Usyk in the all-time Heavyweight ranking

[margaret thatcher]

hw fights vs guys in the 150s and 160s (on fight day), what a time

[gilgamesh]

hw fights vs guys in the 150s and 160s (on fight day), what a time

Other than maybe Jack Johnson vs Tommy Burns I can't think of too many other Heavyweights that this would apply to.

Perhaps Dempsey vs Carpentier?

But I mean...most Heavyweight challengers of the era were at least 180 pounds surely.

[margaret thatcher]

jack gets big hw credit for beating a 5'7 156 pound, 20 year old sam langford. one of his most famous wins was over 170 pound career middleweight stan ketchel. another of his most famous opponents, bob fitzimmons, weighed 164 on fight day shortly before facing jack. a few others in the 160s too.

but ya, more commingly past greats fought guys in 170s and 180s. that's on fight day, so like junior middle size up to light heavyweights today

i get it, these were technically hw fights, usyk's cruiser fight were technically cruiser fights. we also dont rank guys like marciano, dempsey, etc as great cruiserweights despite their oppponent size. but none the less it's a bit funny to hear these count for rating HW careers, but usyk beating guys like 6'2 210 pounds doesnt.

[apollo creed]

Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Moore, Charles,Liston would have a hard time competing with the modern big-powerful units like AJ or Fury. Different eras!

Even the more recent fighters like Tyson, Buster Douglas and Tucker would struggle vs Fury. Prime vs Prime, whatever.

[gilgamesh]

jack gets big hw credit for beating a 5'7 156 pound, 20 year old sam langford. one of his most famous wins was over 170 pound career middleweight stan ketchel. another of his most famous opponents, bob fitzimmons, weighed 164 on fight day shortly before facing jack. a few others in the 160s too.

but ya, more commingly past greats fought guys in 170s and 180s. that's on fight day, so like junior middle size up to light heavyweights today

i get it, these were technically hw fights, usyk's cruiser fight were technically cruiser fights. we also dont rank guys like marciano, dempsey, etc as great cruiserweights despite their oppponent size. but none the less it's a bit funny to hear these count for rating HW careers, but usyk beating guys like 6'2 210 pounds doesnt.

For what it's worth I don't rate Jack Johnson above all that many guys anyway historically. He wouldn't be in my Top 10. Probably not my Top 20 either.

Like Liston, he beat many of his toughest opponents before ever becoming Champion.

[gilgamesh]

Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Moore, Charles,Liston would have a hard time competing with the modern big-powerful units like AJ or Fury. Different eras!

Even the more recent fighters like Tyson, Buster Douglas and Tucker would struggle vs Fury. Prime vs Prime, whatever.

They probably would, but ultimately you can't rate guys on how they'd do against guys from another era because you'll never know the answer. All you can do is see how their achievements in their time stack up side by side against the achievements of the guys now.

For instance. I have a hard time imagining that Rocky Marciano could've defeated David Tua, but Marciano still rates well above Tua because he accomplished more in his era than David did in his.

I agree with you though that Mike Tyson would definitely struggle with the modern Big Men because he always struggled with tall fighters anyway.

[apollo creed]

Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Moore, Charles,Liston would have a hard time competing with the modern big-powerful units like AJ or Fury. Different eras!

Even the more recent fighters like Tyson, Buster Douglas and Tucker would struggle vs Fury. Prime vs Prime, whatever.

They probably would, but ultimately you can't rate guys on how they'd do against guys from another era because you'll never know the answer. All you can do is see how their achievements in their time stack up side by side against the achievements of the guys now.

For instance. I have a hard time imagining that Rocky Marciano could've defeated David Tua, but Marciano still rates well above Tua because he accomplished more in his era than David did in his.

I agree with you though that Mike Tyson would definitely struggle with the modern Big Men because he always struggled with tall fighters anyway.

I agree with you too.

