmacy Services, of Alabama, it was discovered how a customer named Evan Fields was buying steroids. A phone call was placed to the number of Fields and, low and behold, Holyfield picked up! Instantly denying any wrong doing, the former four-time heavyweight champ stated that the medication was for his dad, who had a heart condition (and is now deceased).

Source: Evander Holyfield Speaks Out On The Infamous “Evan Fields” Episode • East Side Boxing • News Archives (https://www.boxing247.com/weblog/archives/133765)

[jamesmcdonnell]

ya i wonder who those peds, sent to one evan fields, at evander holyfields address, were for

not that using peds would set him apart much from other top hws....

It was proven he had stuff sent to his address?

That's a serious question, I haven't heard this.

I know fans bandy about this stuff, but to me. Either prove it 100% or don't act as if it's a definite that the guy did it.

Also I think I've established before. Even IF he did it. I personally wouldn't give a f*ck

Just like I wouldn't care if I found out every Athlete in every sport was currently on something.

Yes, the balco scandal. He was caught bang to rights - a client by the name of 'evan fields' was listed on balco's records with the same date of birth, address and home phone number as Holyfield - an undercover journalist even called the number, and asked for 'evan fields' and Holyfield said 'yeah, you're talking to him.' I don't know how much more evidence is required really, he was clearly on the gear.

You also need to look at his physique - and compare it to his younger days - he packed on about 40 pounds of solid muscle without gaining any body fat - and he also has absolutely hugely developed trapezius muscles, which is a dead give away for synthetic testostrone use - as it his relatively dramatic baldness.

I think many were on the gear, but Holyfield's training was very scientific, and I surmise that he was probably on a much more highly developed regimen than many of his counterparts.

Whilst there is probably more doping going on now in sports, than ever - you can't get away with taking synthetic testosterone any more - some of the records set by athletes in the 1980's may never be beaten - Flo Jo's record in the 100m, incredibly is coming into sight - Flo Jo was very obviously taking testosterone, and you could see the dramatic changes in her performances, her musculature, and her face especially - when they brought in out of competition testing, she immediately retired from athletics, and her husband was well known to be heavily involved in doping.

The one which really stands out, is Kratotchvilova's 800m record, - and the 2nd place time, also set in the early 80's. Not even Kasta Semenya, who is intersex, was able to get close to it, such were the massive doses of Testosterone being doled out to female eastern bloc athletes - Kratochvilova always maintained her innocence, and remarkably, despite the uncovering of records detailing the state sponsored doping programs during that time, there's no mention of her or her coach in those records. However, the fact she didn't become a force until the age of 27, and ran her record time at the age of 32, is very much in line with what we see from doped athletes.

https://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_800ok.htm

The landscape has changed now for doping, and synthetic testosterone is really still the gold standard for producing startliong improvements in strength, endurance and performance.

That all said, I still love Holyfield, as clearly does Usyk, did anybody see the clip of the two hugging backstage before the fight, Usyk walked off with his arms up in the air, like a little kid, it was great to see.

[Controversial]

His S&C coach Lee Haney talking about how they added 20lbs of muscle to Holyfield in five weeks.
Haney was 8 x Mr Olympia winner.

[ironbeard]

Yeah because he's definitely not done anything suspicious....

Whatever he has done pales in comparison to what Holyfield got away with.

I don't recall Holyfield failing one PED test.

So Holyfield's entire reputation as a juicer is based on assumptions by you guys?

There is plenty of evidence, as there is of Barry Bond’s clearly juicing.

[ironbeard]

Yeah because he's definitely not done anything suspicious....

Whatever he has done pales in comparison to what Holyfield got away with.

I don't recall Holyfield failing one PED test.

So Holyfield's entire reputation as a juicer is based on assumptions by you guys?

The evidence is clear, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Whatever he has done pales in comparison to what Holyfield got away with.

I don't recall Holyfield failing one PED test.

So Holyfield's entire reputation as a juicer is based on assumptions by you guys?

The evidence is clear, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I don't see how anybody with even 1 brain cell could argue otherwise.

[ironbeard]

I don't recall Holyfield failing one PED test.

So Holyfield's entire reputation as a juicer is based on assumptions by you guys?

The evidence is clear, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I don't see how anybody with even 1 brain cell could argue otherwise.

gil is a smart guy. He knows boxing history better than I do. I doubt he was aware of the preponderance of evidence.

[gilgamesh]

Yeah I simply wasn't aware of the Evidence. The stuff that you guys pointed out definitely points to he was certainly on something.

That being said. Now that I know that. I still don't care. There's always that.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yeah I simply wasn't aware of the Evidence. The stuff that you guys pointed out definitely points to he was certainly on something.

That being said. Now that I know that. I still don't care. There's always that.

I'm sort of in the same camp - I love Holyfield - I know he was roided to the gills, but I also know he wasn't alone in that, and I don't believe they were solely resonsible for his considerable success.

[ironbeard]

Yeah I simply wasn't aware of the Evidence. The stuff that you guys pointed out definitely points to he was certainly on something.

That being said. Now that I know that. I still don't care. There's always that.

I'm sort of in the same camp - I love Holyfield - I know he was roided to the gills, but I also know he wasn't alone in that, and I don't believe they were solely resonsible for his considerable success.

Completely agree. It was not Holyfield. It was the era; an era Usyk would be competitive at the highest level in, just as Holyfield would in this era.

[gilgamesh]

Would it be harder to get away with juicing now though? Like has testing advanced since the 90's? I'm sure it has.

I honestly think Holyfield was a great fighter anyway, it's just a thought that came to mind.

[polecateddy]

There’s probably some irony then in one of the biggest mma steroid cheats beating probably one of the biggest heavyweight PED users in Belfort v Holyfield. Although only one of them is deemed ‘the bad guy.’

[DrDuke]

Would it be harder to get away with juicing now though? Like has testing advanced since the 90's? I'm sure it has.

I honestly think Holyfield was a great fighter anyway, it's just a thought that came to mind.

Today hiding the juicing is definitely easier. Look how Vitali Klit got caught on PEDs in the amateurs, when he was on the poor drugs of the post-Soviet medicine. And how both Klits, the two physical monsters, avoided being caught during their pro careers, while they were on the advanced German drugs.

Look how the bodybuilder Joshua remains "clean" for all this time. He had tones of money invested in him.

[polecateddy]

In terms of cowboy sports if say strong man, bodybuilding, armwrestling etc are in the first tier with no testing, boxing must be in the next tier where there in some testing, but it’s often by-passed and proper enforcement is rare.