Btw, based on this nostalgic analogy of the past boxing champions being the greater one's, then Diagoras of Rhodes would beat every boxing champion mentioned in this thread. lol

[dempseyfire]

There are lots of nostalgic fanboys but wake up! How the fuk an "ancient" fighter like Louis, Marciano or whoever from that period of time would beat a modern-trained big unit like AJ or Fury?!Now there are different ways of training, alimentations, strenght and conditioning, smart game plans and training camps, etc. Those fighters were good in their times but they pretty much were fighting local in US. Now the competition and the talent pool is much deeper because you got fighters from all over the world fighting each other. Stop with that nostalgic-trippin' crap.

Again, this contention is laughable given Joshua was KTFO by a literally obese small heavyweight. And yes you had fighters from all over the world in the 1920s-50s, and far more fighters equalling a deeper talent pool.

[gilgamesh]

There are lots of nostalgic fanboys but wake up! How the fuk an "ancient" fighter like Louis, Marciano or whoever from that period of time would beat a modern-trained big unit like AJ or Fury?!Now there are different ways of training, alimentations, strenght and conditioning, smart game plans and training camps, etc. Those fighters were good in their times but they pretty much were fighting local in US. Now the competition and the talent pool is much deeper because you got fighters from all over the world fighting each other. Stop with that nostalgic-trippin' crap.

Again, this contention is laughable given Joshua was KTFO by a literally obese small heavyweight. And yes you had fighters from all over the world in the 1920s-50s, and far more fighters equalling a deeper talent pool.

Jack Dempsey couldn't beat "Fat" Willie Meehan either.

[dempseyfire]

At one point, Wlad was looking to be like maybe #9-10ish in his prime. Fury beat Wlad, Wilder, and had no other losses. Usyk beat Fury, Joshua, and had no losses. Usyk has gotta be something like 6 or 7 at this point.

One knock against modern heavyweights, at least on paper, is that their lack of key wins compared to past heavyweights. Tyson beat like James Tillis, Marvis Frazier, Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock. Not to mention the extensive quality wins of Larry Holmes or Lennox Lewis.
The quantity of good wins for Fury, Usyk, and Wilder is not so extensive. Even Wlad and Joshua only have around... I guess maybe 4 or 5 good wins of that caliber against Povetkin Pulev Haye types.

Klitschko was 40 when he lost to Fury in literally one of the worst Heavyweight title fights of all time. It was Ruiz-Oquendo levels of terrible.

I was far from a Klitschko fan but his resume beats any post-Lennox heavyweight by miles.

[apollo creed]

There are lots of nostalgic fanboys but wake up! How the fuk an "ancient" fighter like Louis, Marciano or whoever from that period of time would beat a modern-trained big unit like AJ or Fury?!Now there are different ways of training, alimentations, strenght and conditioning, smart game plans and training camps, etc. Those fighters were good in their times but they pretty much were fighting local in US. Now the competition and the talent pool is much deeper because you got fighters from all over the world fighting each other. Stop with that nostalgic-trippin' crap.

Again, this contention is laughable given Joshua was KTFO by a literally obese small heavyweight. And yes you had fighters from all over the world in the 1920s-50s, and far more fighters equalling a deeper talent pool.

That fat fighter was a very skilled and strong fighter and he had/has probably one of the fastest hands in the HW division. Look at his fight with Parker. You are getting deceived by his body but Andy was at that time a very dangerous fighter.

That version of Andy that beat AJ is a bad, bad, dangerous mofo!

[apollo creed]

At one point, Wlad was looking to be like maybe #9-10ish in his prime. Fury beat Wlad, Wilder, and had no other losses. Usyk beat Fury, Joshua, and had no losses. Usyk has gotta be something like 6 or 7 at this point.

One knock against modern heavyweights, at least on paper, is that their lack of key wins compared to past heavyweights. Tyson beat like James Tillis, Marvis Frazier, Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock. Not to mention the extensive quality wins of Larry Holmes or Lennox Lewis.
The quantity of good wins for Fury, Usyk, and Wilder is not so extensive. Even Wlad and Joshua only have around... I guess maybe 4 or 5 good wins of that caliber against Povetkin Pulev Haye types.

Klitschko was 40 when he lost to Fury in literally one of the worst Heavyweight title fights of all time. It was Ruiz-Oquendo levels of terrible.

I was far from a Klitschko fan but his resume beats any post-Lennox heavyweight by miles.

That 39-40 y/o version of Wlad would've hammered with his jab the living s.hit of those "ancient" fighter that you worship. Its common sense. You know it! You can't compare a 2014-2015 AMG G Wagon with a 50's Eldorado!

[KiwiRider]

Uysk has fought 5 heavies:
A journeyman, a contender, a gatekeeper, a champion twice, and the other champion once.


That's his entire heavyweight resume.

To put that in perspective of another cruiser moving up, Holyfield had 40 heavyweight fights.

[Lackeos]

And do you include the fights where Dempsey / Marciano / Louis / Johnson were fighting opponents who weighed less than 200 pounds?

Yes, because that was considered Heavyweight at that time.

And the considerations of that time affect the reality of pounds and inches how?

[JCS]

And do you include the fights where Dempsey / Marciano / Louis / Johnson were fighting opponents who weighed less than 200 pounds?

Yes, because that was considered Heavyweight at that time.

And the considerations of that time affect the reality of pounds and inches how?

If you're trying to make a point, I'm not following..

[DrDuke]

I'd place Usyk in the top 10. I can't see him higher Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson.

I'm not sold on the long streaks of Louis and Klitschko, those were in a comparably weak eras.

[Crease]

Joe Louis did have a superior run to Marciano’s, including a W over Buddy Baer (the era’s hybrid AJ/Fury), but if you review his “bum a month club” it is largely the same level comp as Marciano faced.

I would strongly dispute that. In Joe's 1941 BOTM campaign, he faced top contenders of his time, and fair play to him for doing it I give him top respect for it. But The Rock's title reign? Five of his fights were against World Champions and guys who would also gointo the boxing Hall of Fame (Walcott x2, Charles x2, Moore x1) that is of an incredibly high standard and above the level of Joe's exploits.

Usyk would have been the toughest opponent that Louis or Marciano ever faced.

Yeah, I would probably agree with that. But has Usyk ever fought a Rocky Marciano or a Joe Louis? I really don't think so.

Edit: with the possible exception of Marciano for Louis. Louis was well past it when he faced Marciano, though.

This is often peddled to try and lower the value of The Rock's victory. The fact is - Joe Louis was on an 8-eight win streak from the previous 11 months...

[Crease]

Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Moore, Charles,Liston would have a hard time competing with the modern big-powerful units like AJ or Fury. Different eras!

Modern days fighters have the benefits of supplements and sports science on their side... The older fighters relied solely on their guts, they were tougher men, physically and mentality.

[Crease]

Uysk has fought 5 heavies:
A journeyman, a contender, a gatekeeper, a champion twice, and the other champion once. That's his entire heavyweight resume. To put that in perspective of another cruiser moving up, Holyfield had 40 heavyweight fights.

Quality over quantity. mate. How many of Evander HW fights were truly meaningful?

[KiwiRider]

Uysk has fought 5 heavies:
A journeyman, a contender, a gatekeeper, a champion twice, and the other champion once. That's his entire heavyweight resume. To put that in perspective of another cruiser moving up, Holyfield had 40 heavyweight fights.

Quality over quantity. mate. How many of Evander HW fights were truly meaningful?

More about a legacy, getting to the top and staying there. Uysk might achieve it, but I think he may retire within a year.
He also is getting niggling injuries.
If you look at the last 50 years of the division, Uysk so far is just a blip. Flash in the pan, fart in a jar etc.

[gilgamesh]

Uysk has fought 5 heavies:
A journeyman, a contender, a gatekeeper, a champion twice, and the other champion once. That's his entire heavyweight resume. To put that in perspective of another cruiser moving up, Holyfield had 40 heavyweight fights.

Quality over quantity. mate. How many of Evander HW fights were truly meaningful?

More about a legacy, getting to the top and staying there. Uysk might achieve it, but I think he may retire within a year.
He also is getting niggling injuries.
If you look at the last 50 years of the division, Uysk so far is just a blip. Flash in the pan, fart in a jar etc.

The last 50 years takes us back to Muhammad Ali and his win in Zaire.

So we've got Ali, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko's, and Tyson Fury.

That's the list of names of guys that have won either universal or widely accepted lineage as THE Heavyweight Champion. Usyk rates above both of the Spinks brothers, and certainly Vitali. He undoubtedly has a better career than Buster Douglas, Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe.

He has 3 wins better than any win on Mike Tyson's record.

He beat Tyson Fury head to head so he'd have to rate above him.

That leaves only Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko as the company he's in.

None of the titleholders who didn't gain universal recognition as Heavyweight Champion can hold a candle to Usyk so they're not worth a mention here.

[apollo creed]

Quality over quantity. mate. How many of Evander HW fights were truly meaningful?

More about a legacy, getting to the top and staying there. Uysk might achieve it, but I think he may retire within a year.
He also is getting niggling injuries.
If you look at the last 50 years of the division, Uysk so far is just a blip. Flash in the pan, fart in a jar etc.

The last 50 years takes us back to Muhammad Ali and his win in Zaire.

So we've got Ali, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko's, and Tyson Fury.

That's the list of names of guys that have won either universal or widely accepted lineage as THE Heavyweight Champion. Usyk rates above both of the Spinks brothers, and certainly Vitali. He undoubtedly has a better career than Buster Douglas, Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe.

He has 3 wins better than any win on Mike Tyson's record.

He beat Tyson Fury head to head so he'd have to rate above him.

That leaves only Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko as the company he's in.

None of the titleholders who didn't gain universal recognition as Heavyweight Champion can hold a candle to Usyk so they're not worth a mention here.

Very good analogy. End of the story. Quality over quantity. People forget that Usyk is an older fighter than Fury and AJ!

Also I think some people can't accept that an eastern european fighter is the unified HW champion of the world.

[joshj909]

More about a legacy, getting to the top and staying there. Uysk might achieve it, but I think he may retire within a year.
He also is getting niggling injuries.
If you look at the last 50 years of the division, Uysk so far is just a blip. Flash in the pan, fart in a jar etc.

The last 50 years takes us back to Muhammad Ali and his win in Zaire.

So we've got Ali, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko's, and Tyson Fury.

That's the list of names of guys that have won either universal or widely accepted lineage as THE Heavyweight Champion. Usyk rates above both of the Spinks brothers, and certainly Vitali. He undoubtedly has a better career than Buster Douglas, Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe.

He has 3 wins better than any win on Mike Tyson's record.

He beat Tyson Fury head to head so he'd have to rate above him.

That leaves only Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko as the company he's in.

None of the titleholders who didn't gain universal recognition as Heavyweight Champion can hold a candle to Usyk so they're not worth a mention here.

Very good analogy. End of the story. Quality over quantity. People forget that Usyk is an older fighter than Fury and AJ!

Also I think some people can't accept that an eastern european fighter is the unified HW champion of the world.

Nostalgia merchants

[594322]

He needs to finish his career. Then we can thinking abut his place.

[gilgamesh]

It would be interesting to see how a loss to Fury in the rematch would affect how Usyk is currently viewed. Some people would rate him lower simply for losing the 0, but if it's another close decision that this time goes Fury's way I don't think that would be a loss that would really lower his standing much.

A one sided beatdown would I suppose, but I'd be pretty surprised if it went down like that.

Who knows maybe Usyk will still be fighting in 2030 and surprise us all.